CO Word of the Week #9

[MohawkWolfo98]

While I am glad to see previously infuriated people are feeling less so, I have such a difficulty understanding the anger in the first place. How does a $50 video game that someone purchased for amusement cause such anger? I mean, I might understand such from someone whose livelihood relied on it. Yet, streamers such as Biffa and City Planner whose livelihoods DO rely on it seem quite content, if slightly disappointed. I also understand that $50 can be a lot of money to some people. 10 years ago, $50 would have been the difference between eating ramen for a week or purchasing a game, so I can understand the value of $50.

While not calling out this poster personally, in general I just want to put a reminder to the community that emotional responses aren't always rational. Stepping back and taking a breath to allow our logical side to analyze a situation really helps to put things into perspective. For me, most games published by Paradox are games I expect to play for many years. Few other games do I expect to spend more than a few weeks or possibly months playing. As such, I can have a lot more patience with Paradox and their development studios. I know that eventually, the masterpieces that they are able to create are worth it.

I don't believe CO has ever consciously chosen to lie to us, but, at the very least, been guilty of being too optimistic. While many feel the game is currently unplayable, many more play it regularly. Personally, I'm waiting for a few more bug fixes before I wish to play regularly. Having worked in software development, there were definitely times where I seemed to be 98% complete with an aspect of a project, just needing to correct one last thing that wasn't working correctly. Then finding that the hurdle was actually a cliff that was ridiculously difficult to traverse. This was especially true when trying to integrate with third-party software.

CO devs, I understand you. I appreciate you. I trust you. I believe the majority of the community do as well. Keep working on making the best city builder you can. With the foundation that is there, I can't wait to see what C:SII is a few years from now!

It’s very simple and logical tbh. It’s $60, rising up to nearly $110(!) if you went for the Ultimate Edition. That’s still a significant outlay to spend in this economy, and double/quadruple the price of the previous game. With such a high price, there has to be certain expectations that need to be met. At the very least, we should be able to expect that the things that we were promised during the marketing campaign should be delivered on.

Yes, Paradox Games are always barebones at release, but there must be a certain standard of at least ensuring that the features they promised to us (modding, editors, simulation,) are running as advertised, and that it’s not a buggy mess. The fact that it’s taken so long for them to admit that it’s going to be at least a year to fix and 6-12 months to get the features they promised into the game suggests that the company was aware of all the problems, knew that this game wasn’t ready but they still chose to release without telling players. It’s deeply disrespectful to us. CO are not idiots - they were the world leader in city building for the last 8 years.

Compounding all this is the reaction by the company post release. Instead of owning up to their mistakes and fix the mess they made, I have been told 3 times in some form (This game isn’t for you, ur expectations are too high, your toxic so we won’t communicate the same thing we have over the last few months) by the CEO and by CO that the games release is my fault somehow. I can understand if u made a mistake in communication, we are humans, but to do it 3 times suggests that this is their true stance rather than a slip of tongue during a moment of frustration. It’s also wildly out of touch, especially when some of the accusations they made of too high expectations was directly because of the marketing campaign they made.

Can you see why some of us might be upset or angry? We put our faith in these developers to at least be honest with us and there was a great deal of trust built up from the last game. To see them do stunts like this is deeply saddening, because they are now the company that they rightly mocked 8 years ago for being out of touch with what city planners wanted. And we know they can do better. But CO is refusing to acccpet that this game needs a lot more love and attention before they can even consider making a console version, yet they are still doing it anyway.

Notice I have in no way demanded bikes, proper seasons or whatever - I just wanted the CS2 they advertised, I want the game to run normally without a game breaking bug of some kind coming up.

EDIT: And the advertising they did is now looking deeply misleading (Assest Packs “soon” - now maybe Fall. Modding “Days if not Hours” - still not here) Countless bugs of land value, insane incomes are still present in the game, yet they are all in on console releases.

 

[tom_mai78101]

What about performance improvements? I have a city at 700k population that is unplayable and I am running it on a high end system. I’ve tried to submit a report but the saved game file is too large to upload on your website.

You will need to ask Paradox Interactive (whom they control the forum site) to increase the max upload size, so you can attach your game save to the bug tracker.

I'm seriously having flashbacks to SimCity 2013 with the way this entire release has been handled.

To be fair, SimCity 2013 had an always-online clause, which in my opinion was worst than Cities: Skylines 2. Also, they don't have dedicated highways and interchanges, unlike Cities: Skylines 2.

Why on earth are you porting the game to console when it's in such a sorry state? Let alone making it a top priority? All you'll do is add console players to your list of pissed-off/ripped-off customers.

But Switch 2 port though....

