CO Word of the Week #9

[Krazel]

"... the Expansion Pass ... on track for its release"? I find that almost an offense and not a good development. We're still waiting for many fixes and UI improvements. And CO is already allocating resources for something we have to pay for? That doesn't make sense.

It does if your motives for updating the game are corporate (financially) motivated...

 

[Abitus]

So is anything ready for this game? Cause except than road networks nothing else works properly and your priority is to release mod support? For what for independent people fix your game? Thats nice!! Smart!!

On this too I think we can guess what the strategy is.

I noticed weeks ago that under nearly every official tweet from CO and CS2 accounts, there are a lot of console players asking for a release date. I think the vast majority of these players does not read the forums here. All they see is probably youtubers enjoying city painting. From what they know, the game probably looks great, so all they're asking is a release date in order to finally enjoy the game.

Considering this, CO is facing the hard task of balancing expectations from both player bases : fixes for PC players + release for console players.

In theory the most logical action would be to favorise fixes first, so when the game will finally be ready for console it will be fully functional. But by doing this they could seriously risk to lose all attention from console players tired of waiting.

So I think their strategy is to try to do both at the same time : getting console version ready while fixing a maximum things on the game at the same time.

Personnally I can't totally disapprove such a strategy, it's understandable in regard of the current situation. Ideally to avoid being here today, it would have been better to delay the PC release. But it's too late for that, so yeah now it's a clock game for them. I still hope they manage to succeed.

 

[mercsen]

As a fellow software engineer and programmer i find it pretty hard to believe that the issues with the asset import are turning up just now. what kind of preproduction did you guys have?
why even release such an unfinished game
the timeline is abysmal and very disappointing

 

[shoebird]

Game is a lot of missing contents and bugs

Where is the elevated metro ?
Where is parks ?
Where is train stations ?
Where is master train station ?
Where is intersections ?
Where is optimization ?

CS1 is the more good that game

Come on "we are new mechanics; the road" and this is cs2.İs it playable ? I have ryzen 5600 32 gb ram 10 gb rx6700.Other games are 2k 80fps, but cs2 1080p low 25fps and lot of missing contents


We want "we apoligize, we are work on new patch and missing contents we are sorry !" No more !!!!

Im sorry ı forgot this is paradox game.Every paradox game is unplayable at launch, but it will be fixed with dlcs after 1 year.Eu4, surviving mars, hoi, ck every paradox games unplayable at lunch.Bugs, missing contents.Lets look at this games forum

Ok, but why are you quoting me?

 

[CapnBludd]

"... the Expansion Pass ... on track for its release"? I find that almost an offense and not a good development. We're still waiting for many fixes and UI improvements. And CO is already allocating resources for something we have to pay for? That doesn't make sense.

It's something that people already paid for. It's all part of the ultimate version, so yeah, they have to get it out.

 

[Skeksis25]

Of course, we hope to resolve the issues sooner, but we want to be honest with you and not set too high expectations.

Everytime I see you guys say this or something to this effect, it just infuriates me more. You didn't care to have this attitude prior to launch when you asked everyone to preorder and buy the DLC. But now that the money has been taken, now its all about honesty and not wanting to over promise.

Also, wow. The reaction score for this Word of the Week compared to past ones really tells you something huh?

 

[pikachukaki]

On this too I think we can guess what the strategy is.

I noticed weeks ago that under nearly every official tweet from CO and CS2 accounts, there are a lot of console players asking for a release date. I think the vast majority of these players does not read the forums here. All they see is probably youtubers enjoying city painting. From what they know, the game probably looks great, so all they're asking is a release date in order to finally enjoy the game.

Considering this, CO is facing the hard task of balancing expectations from both player bases : fixes for PC players + release for console players.

In theory the most logical action would be to favorise fixes first, so when the game will finally be ready for console it will be fully functional. But by doing this they could seriously risk to lose all attention from console players tired of waiting.

So I think their strategy is to try to do both at the same time : getting console version ready while fixing a maximum things on the game at the same time.

Personnally I can't totally disapprove such a strategy, it's understandable in regard of the current situation. Ideally to avoid being here today, it would have been better to delay the PC release. But it's too late for that, so yeah now it's a clock game for them. I still hope they manage to succeed.

