CO Word of the Week #9

[ClemiMD]

Steam Refund submitted.

Nice that someone has understood how consumer rights work.
It's not enough to just shout "I want my money back!"
I have often mentioned in other topics that the retailer is responsible if they have delivered a defective product (and gained some disagrees for that). It's funny that it took so long for someone to finally do something.

 

[gekj]

The funny thing with the moddind is that just before release they've explained not using steam workshop to "not split the community".

With all the delay they will achieved to make it worse when everything will be on thunderstore.

 

[avguy2]

Thirteen pages of comments on this latest WotW, hundreds of questions, and just two responses with six answers from Colossal Order, the last of which was about 20 hours ago - I mean, come on guys, this is not how this is supposed to work, surely? @co_martsu, @co_avanya - are you going to address any of the more difficult questions people have raised here? I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that as a paying customer I would like to hear from you a bit more

What do you expect though? You want her to announce fixes and dates? She doesn't have those.
An apology? Who would believe her? If she says sorry, we would tell her "words cost nothing, go fix your game!" - which she can't. Best she can do is promise vague stuff ("we intend to support the game for a long time") - which we would call her out for, too, and rightfully so (see modding tools).
I can't see what she could possibly tell us she wouldn't get flak for. At this point not say much of anything, work on the game and hope for the best would be what I'd do. And of course that's not such a great option either.

 

[cestes]

Will you keep us updated if this works? I only played 10.7 hours last year before giving up and we too in Europe have strong consumer protection laws.

I'm not timfrombriz -- I took inspiration from their post though. I just received a refund denial due to the 14 day rule.

For what it's worth,I live in the EU, but my Steam account is US based. I don't know if that would have any bearing on the consumer rights issue.

 

[gekj]

Sorry but asking a refund after 70+h is a joke, you've just accepted to be scammed.

When the game released i've launched the game and see the menu running at 10fps on 7800x3D with 4090 and to be able to run at least 40fps i needed to set graphics to PS2 level. So I instantly realized that the game was going to be a total mess and refund directly.

 

[unmerged(524934)]

What do you expect though? You want her to announce fixes and dates? She doesn't have those.
An apology? Who would believe her? If she says sorry, we would tell her "words cost nothing, go fix your game!" - which she can't. Best she can do is promise vague stuff ("we intend to support the game for a long time") - which we would call her out for, too, and rightfully so (see modding tools).
I can't see what she could possibly tell us she wouldn't get flak for. At this point not say much of anything, work on the game and hope for the best would be what I'd do. And of course that's not such a great option either.

I expect them to answer the questions which have been raised in this WotW which haven't been answered already (all six of them) by saying "we can't answer that", "no", "very unlikely", "not particularly confident about that timeline, no", "refunds are not on the table at this time", "I think you must be an idiot if you ever think that's going to happen" (OK that one was a joke) etc etc. If they cop a bit of flak for it, well it wouldn't be the first time would it and honestly, I think it would draw some of the poison from what is rapidly becoming an object lesson in how not to manage consumer disappointment. They talked about regaining trust - openness is one of the ways they do that.

PS I actually went through the first four pages trying to quote all the unaddressed questions I refer to in this thread (so they would have attribution), but it hasn't worked. They're all there though if you're wondering.

 

[unmerged(524934)]

Shouldn’t the most logical step for CO right now would be to postpone the console release until the PC version is stable, and bringing the developers working onto into bug fixing, performance improvements and modding support? Even if they somehow make the performance just barely pass the minimum to make it to consoles, releasing it now would mean the game will still have a ton of bugs and an incredibly bad reputation to bear, which will further damage the company’s reputation.

Am I missing something here?

It does on the face of it seem bizarre, but they may not have a choice - they could be contractually bound to deliver the console version within a certain timeframe or risk financial penalties/other sanctions which they're not willing to countenance, in spite of even more damage to their reputation and IP.

Whatever, they've got themselves into a proper mess with this - I think it's fair to say Mariina will certainly have earned her pay and bonuses if she can get them out of it.

 

[Lys91]

Things are looking grim.

 

[pikachukaki]

Im just curious they said that the game starts development 5-6 years ago with the release being at 2020.
They delayed for 2023 ok that happens.
But what exactly they where developing from 2015 onward? 10 lines of code per month?