 

[Troyen]

What about performance improvements? I have a city at 700k population that is unplayable and I am running it on a high end system. I’ve tried to submit a report but the saved game file is too large to upload on your website.

I found that the thread opener is more flaky than uploading in a reply. When I filed bug reports, I couldn't attach save files to any of the reports themselves, but was able to in a reply to the thread. That's if you're encountering uploading timeout/failures when making the report; if you're actually getting some kind of a "this file is too big" error, I haven't hit that yet.

 

[elGendo87]

This "Word of the week" are getting funnier and funnier every time

 

[Troyen]

Before those bigger releases, we’ll have one more patch coming out. After this, we’ll include the bug fixes and performance improvements in the releases to reduce the amount of individual patches.Sincerely,

Thanks for the details and timeline.

This bit worries me though. That sounds an awful lot like the CS1 approach of only including bug fixes when a DLC patch came out, which meant we'd go months or sometimes years with major bugs or issues not addressed, and also meant a number of things never got rebalanced. That honestly was one of the things that eventually made me stop playing CS1 because it feels like the existing game doesn't get much support.

I know you're not Paradox, but the past couple of years most Paradox teams have shifted to quarterly releases, even when they don't include DLC. That way if our pet peeve bug doesn't get fixed in one release, we know there's another chance coming in the next quarter (or possibly in the post-release hotfix patches). With the CS1 release-only approach, nobody has any idea if or when the next patch will come out, so as a player we have to assume any defects encountered will be stuck there for eternity.

 

[citybuildingaddict5]

so disappointing. Sounds like you need to hire more people…

 

[avguy2]

While I am glad to see previously infuriated people are feeling less so, I have such a difficulty understanding the anger in the first place. How does a $50 video game that someone purchased for amusement cause such anger? I mean, I might understand such from someone whose livelihood relied on it. Yet, streamers such as Biffa and City Planner whose livelihoods DO rely on it seem quite content, if slightly disappointed. I also understand that $50 can be a lot of money to some people. 10 years ago, $50 would have been the difference between eating ramen for a week or purchasing a game, so I can understand the value of $50.

While not calling out this poster personally, in general I just want to put a reminder to the community that emotional responses aren't always rational. Stepping back and taking a breath to allow our logical side to analyze a situation really helps to put things into perspective. For me, most games published by Paradox are games I expect to play for many years. Few other games do I expect to spend more than a few weeks or possibly months playing. As such, I can have a lot more patience with Paradox and their development studios. I know that eventually, the masterpieces that they are able to create are worth it.

I don't believe CO has ever consciously chosen to lie to us, but, at the very least, been guilty of being too optimistic. While many feel the game is currently unplayable, many more play it regularly. Personally, I'm waiting for a few more bug fixes before I wish to play regularly. Having worked in software development, there were definitely times where I seemed to be 98% complete with an aspect of a project, just needing to correct one last thing that wasn't working correctly. Then finding that the hurdle was actually a cliff that was ridiculously difficult to traverse. This was especially true when trying to integrate with third-party software.

CO devs, I understand you. I appreciate you. I trust you. I believe the majority of the community do as well. Keep working on making the best city builder you can. With the foundation that is there, I can't wait to see what C:SII is a few years from now!

CO overhyped and underdelivered. They put out all these videos how awesome CS2 was gonna be and claimed "deep simulation" when none of that really works and the game is just a city painter. It lacks in gameplay, balancing, polish, content... And performance, of course.

They knew the game wasn't ready for release but instead of pushing it they waited until the last minute and put out a statement somewhere along the lines of "oh btw. the game isn't done but we'll release anyway, suckaz" iirc.

They're selling an unfinished buggy early access game at full price. Since before release they're apparently in damage control mode but making the situation worse (like announcing the release of mod tools to be expected "soon" after release when the truth would have been more like 6 to 12 months).

Oh and of course they complained about the justified backlash and accused players of having too high expectations and being toxic, meanwhile 3 months after release no substantial improvements have been made on the game and people are realizing that it will take much much longer for this game to get fully developed, if ever.

Why anybody would be angry I have no idea.

 

[KyoLo the major]

I will put my 2 cents here as well..as someone mentioned before, I think that this kind of project issues are arising from one main core issue, not enough knowledge on what its going on with the code. Also myself as IT worker it happened that customer wanted something and have no idea on how the software was or not was able to do that. Therefore I believe that really someone or more than 1 developer left during the game development stage, so before the final release.
Now what I think they are thinking of is, a console version must be easier to create as they must scrap functionalities to make it work barely on console. Then when, and if, it is achieved, that console versione will be THE version rolling out on PC as well. And from that point they will add with DLC the functions scrapped away and putting it back in the game. They can always say we just can't solve on time so we just put a simplified version of the mechanic taken from console...

