CO Word of the Week #5

[G315t]

I apologize for the formulation of my response above. My intent was to point out that while we do our best to improve the game we will never be able to please absolutely everyone. We are fixing bugs and improving the game combining our vision with the feedback and bug reports we're getting from you, the community.

As I said it's disappointing we weren't able to meet the expectations that were set by the stellar marketing campaign and the success of the first game. However working together with you is the best part of creating games, and together we can make Cities: Skylines II the best it can be. I truly believe that.

It already is a good game. And I'm positive that when the major bugs are sorted out the reviews and player numbers will change to the better too. I personaly will not go back to CS1 because CS2 obviously IS the better base game in many ways.

 

[TrevorHall]

That is quite unclear. There are a handful of gameplay and simulation issues that might be considered bugs, but might not, which someone publishing under Paradox ought to ensure will be fixed. If you say you set goals and are unopen to goals based on player feedback, that is how you sink a series unless you are Electronic Arts and spend many times more on marketing to cover it up - in the context of a monopoly - than it would cost to fix it.

Notably:

• The educational system is fundamentally broken. You have infants going immediately to elementary school and tending toward 20% of the population, long term, being enrolled in elementary school. That is about equivalent to the amount of the population in an advanced economy that is under 18 years old. If we overuse the elementary compared to high school and place kids 5-13 in there, it should only be 10.95% for the United States and even less for Europe. It currently is reflective of a society that only recently industrialized and drastically reduced child mortality and is still adjusting the number of children people have. I also have a constant lack of college students despite the only jobs being available are half of the well educated jobs - you promised that people would go to school for economic opportunity.
• Traffic isn't simulated correctly as there is no meaningful spacing or difference in lane speeds, and everything gets held up at a bottleneck as everyone gets off at once across all lanes. Cars do not merge in at an angle, but rather turn 90 degrees toward the lane they want then turn 90 degrees again to level out, including semi trucks. Note that one lane going faster than others is precisely how people can safely change lanes - you can get in front of or behind someone and merge in at an angle - I don't think it is higher than 22.5 degrees when you do.

Are you considering these bugs that you will still be working on fixing or are you standing behind poor design choices and simply declaring that you met your goals?

I 100% agree with the freeway merging mess. I didn't want to waste my time filing yet another version of the bug, but basically: All cars do something similar to (British) 3-point turn or (American) "turn in a road" which involves reversing on the freeway. That's both stupid and illegal, and leads to endless traffic accidents. Why don't these idiots get $5,000 tickets and get their cars towed away? Merge should be done over about 5-10 car lengths, at a slight angle, as suggested.

 

[unmerged(524934)]

But you released the game anyway.

That's the one point they can't get away from, no matter how hard they try - the game was released too early. @co_martsu is at least sticking her head above the parapet here which deserves credit, conversely I've not seen anything from the publisher themselves relating to the state the game was launched in and why it was allowed to be sent into the wild in that state - where's their acknowledgment of responsibility in all this mess?

 

[Mazisky]

once the bugs are fixed and some "hard" mode without failsafes is implemented, i think the majority of opinions about the game will be 100% positive

 

[purplegamer]

I apologize for the formulation of my response above. My intent was to point out that while we do our best to improve the game we will never be able to please absolutely everyone. We are fixing bugs and improving the game combining our vision with the feedback and bug reports we're getting from you, the community.

As I said it's disappointing we weren't able to meet the expectations that were set by the stellar marketing campaign and the success of the first game. However working together with you is the best part of creating games, and together we can make Cities: Skylines II the best it can be. I truly believe that.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on what you intended to communicate versus what you actually said.

However, there's another line in your original message which stood out to me: "Games are a subjective experience." This is true, but in context it sounds like an attempt to marginalize or silence criticism by writing it off as subjective. You can say the experience of your game is subjective, but you cannot claim that you charge subjective prices for it.