 

[szechuancowboy]

Please can we have some pre-made cities to fix and build upon. It's a lot of work to always start a city from the ground up, and it takes some genuine skill beyond my level to create realistic infrastructure

 

[CensoredLOL]

Ah great. So previously, the problem was toxic players with high expectations. This week we are trying to shift a bit of the blame onto PDX. The blame shifting to everyone but CO is so transparent that it is ridiculous.

I posted in another thread but it got deleted because I quoted a post that got deleted. I will say it here again.

Given what is happening, here is my theory of what goes on behind the scene. CO is a small company. They have very few software developers. Some software developers were the only ones who understood how some parts of their code base worked (e.g., Bob was the only guy who understood the import/export code). If you have a good manager, you don't let this happen, and if it does, you make sure you don't lose them. Some of those people left the company at some point. I guess it started to happen when the game was delayed in 2020. They have lost some more key people since release, which would also be my guess. Given the team's small size, it does not take many people to leave for things to go very wrong. That would IMHO explain perfectly what is going on right now, and why they seem to be unable to fix anything.

Yea, that's my thoughts on it as well. Except maybe there were contracts that ran out on release, or, incredibly short-sightedly, CO fired half the team on release thinking they wouldn't need them to fix it, and now none want to return. Just my thoughts.

Paradox, as the publisher, should bail them out or risk losing profits off of all the DLCs (tba somewhere near 2030, likely). Paying a couple hundo thousand a year to ensure continued profitability should be considered.

It feels like they aren't close to 30 people anymore... once a game releases I wouldn't be shocked if they are down to just a few.
It feels like it's just CEO and Avanya working...
There's no transparency about the inner workings, and it's true that we don't have the right to know... but if they are facing massive staff shortages and development delays they. should. just. tell. us. It would help us understand why fixing this game is going to take over a year, and maybe even lead to a little less "toxicity" from us.

 

[Ozy83]

Have to say I'm really not happy with the lack of an asset editor/importer, after being told this was weeks away.. it's now being reported as Autumn?!?!

I'm an ultimate edition consumer and I'm definitely regretting purchasing the game at such a price for all the issues we've had and now the news about modding and customisation... ALMOST A YEAR.

I'm definitely changing my review from positive to negative on steam seeing as I can't ask for a refund.

This was a cash grab.

 

[homerCCCP]

I understand those who want to get a refund or who expect to pay everyone a partial refund.

Personally I would prefer them to keep the money and use it to make the game what is was supposed to be and that asap!

But instead of getting one Patch every three weeks (or even less) we would need like three patches each week to see this happen.
CO needs to accept the game is in early access Mode, meaning it does not make sense at this point to push out releases with deep QA checks (How QA is anyway expected to test anything if they can't make a move without falling into 20 bugs?)

Way better to have many releases, than "Uhm, we took your money, we know things are not good, but we fully dedicate our actions to have some good realease in the future, don't care about those who use it right now"

 

[tamsi99]

I think they have also confused the relationship with players. The condescending tone towards players in WotW's, the repeated lies about coming soon, were working hard, the threats of going silent, and now for the last month, the almost non existance of communication and engagement with players.

Yes exactly, I also wanted to address this in my posting but it was already pretty long so I left it out. Glad that you address it.

While I generally appreciate the weekly information from CO, it has some major issues:

1. If you really care about your customers then you need to give them tangible and transparent information in such a WotW. If you don't take your customers seriously and just continue to provide overly optimistic promises that you need to dramatically correct a few weeks later, or you just use it to blame everyone else for the mess you created then it's very counterproductive. If you then, as a reaction, start to become very vague or threaten the community to go silent, it will not help either. Not at all.
   
   
2. Mariina, sorry to say that, you should leave the communication to someone who has actual communication skills, for your own protection. And I mean that with the best intent. The task of the WotW in this situation is a very difficult and delicate one, as you feel it yourself every week. To be honest, I would not want to be the author or face of that WotW, this is an extremely challenging task. One wrong sentence can currently trigger the crowd to go after you. That's not due to any "toxic" community but the result of that desastrous release and those lots of promises that could not be kept. The "Journey" video, although generally interesting as such, also did not help because you also used it to basically say "hey the simulation is all fine, don't listen to those idiots out there who say otherwise". Blaming the community in such a situation is about the worst reaction you can have and it is inevitable that it will make things even worse. As you experienced more than once already. I highly appreciate your best intentions and your effort to give us a WotW, but again this will not end well if you don't rethink how you want to approach your weekly statement, and what mindset you want to use behind the messages.
   