 

[FernandoLins86]

People saying they were "overly optimistic", haha! I'm going to tell that to my boss if I miss an important deadline and it costs the company some amount of money and hours of labour. Sorry, boss, I was being overly optimistic!

 

[Otis85402]

If I'm guessing right, then it's sad but we can't do anything more.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance <--- You are here

 

[sonicmyst]

Good heavens, please expand your manpower already. How can you expedite resolving issues and deliver your commitments with such a small team?

Your players are getting restless by the week. Every WOW seems like there is no urgency in resolving the most pressing matters.

 

[Potoroo]

Welcome back to the weekly update on what’s happening at Colossal Order and what to expect for Cities: Skylines II. Last week we had in-depth conversations with our publisher Paradox Interactive on the priorities and goals for Cities: Skylines II for 2024. There’s really nothing new when it comes to the previous statements: Modding support, console versions, and the Expansion Pass content are to be worked on and released during the year. From the great discussions emerged an important decision however: the modding support will roll out gradually as the features enter beta and we won’t wait for all of them to be fully completed before setting them live.

What this means in practice is that we’ll start giving the mod creators early access to the modding tools as soon as the code modding and Paradox Mods are ready for testing. If everything goes as planned a Public Beta version of the code modding and Paradox Mods will be available a couple of weeks after that. We’ll continue to work on the Map and Asset editing as they require a bit more attention still. Map editing is expected to be available sooner than the Asset editing, but at this time it comes down to iteration time and the feedback we’re getting on the usability of the tool. Asset editing is unfortunately suffering from technical issues and as long as players are unable to save and share the assets there’s no point publicly releasing the tools. We do have a plan for the fixes, but it might take months in the worst case I’m afraid.

Sooo, if the asset editor for public release is so broken it's possibly months away from being released, how are CO adding assets to the game now? Are you using another tool or simply some monumentally slow workaround? It might be my own ignorance but I really don't understand how in developing a game like this you haven't had a working editor since way back because it's a tool you'd use yourselves.

 

[orbops]

So the asset mods, including the Creator Packs, aren't going to be available until sometime between March and  Fall? That's astonishing, to be honest, it's gone from "days after release" to almost a year!

Why is it astonishing? They're trying to be as open as they can. Would you have been happier if they said nothing until March through the Fall?

 

[orbops]

Thank you for sharing this week information.
This week, you focused solely on the topic of the Editor again.
We understand that you focus the Editor, but we want to know when the unfinished game will be completed.
(I don't think the current situation we are facing can be described as a 'bug'. It's more appropriate to call it 'unfinished'.)

Could you please make the list including the following items?
That way, we can determine when we will back to the game.

1. Issues you have confirmed.
2. Issues you are currently working on.
3. Estimated date for issue fixes.

We are users who purchased this game, not testers.

And please realize that you are getting on the nerves of your users by leaving the game unfinished and only releasing information about the Editor.
Or have you given up on finishing the game yourself? Are you focusing on Editor information to have modders finish the game for you?

You paid for the game up front and could have returned it within the 2 hour window that Steam rules specify. Stop mentioning about your purchase that you are unhappy with, and submit bug reports to help the developers. If you want details of bug fixes, just wait for the release notes for each patch and then you can decide if you want to play CS2.

 

[timfrombriz]

Steam Refund submitted.

Here's what I stated for anyone else wanting to do the same. Im from Australia, consumer protection laws are pretty strong here, maybe replace with what laws exist in your own country.

Heres where you go if you want to get a refund after Steam's 14 day/2hour playtime window;

Steam Support - Cities: Skylines II

Log in to your Steam account to get help with your Steam games, contact Steam Support, request refunds, and more. Help is also available if you can't log in, need to reset your password, or recover a hijacked account.

help.steampowered.com

Here's what I wrote in the compressed box in the screenshot, as my stated reasons for refund (modify for your own country's law's);

Game was misleadingly advertised as being ready for release (by developer issued prelease development diaries videos on products steam channel here) . The additional future prepaid content for the game is inevitably delayed and not delivered as stated. Links from developer and community below regarding these issues. Link to laws about Australia misleading and false advertising also supplied. I wish to be fully refunded, as per the developer's CEO suggestion to the community if they are not happy with the product.