What you think will happen when they release this abomination of a game to console players? There will be happy to play it or they will play for 10 hours and then ask for refund? If they didn't fix the game 100% any release beyond that will be a disaster. Console or DLC\extra content

 

[anydaytv]

In theory the most logical action would be to favorise fixes first, so when the game will finally be ready for console it will be fully functional. But by doing this they could seriously risk to lose all attention from console players tired of waiting.

So I think their strategy is to try to do both at the same time : getting console version ready while fixing a maximum things on the game at the same time.

Man oh man, I would not want to be in that position. If they think the PC crowd is insatiable ... Just wait until the console crowd rolls in. Talk about being a glutton for punishment.

 

[FernandoLins86]

Thanks for the updates. It seems like PDX and CO are trying to makes things right, but in the worst way possible. New big issues keep coming up and everything keeps getting delayed.

The priorities should be fixing the game's simulations most basic features and performance, then after that is done, work on mods and editors and everything else. You need a working game first, however at the current state it is a very broken game.

I bought the game late last year when there were weekly patches improving performance and killing bugs. If this work will not continue until all issues have been smoothed out then I won't be playing the game or supporting DLCs. Guess I'll see you in a couple of years when it becomes stable. Good luck!

 

[Abitus]

What you think will happen when they release this abomination of a game to console players? There will be happy to play it or they will play for 10 hours and then ask for refund? If they didn't fix the game 100% any release beyond that will be a disaster. Console or DLC\extra content

I agree with your analysis. It's a very risky game to try to do both at the same time (fixing the game and finishing the console version). But I think, according to what they communicated, that it's pretty obviously the path they have chosen.

And personnally I could not affirm that, from a business/money perspective, it would be better for them to risk delaying console version even more just to favor bugfixes. I have no details regarding their financial situation or their investments, so I don't know. Maybe the "all at once" bet is safer by the numbers. Though I agree on the fact that, from our perspective and for the moment at least, it does not look like a great strategy.

 

[gentlecrab]

I didn't quite understand, will there be another patch besides 1.0.19 before bugfix patches are only released alongside major feature patches? After this next patch, will the next one only be at the end of March with the arrival of the beta version of modding?

I’m more and more convinced that their main focus right now is the console version and they’re hoping all the bugs go away in that build.

 

[TripleAgent]

The community has been on fire for more than two weeks, I'm disappointed in state of the game but I'm more disappointed that it seems like CO is choosing to ignore most of what's been said the last two WoWs. This is severely harming the reputation of CO and PDX and all of these issues (lack of trust, misleading marketing, massive delays, unclear priorities, substantial steps to make things right, etc) really need to be addressed sooner rather than later. Many, many valid and critical points were raised last week, and instead today we talk about how the mod tools are even more broken than previously told and it may be a year before we get what was sold to us.

I'm seriously having flashbacks to SimCity 2013 with the way this entire release has been handled.

 

[Swordsman1219]

To rehash points I've made and others have made but that I personally would like response to from someone "on high" (i.e. recognition that I/others are being seen, validated, and heard.) Reposted from last week and still never acknowledged.

CS2 is still a dumpster fire 3-4 months post release... Mariina made promises (such as modding tools/map editors) being available within the first week of release; (there were plenty of press releases/blurbs that indicated such.) This has not happened AT ALL, instead all we get is more vague platitudes and nonsense blathering from on high. As others have said, the devs made many promises that they just can't complete. The classic American expression is that they have bit off more than they can chew and that is 100% true for CS2.

CS2 will go down in flames, it's already happening, it's a massive, slow, death but there is no redeeming it or preventing it from happening. Speaking only for myself, I haven't played the game in many weeks and I am sure that is true for lots of others too. Due to the many broken promises by the developers and unmet/broken promises for features therein, it's inevitable that people will get bored with a broken game.

The game isn't "good enough for release" (and frankly wasn't when it was shoved out the door to as you say make quarterly profits.) CS2 was a cashgrab.
What the community has responded with is absolute outrage because as I said the game is a dumpster fire of bugs and broken or incorrectly functioning features. This was a game that has been in development for YEARS with alleged quality testing (though how true that is, is anyone's guess.)