Which is to say that if you want to set full price for your product, you should be delivering a full product to your customers and fans. It is unconscionable to me that I could ever ask someone to pay me the sticker price for something when I know, before it has even hit the shelves, that it is not sticker quality.

 

[unmerged(524934)]

...We are fixing bugs and improving the game combining our vision with the feedback and bug reports we're getting from you, the community...

...However working together with you is the best part of creating games, and together we can make Cities: Skylines II the best it can be. I truly believe that...

Sounds pretty much like the perfect definition of "early access" to me, @co_martsu - if only you'd said those words at some point during the "stellar marketing campaign" and priced the game accordingly.

Anyway, to the relief of many no doubt, I'll give it a rest for now, there's only so many ways I can express how saddened and disappointed I am by the botched release state of this game - I was really looking forward to playing a major step forward over CS1, a game I've played over 1,300 hours in. The sad fact is, I've no desire to play any more CS2 because fundamentally the game just doesn't match the expectations you set for it.

 

[tycoonmike8784]

But you released the game anyway.

There isn't really much to say regarding the oversell other than you're right: the game was oversold on the hype and promises. Many of which, I do think, were kept but were only discovered by modders and deep-divers, which is a situation that should never have occurred. The game needs to explain itself better and it shouldn't take myriad Reddit deep dives and players taking hours out of their days to run test scenarios to expose the true depth of the game.

Frankly if it weren't for the clarification posted earlier I likely would have uninstalled the game and never bothered with them again. After seeing how CDPR blamed their customers for the state Cyberpunk 2077 was in at launch, the statement rang ominously close.

CS:1 came in at a time when we were desperate for something after the failure that was SimCity 2013 and we gave the game a lot of slack simply because it wasn't an always-online piece of nonsense. Hindsight being 20:20 and all that, this was slack we likely shouldn't have given them at all because, well... look where it's landed us. Devs who, though meaning well, bit off way more than they could chew and are riding by on the goodwill that they garnered by simply not being EA or Maxis. Goodwill that, if the state of the forums is anything to go by, is rapidly evaporating. I can't speak for others but I'm getting real tired of defending the simulation in the game to people unwilling to think critically and are deadset in their conspiracy theories.

I enjoy CS2 and I do think it's an improvement in a lot of ways over CS1, but that doesn't change the fact that the game doesn't do a good job of explaining itself which then translates to frustration as people start to (wrongfully) apply lessons from prior games and don't get the expected results.

 

[co_martsu]

Thank you for the clarification. Would you be able to pass on @unmerged(524934) comments to the development team and perhaps follow his comments? They sum up a lot of I feel about the game and its issues.

Thank you, we're collecting all the feedback and working through it.

But you released the game anyway.

Yes, the game is out now and there's no going back.

It already is a good game. And I'm positive that when the major bugs are sorted out the reviews and player numbers will change to the better too. I personaly will not go back to CS1 because CS2 obviously IS the better base game in many ways.

We keep working on it! Gameplay bug fixes are on their way, thank you for your patience!

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on what you intended to communicate versus what you actually said.

However, there's another line in your original message which stood out to me: "Games are a subjective experience." This is true, but in context it sounds like an attempt to marginalize or silence criticism by writing it off as subjective. You can say the experience of your game is subjective, but you cannot claim that you charge subjective prices for it.

Thank you. I'll try to explain myself:
The issue Player A faces is different from the issue Player B faces. Player B thinks Player A's issue is not important and Player A thinks Player B's issue is not an issue at all. How do we prioritize between these? Both players have their on subjective experience which is true to them.
When we read through the feedback we have to try and understand the severity of the issue and how many players it affects. There is no simple formula but we have to go with our best guess based on the knowhow and previous experience we have. Both issues could be of similar importance and require a fix as soon as possible. They might not make it to high priority because of some other issues or the issues might be something that is as designed and then it's a matter of preference. All scenarios are possible. Somehow we need to navigate in this space and do the best we can so both players will be happy, but sometimes we fail. It doesn't mean we don't care.