Australia Consumer Law (False & Misleading Advertising)

False or misleading claims

A business must be able to prove any claim they advertise. Claims should be true, accurate and based on reasonable grounds.

www.accc.gov.au

Community & Developer latest announcements regarding the product

CO Word of the Week #9

Welcome back to the weekly update on what’s happening at Colossal Order and what to expect for Cities: Skylines II. Last week we had in-depth conversations with our publisher Paradox Interactive on the priorities and goals for Cities: Skylines II...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Statement to apply for refund by product developer's CEO;

CO Word of the Week #5

This week I’ll keep things brief and focus on what’s happening on modding. As suspected, modders wait for no-one and they have already achieved really cool stuff like maps and code mods which is amazing! Cities: Skylines II release build...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Maybe I'll come back in a few years and pick it up on sale if the game looks like it made any progress with meeting the development diaries sales pitches.

 

[orbops]

Modding, Console Release... a sprinkle of bug fixes on the side.

Dissapointed polishing the current game (adding all the missing textures/animation, fixing the thousands of bugs reported in the forum and balancing issues) is not the first priority before slapping everything else on top. Really dissapointed its gone this way, especially given the wide discussion of this by the community in last weeks wotw which has gone on deaf ears.

One more patch before the end of March release. Not much to look forward to here.

Given the release number is .19f from .18f, it appears its only gone through one QA round, and the number of bug fixes in the next build will be barely enough to make the game engaging still. Im not a city painter, thats all there is in this game currently, playing as an economic/business/transport/traffic managment sim, its not there.

For me, its time to put this game down and look for my gaming fix elsewhere. Prepurchased CS2 Ultimate Edition, nothing of the extras interest me at all with the game as it stands and where its going.

Im sorry Im so negative, but thats the truth. Im beyond dissapointed with the direction and speed here.

Your mistake was prepurchasing CS2.

 

[timfrombriz]

Your mistake was prepurchasing CS2.

Yep. More so, never again will I purchase anything from Paradox. Been burn't too many times with undercooked products looking for a quick buck. Prison Architect 2 is off my list, even though its my genre. I can forsee what that game's release will be like. Its a constant theme with PDX releases. Stellaris was my first experience. Prison Architect got brought out and the game got DLC's that just added bugs and broke the original game's mechanics and ruined it.

 

[CensoredLOL]

You paid for the game up front and could have returned it within the 2 hour window that Steam rules specify. Stop mentioning about your purchase that you are unhappy with, and submit bug reports to help the developers. If you want details of bug fixes, just wait for the release notes for each patch and then you can decide if you want to play CS2.

This is delusional. Most players don't encounter the game-breaking bugs until well after the 2 hour window. It's a forever-game - you can theoretically play it forever and shouldn't have issues... but we do, once the simulation catches up with the bugs.

 

[orbops]

With all these terrible bugs to fix, you fix the DOG PROBLEM FIRST???????!!!!

Bug fixes are ranked in terms of priority and difficulty. Seems like the people complaining do not understand how software development works in regards to bug fixes.

* Every bug needs to be quantified in terms of how many other routines rely on this algorithm, and the impact to other teams if the input/output interface is impacted. So with the abandoned dog bug (I'm just guessing here - there could a routine focused on the dog, another on the dog tied to a person, another tied to keeping the dog on the sidewalk, another tied to how often to draw/display the dog, another tied to dog pathing, another to keep track of how many dogs there are in the city, another calculating the happiness of a person with a dog. So now there 7 different routines that need to be reviewed, so possibly 7 different dev teams now need to work on it).
* Each dev team now needs to determine how many resources need to be reassigned to work on this bug, and how this resource change impacts all the deliverables the dev team has already committed to.
* The dev team needs to now estimate how long it will take to fix the bug based on each person's availability (vacations, sick leave, PTO, etc)
*Once the bug has been recoded, now it needs to go through QA - which means all other fixes need to be frozen at this stage, including possibly retesting every other algorithm that interacts with this bit of code to make sure the bug hasn't broken something else.

If you want more small patches, then this entire cycle has to be repeated for every little patch - that's why program management wants to deliver larger patches less frequently.

 

[Catpoint789]

I think that for the moment, we should just stop waiting for CS2 to get better, and play Highrise City instead. Everything CO fails or misses is well done by this ridiculously small team :

• A working, rational and understandable simulation
• Great in-game tutorials, transparency about how the simulation works
• Very pleasant support and interaction with the team on their discord
• Frequent updates with a lot of fixes and improvements (the one from late november mentioned a 15 times better performance)
• A first DLC covering real expectations from the players (planes and metro, which the game was not even originally planned for) for a price so small that it's actually a pleasure to buy it just to support the team (3€ when the same DLC from CO would easily cost 25€)
• No toxic communication, no false advertising, no blaming on the community

I went and checked the game out on Steam after reading your post. While it looks complex and probably has a bit of a learning curve, it looks super cool! Reminds me of Transport Fever 2 a lot. If HC's devs can do it, Colossal Order definitely can.