Very few bugs/feature fixes have actually been fixed, features that were again promised within DAYS of release (Maps/Map Editor/Asset Editor/Mods/Functioning Freight and Postal Systems) have been punted into the sun to be released only the Good Lord knows when because 1. We have no provided roadmap of progress and 2. the CEO/other community/company officials here have taken Political Doublespeak/Marketing 101 and keep speaking out of both sides of their mouths while saying NOTHING of actual substance. After spending a King's ransom (at least at my paycheque level) for a product that was ballyhooed and puffed up like the world's greatest souffle, we are left with a wet, soggy, unbaked custardy mess of a product.

That's not on us as a community, that's not on "toxicity" that's on YOU, the game developers. We deserve better.

 

[Derangedteddy]

I'm reaching the point where I feel like my trust is being violated and taken advantage of. I am a professional full stack software engineer who has written multiple mods for this game. I and many other SWEs here cannot imagine what honest, unforeseen circumstances would have lead to the realization that modding support would be pushed a full year out from release when we were told under no ambiguous terms it would be "soon after release." Many of us developers are simply baffled.

I have tried my best to give CO the benefit of the doubt here, interpreting public statements in the most generous terms I possibly could, but I am afraid that this is at a point where I can no longer reconcile my desire to remain optimistic and forgiving with the facts. We were told by CO that modding support would be FULLY released shortly after the game's release. I cannot imagine that any reasonable person would have interpreted that to mean "beta in 6 months, full release in one year." Fast forward to December, and we're receiving WoWs that reassure us that modding support is coming in Q1. Now, the rug has been pulled again and we're finding out that the BETA period for modding support is going to START in Q1 and wrap up in Q3, assuming no major problems occur. I'm not even sure that I trust these timelines, either.

Speaking as a mod developer, I don't have much interest in participating in a protracted 6+ monthlong beta for modding. Back in December we were told that this would be a short beta period measured in weeks (I believe 2 weeks was mentioned as an estimate, IIRC). I'm fine with that, but six months of constantly needing to update my mods to adjust to the deluge of inevitable modding platform updates is not tenable. It's hard enough keeping up with the regular game updates, let alone updates to the modding platform itself. That can have profound, far reaching effects on our code that might require enormous amounts of work to refactor, up to and including entire rewrites. I'm not willing to do that for six months, and I don't think many other devs will be either, particularly those who are writing complex mods that require tens and tens of hours of development and simulation testing per release. That's not to mention that we will likely need to maintain multiple branches for the production release, as well as a branch for upcoming platform changes. I see dragons ahead, and they look angry.

Simply put: I'm struggling to believe that CO honestly had no idea that modding support would take a year to reach production status. I am frustrated, disappointed, and angry. This is unacceptable, and I am fast approaching the point of not caring anymore. I haven't played the game in over a month (thanks to the new tax bug), and I am losing hope that things will recover any time soon. The trust is broken. It's up to you to fix it, because I'm getting off the ride. I'm not buying any paid DLCs or content, I'm uninstalling the game, and I'm going back to CS1. Hopefully I'll be excited to play again once non-beta modding support is released.

Respectfully, you guys need to get it together, because this is not how you should handle communication on these issues.

 

[unoace1006]

Thank you for the weekly update Mariina.

I hope some sort of breakthrough allows the Editor to reach its base potential of code modding, maps, and assets sooner rather than later. I’m here along for the ride and trying to remain positive.

I hope that the CPU and GPU improvements continue well into the future after these pressing priorities have been addressed; and that they are recentered as pressing priorities in their own right eventually as well.

The team has so much work to do and so little time to do it. I feared additional delays were on the way, but wanted to remain optimistic.

@co_avanya

Questions
1) Is the team considering adding new capacity to help meet these deadlines?

2) Has the team reached its goal of 30fps target at 1080p on recommended hardware?

3) What technical details can you share about the technical issues you face with the asset editor?

4) can you help us understand what stage of development the code modding / map editor are in? Why has it taken this long.