Sounds pretty much like the perfect definition of "early access" to me, @co_martsu - if only you'd said those words at some point during the "stellar marketing campaign" and priced the game accordingly.

Anyway, to the relief of many no doubt, I'll give it a rest for now, there's only so many ways I can express how saddened and disappointed I am by the botched release state of this game - I was really looking forward to playing a major step forward over CS1, a game I've played over 1,300 hours in. The sad fact is, I've no desire to play any more CS2 because fundamentally the game just doesn't match the expectations you set for it.

I'm truly saddened by this. I'm sorry we failed to meet your expectations. I'm happy to hear you've spent so much time on Cities: Skylines and I hope you will be able to enjoy it still. And that maybe in time you'll be able to give Cities: Skylines II another chance.

 

[cdub8d]

once the bugs are fixed and some "hard" mode without failsafes is implemented, i think the majority of opinions about the game will be 100% positive

The CEO just asked modders in this thread to do it. I highly doubt that CO will add it now

 

[co_martsu]

The CEO just asked modders in this thread to do it. I highly doubt that CO will add it now

I merely suggested they'd most likely be quicker at it.

 

[TripleAgent]

I merely suggested they'd most likely be quicker at it.

Since you're back (thank you for continuing to engage by the way, I know this is tough but this kind of communication is really necessary given where the community is at right now), I'd like to ask again as to why CO failed to communicate the incomplete/broken state of the editor / paradox mods until weeks after release rather than before release when those tools/platforms were being discussed in dev diaries and used to advertise Region Packs? And why there was no correction of the "days" statement by your staff during the livestream?

CO Word of the Week #5

This week I’ll keep things brief and focus on what’s happening on modding. As suspected, modders wait for no-one and they have already achieved really cool stuff like maps and code mods which is amazing! Cities: Skylines II release build...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Mazisky]

What sadden me the most is that if you look closely at the game you can see there was a lot of effort put into it alongside many little details and improvements compared to cities 1.

It is just tainted by the bugs (both visual and gameplay) but those can be fixed fortunately, so I am very confident for the future.

My reasonable prediction is that next year around summer, with an estimate of 4\5 patches and post DLC n.1, most reviews will be changed to positive (including mine).

 

[co_martsu]

Since you're back (thank you for continuing to engage by the way, I know this is tough but this kind of communication is really necessary given where the community is at right now), I'd like to ask again as to why CO failed to communicate the incomplete/broken state of the editor / paradox mods until weeks after release rather than before release when those tools/platforms were being discussed in dev diaries and used to advertise Region Packs? And why there was no correction of the "days" statement by your staff during the livestream?

CO Word of the Week #5

This week I’ll keep things brief and focus on what’s happening on modding. As suspected, modders wait for no-one and they have already achieved really cool stuff like maps and code mods which is amazing! Cities: Skylines II release build...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

I'm not going anywhere, so please keep the questions coming.
When it comes to the editor we failed to complete it on time and couldn't catch up as quickly as we had hoped due to other priorities emerging. There was a communication breakdown that lead to miscommunication on the stream. After the launch we had to take a step back and evaluate the situation, and adjust priorities accordingly. The editor still needs work, but we'll release is as soon as we're able.

 

[MohawkWolfo98]

What sadden me the most is that if you look closely at the game you can see there was a lot of effort put into it alongside many little details and improvements compared to cities 1.

It is just tainted by the bugs (both visual and gameplay) but those can be fixed fortunately, so I am very confident for the future.

My reasonable prediction is that next year around summer, with an estimate of 4\5 patches and post DLC n.1, most reviews will be changed to positive (including mine).

Which little details and improvements out of curioousity? I see so many step backwards in terms of tiny details like guidelines, which way lots can be placed on the road, no more firefighters, ambulance paramedics or policemen. The buildings are much better detailed but it’s often just the same assest repeated so many times that the city looks the same.

Sounds pretty much like the perfect definition of "early access" to me, @co_martsu - if only you'd said those words at some point during the "stellar marketing campaign" and priced the game accordingly.