   
3. The big underlying problem, judging from the distance, however is that you are so deep in the mess with that horrible release, so deep that it's over your head and you don't get a grip on making swift progress on key problems, so that it's hard to communicate anything meaningful, tangible and motivating for the community. And this is how it currently feels from where I stand. CO lost control over the complexity and has no clue how to improve and fix all the thousands of issues with this small team within a reasonable timeframe (or at all). A very difficult situation to be in. No fun for CO, and no fun for any city builder fan, and we are in it together. Significant difference is, however, the city builder fans didn't create this mess.

 

[TheLazyHangman]

And on top of this mess, Paradox is also allowing Nvidia to keep the Steam version of CS1 offline for 1 month straight for "maintenance" on GeForce Now. This is honestly starting to feel like watching a car crash from the side of the road.

 

[Otis85402]

it's a systemic problem

Yeah the more I think about this the more I agree, and that's why I'm stepping back from the game for a while.

I recently left a job that had a toxic work environment. Quit without notice. For the first and only time in my 47 year life I said "I can't take this anymore, and I am literally willing to quit my job with no notice and having nothing lined up just to experience relief from the constant torrent of job stress that was unrelenting". That night I slept like a baby. It was a Tuesday. By Friday of that week I handed in my badge and laptop.

Since the game isn't likely to be fixed anytime soon and we're just spinning our wheels here I might as well write a little more and hope that I'm wrong that the work environment isn't to blame for this. But I'll tell y'all having just left a really toxic white collar job these WOTW posts are the kind of thing you would see from the outside looking in if there's trouble in paradise. It could be that they lost a single rockstar programmer, that they have one or more toxic managers, that they have grown complacent in their largesse, it could be anything. And we won't know because companies will never air their dirty laundry. I'm not gonna name the place I worked but it's someplace you would have heard of.

This game, and game playing in general for me, is escapism. I have fun building cities and imagining the lives my citizens are living and what they might want to do in the city I build. The places they'd visit, the memories they'd form making out with their crush on the banks of a river somewhere, their first job, the places cool kids would party, I almost always have kind of a running narrative in my mind when I'm playing this game about what's on the peoples' minds and I let that inform my gameplay decisions. The people are hurting, I want to help!

And I mention that because what's happened to me is that the "Real World" is creeping into my escapism. The real world where companies are dysfunctional and it affects my leisure time. I'm not gonna appeal to CO or Paradox or whatever company I'm supposed to beg to. The ball is squarely in their court to do better. I'm done telling them what that looks like. Please do better, devs. You guys really really messed up here.

Actions, not words.

Actions, not words.

We've heard a lot of words.

 

[avguy2]

[...] you don't get a grip on making swift progress on key problems, so that it's hard to communicate anything meaningful, tangible and motivating for the community.

Exactly. At this point there's not much they can say. The damage is done and nobody can change that. Hopefully 2025 will be a better year for CS2 than 2024 seems to shape up to be.

 

[coasterfreak0471]

Here is a simple list of things for the devs to prioritize (in order):

Priority #1 - Fix the game-breaking bugs (as well as the smaller things)

Priority #2 - Get PDXMods up and running (all aspects; code mods, assets, maps, etc.)

Priority #3 - Release DLC content as part of Expansion Pass, along with Asset Content Creator Pack (you know, the 2500+ assets we were teased last year)

Priority #4 - NEW DLC separate from Expansion Pass

Priority #5 - Console port



Notice how low the console port is in priority? Get the game in good, working order and have lots of content ready so that the console version isn't barren like it is on PC right now. Hopefully this list is helpful for you in terms of prioritizing aspects of the game. C:S2 needs your help; focus on the broken stuff and get it functioning before doing something like a console release.

 

[Gaseous Stranger]

14 pages of messages and the devs/Mariina are nowhere to be found. Just like last week, nothing will be addressed I fear. We are all wasting our time in this discussion thread it seems

 

[richyhx1]

The funny thing with the moddind is that just before release they've explained not using steam workshop to "not split the community".

With all the delay they will achieved to make it worse when everything will be on thunderstore.

I mean to be fair, the community has united. Probably not how was planned though

All I want is some honesty and an apology, whether we were misled accidentally or on purpose we were still misled, things were promised that that have not been delivered, timelines were set out, once, then changed and then still not delivered on and now its just sometime this year. Some humility and humbleness is required.