I previously thought they were nearly complete but were being held back due to assets editor facing issues. Now it seems it all had issues and it was all not very complete at all.

 

[relytor]

Out of curiosity, why announce the Creator Packs so early if you were aware of how unpredictable the release date is? Why give us hope of new content only to potentially sideswipe it away from us yet again?

EDIT: On a plus side, we can disagree a lot on the game, but now thank you for giving us at least a rough timetable of what is to be expected, and being honest with it. That is the very least we can expect, and thank you for not blaming the community as well for the problems u created. I think it’s the first dev diary in weeks that I’m not infuriated.

While I am glad to see previously infuriated people are feeling less so, I have such a difficulty understanding the anger in the first place. How does a $50 video game that someone purchased for amusement cause such anger? I mean, I might understand such from someone whose livelihood relied on it. Yet, streamers such as Biffa and City Planner whose livelihoods DO rely on it seem quite content, if slightly disappointed. I also understand that $50 can be a lot of money to some people. 10 years ago, $50 would have been the difference between eating ramen for a week or purchasing a game, so I can understand the value of $50.

While not calling out this poster personally, in general I just want to put a reminder to the community that emotional responses aren't always rational. Stepping back and taking a breath to allow our logical side to analyze a situation really helps to put things into perspective. For me, most games published by Paradox are games I expect to play for many years. Few other games do I expect to spend more than a few weeks or possibly months playing. As such, I can have a lot more patience with Paradox and their development studios. I know that eventually, the masterpieces that they are able to create are worth it.

I don't believe CO has ever consciously chosen to lie to us, but, at the very least, been guilty of being too optimistic. While many feel the game is currently unplayable, many more play it regularly. Personally, I'm waiting for a few more bug fixes before I wish to play regularly. Having worked in software development, there were definitely times where I seemed to be 98% complete with an aspect of a project, just needing to correct one last thing that wasn't working correctly. Then finding that the hurdle was actually a cliff that was ridiculously difficult to traverse. This was especially true when trying to integrate with third-party software.

CO devs, I understand you. I appreciate you. I trust you. I believe the majority of the community do as well. Keep working on making the best city builder you can. With the foundation that is there, I can't wait to see what C:SII is a few years from now!

 

[TripleAgent]

Question, this is from October 17, where the talk was that the initial release of the editor that they were preparing already "supports" creation of custom buildings and more asset types.

Why was there all this talk around what the editor and mod tools would support when the mod tools were broken to the extent that it would take a year to fix them? I'm deeply confused as to how this was working well enough that they could brag about the features of the tools. but now it might be 6+ months out?

Behind the Scenes #2: Editor

Hello everyone and welcome back to another development diary. Today we’re sharing our plans for the Editor in Cities: Skylines II. Currently, the game does not include the Editor, but we will update the game post-release to include it as soon as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

The Editor is currently in beta and being tested by our modding beta group, which consists of seasoned modders and asset creators. The Editor will be released in several steps, the first of which will include map creation, asset import, code mods, and sharing those as well as savegames through Paradox Mods.

Creating custom maps in Cities: Skylines II includes what you might expect: Shaping the landscape, setting up water sources for rivers and lakes, painting in natural resources and forests, and setting up the basic outside connections for a city. But map creation also includes setting up the map’s climate, including its temperature variations and weather.

The initial release of the Editor supports the creation of custom buildings with more asset types to be supported in the future. It allows you to import custom .fbx files with a matching set of textures, set up color variations, decorate the asset, and tweak its stats to fit your new asset. You can of course also edit existing assets, giving your favorite building a new look through different color variations and decorations. All the technical information about modeling and texturing assets can be found on the official wiki, which will be updated as more information is available.

Last, but definitely not least, this update will support code modding. We have given a lot of the prominent modders from Cities: Skylines early access to Cities: Skylines II, giving them a chance to get familiar with the game and get inspired to create mods. That said, please remember that the game uses new technology and has a deeper simulation, so mods need to be created from scratch and nothing done earlier for Cities: Skylines can be used as such. We’re very excited to see what the modders create for this time around!