Anyway, to the relief of many no doubt, I'll give it a rest for now, there's only so many ways I can express how saddened and disappointed I am by the botched release state of this game - I was really looking forward to playing a major step forward over CS1, a game I've played over 1,300 hours in. The sad fact is, I've no desire to play any more CS2 because fundamentally the game just doesn't match the expectations you set for it.

I have 1000 hours on CS1, and built 1 city over the entire 8 year run because I just loved the game. CS2 is heartbreaking for me because the game felt absolutely perfect from the dev diaries/content creators, and was exactly what I wanted in a city builder with all the changes from CS1. Instead it’s just a broken buggy mess and no sign the fundamentals will ever improve apart from vague looks into it.

It’s a testament to how much CS2 is messed up that I feel that the often talked about performance issues are secondary to the games under the hood calculation problems, both in terms of design and bugginess. Its really sad that 8 years of love, attention and goodwill has been squandered within a month due to greed.

 

[gsxdsm]

Another voice chiming in - I want failsafes removed. I want a harder game (and I’m the most casual of all casual players). Without a chance of failure the game has little replay value for me. And this is coming from someone that always plays games in easy mode with assists. Please add hard-mode /adjustable difficulty to the base game.

 

[VeronicaTS]

I'm not going anywhere, so please keep the questions coming.
When it comes to the editor we failed to complete it on time and couldn't catch up as quickly as we had hoped due to other priorities emerging. There was a communication breakdown that lead to miscommunication on the stream. After the launch we had to take a step back and evaluate the situation, and adjust priorities accordingly. The editor still needs work, but we'll release is as soon as we're able.

I posted about education and traffic simulation. Do you care to answer those questions?

The direct question after laying out the issues was: "Are you considering these bugs that you will still be working on fixing or are you standing behind poor design choices and simply declaring that you met your goals?"

 

[VeronicaTS]

Another voice chiming in - I want failsafes removed. I want a harder game (and I’m the most casual of all casual players). Without a chance of failure the game has little replay value for me. And this is coming from someone that always plays games in easy mode with assists. Please add hard-mode /adjustable difficulty to the base game.

How would that work? If a city goes insolvent, the normal result in the real world is that you have it rechartered, merged with another city, or bankruptcy proceedings. Are you expecting an end screen or just the land sits vacant forever?

 

[FunkyPanda36]

How would that work? If a city goes insolvent, the normal result in the real world is that you have it rechartered, merged with another city, or bankruptcy proceedings. Are you expecting an end screen or just the land sits vacant forever?

I think other games just had you fired or voted out of office as the mayor. That could be an option. I think the best option though is to see yourself having to climb out of any hole you get yourself in with loans (which the game already intends!) that make you have to be a bit more deliberate about how you build back and right the ship. The longer you stay in the red, the longer it will take to climb out of and will just make you grow the city much slower and methodically. You should always be able to climb out of it if you make good decisions and want to be patient enough, but I think most people in this situation would be like "ahhh ok new city time" and start fresh. Which is good!

 

[humorpalanta]

@Mazisky @gsxdsm
Guys, there are no failsafes. The whole economy is completely made up. It randomly imports stuff and randomly "produces" stuff in a millisecond without actually using up the needed resources. Then teleports them into the business and teleports them out, if it wants.

 

[MohawkWolfo98]

How would that work? If a city goes insolvent, the normal result in the real world is that you have it rechartered, merged with another city, or bankruptcy proceedings. Are you expecting an end screen or just the land sits vacant forever?

I want a proper economic and traffic simulation to punish me for bad road layouts, which wil lead the city to a standstill as goods can’t be delivered and costs shoot up, as was advertised. That’s the fail state: Then give me the money through government subsidies to fix the problem, that’s perfectly fine. That’s what I thought would happen.

None of this magic teleporting goods or weird design choices like fewer people present on roads as the city grows bigger. Cims not being simulated in a city of Cims… I dunno what was the thinking behind that.