This first update will also enable sharing to Paradox Mods. Here you can share and download custom maps, buildings, and code mods, as well as share your savegame or download other people’s cities to explore. Paradox Mods will be available on all platforms, not just PC, within the limits of each platform. We’ll get into the details of what will be included for console closer to their release.

 

[Askorti]

Ok, somebody more informed about these things please correct me if my logic is faulty, or if I'm overlooking something, but to me it makes little sense to try rushing the console release.

Right now CO's and CS2's reputations are... less than stellar, to be mild. The mood of the community is also very negative it seems. Given how the wider community feels about the situation, won't a console release have much worse sales due to the negative word of mouth, than if they first fixed the PC version, regained some of the good will, and then tried mustering that to sell the console version?

 

[Abitus]

The community has been on fire for more than two weeks, I'm disappointed in state of the game but I'm more disappointed that it seems like CO is choosing to ignore most of what's been said the last two WoWs. This is severely harming the reputation of CO and PDX and all of these issues (lack of trust, misleading marketing, massive delays, unclear priorities, substantial steps to make things right, etc) really need to be addressed sooner rather than later. Many, many valid and critical points were raised last week, and instead today we talk about how the mod tools are even more broken than previously told and it may be a year before we get what was sold to us.

I'm just thinking as we speak here so maybe I'm just telling nonsense, I don't know. But following the thoughts from my previous messages, I feel like I'm only starting to see the whole thing now. Until very recently I was also very demanding of CO recognizing their faults and apologizing. Now it's like I finally start to understand what this will not happen, regardless of how repeatedly or strongly we ask for it.

If the goal is still to release the game on console the sooner as possible, then the official communication is probably focused on maintaining the "hype" at all costs (yeah we could easily argue that every bit of hype is gone from a long time now, but again : from the perspective on a console player who doesn't read the forums and only sees Biffa & co enjoying city painting, maybe there's still hype - at least we can assume that from these many "release date" requests on twitter and maybe other places too).

I think that both are part of the same strategy : never mention bad looking things in official communication AND focus on getting the console version ready. CO's hope is very likely to fix bugs at the same time and in the most discreet way possible.

And I think that the world where we could see excuses and aknowledgement of their errors would be a world where they have chosen the other strategy : sacrificing the hype on console (and at the same time an expected large source of income for 2024). But we're not living in that world.

I think we can assume that, as long as the priority stay focused on getting the console version ready, we'll not see the kind of honest communication we would want to read. I'm the first to deplore this situation. I expressed a lot of negative things against the way CO (and more specifically Mariina) has talked to us on the last weeks, either in these WOTW or in their auto-congratulating video. I strongly wish they had chosen the redemption strategy.

But as I was saying in my last message, maybe the numbers just don't allow them to take that risk. I mean risking the hard task of selling this game to console players in more than a year, with the memories of a confessed disaster as advertising. Maybe they just financially can't take that risk.

Honestly this whole situation remembers me of a lot of very similar moments at work, when as a developer you see what has to be done to make things right, but at the same time management keeps saying "no time ; money first". As a dev, it really annoys me that CO's strategy is money-driven and not tech-driven. But it seems this is what we're facing here.


If I'm guessing right, then it's sad but we can't do anything more. We have expressed our discontent in every way possible and it will not get any answer. We have filled these forums up with thousands of bug reports and suggestions, and they'll need months to address these alongside working on this console version. We've done all we could, now the best we can do is to wait and see if CO's chosen strategy finally pays. If it doesn't it will probably be fatal to them.

 

[anydaytv]

I don't believe CO has ever consciously chosen to lie to us, but, at the very least, been guilty of being too optimistic.

I'm going to tell you why people are probably going to disagree with you -- it's this "overly optimistic" behavior that has shattered the souls of bright eyed software developers and gamers alike.

Think about it: Here's CO, trying to curb our expectations now -- and somehow seemingly the right hand has no clue what the left hand was doing because they were the very ones that built up that expectation in the first place!

You don't get it both ways; Ask anyone good at their craft -- don't ever pump the client's expectations unless it's foolproof. EVER.

Like Teddy said: How could you not possibly know we'd be this far out? Unless it's by some act of God, it's nearly impossible.

I'm as optimistic about the future as you are, but we're definitely in for a long period of pain.