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Conclave Dev Diary #1

Hi folks, I hope you have all had a nice and relaxing holiday! However, just in case you didn’t, let me take the edge off your existential angst with some soothing talk about the next expansion for Crusader Kings II; a little thing we eventually decided to call Conclave...

As you know, most of CK2’s expansions have “widened” the gameplay by unlocking new regions of the map and making various religions playable. You can now start the game in widely different cultural spheres for a great variety of different experiences; “Fifty Shades of Dark”, if you will. Meanwhile, we have gradually improved the core gameplay in patches (e.g. the technology system), but rarely in any radical way. Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

Even so, it is high time that we addressed some of the major shortcomings of the strategy game that underpins the RPG experience. In particular, CK2 suffers from a kind of inverse difficulty progression; it is hard in the beginning and easy in the mid-to-late game. This is a great shame, because one of the main points of the whole feudal hierarchy mechanic - the need to rely on vassals - was to make it hard to maintain stable large Realms. So, my first and foremost intention with Conclave was to increase the challenge of the mid-to-late game. This was the general plan of action:

  • Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)
  • Highlight the most powerful vassals by making them strongly desire a Council seat.
  • Give the Council more power without reducing player agency. (You are free to disregard the Council’s suggestions, but this will have ramifications on Factions. More on this later...)
  • Introduce Infamy and Coalitions against aggressively expanding Realms.
  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)
  • Improve the diplomatic AI in order to contain “blobs” (with the help of the above Alliance and Coalition systems.)
  • Bring the military AI to a whole new level.
  • Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements. (Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall, introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)
Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Obligations.jpg


Thus, the features of Conclave and the accompanying patch are a combination of internal and external measures to make blobbing harder. This intention had ripple effects on other mechanics. For example, malcontents now tend to gang up into fewer but more powerful Factions, and we reworked the Law Screen while we were adding the new Council Power laws.

Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Council.jpg


We also took this opportunity to address an unrelated weakness in the game, namely the education of children. If you have the expansion, that whole experience should now be more interesting…

That’s all for now, stay tuned for the details!
 
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Okay, listen, I get it, the people on these forums are only the most dedicated, hardcore members of the fanbase each with hundreds of hours logged in. OF COURSE they'll start finding it too easy to maintain stable empires. But when you've had to put so much time in reading wikis, discussing strategies on forums, etc etc IT IS NOT EASY, at least not for the average player. I've logged over 200 hours into this. I've *earned* the right to large stable empires, and I'm sick of having to relearn the game every time a major patch is released. At this point I spend more time trying to cope with arbitrary difficulty spikes than actually enjoying the game. If you think maintaining a strong empire is easy, you've some major reading up to do on... Oh, pretty much every single major outlet review this game ever got. Notice a common complaint? Yup, the difficulty curve. So who had the brilliant idea that more difficulty is exactly what this game needed?

I understand that the hardcore audience needs to stay challenged, but that's what mods are for. Imagine if Firaxis forced Long War's changes into the base game, how do you think that would be recieved?

I think I'm gonna be reverting to 2.04... But that just feels so *wrong*.
 
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Okay, listen, I get it, the people on these forums are only the most dedicated, hardcore members of the fanbase each with hundreds of hours logged in. OF COURSE they'll start finding it too easy to maintain stable empires. But when you've had to put so much time in reading wikis, discussing strategies on forums, etc etc IT IS NOT EASY, at least not for the average player. I've logged over 200 hours into this. I've *earned* the right to large stable empires, and I'm sick of having to relearn the game every time a major patch is released. At this point I spend more time trying to cope with arbitrary difficulty spikes than actually enjoying the game. If you think maintaining a strong empire is easy, you've some major reading up to do on... Oh, pretty much every single major outlet review this game ever got. Notice a common complaint? Yup, the difficulty curve. So who had the brilliant idea that more difficulty is exactly what this game needed?

I understand that the hardcore audience needs to stay challenged, but that's what mods are for. Imagine if Firaxis forced Long War's changes into the base game, how do you think that would be recieved?

I think I'm gonna be reverting to 2.04... But that just feels so *wrong*.
Well the game is about trying to become king of your realm, or stay king if you already is. This blobbing is just an artifact feature because much of the game is based on EU mechancis. Internal struggles is what the game is about.
 
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Well the game is about trying to become king of your realm, or stay king if you already is. This blobbing is just an artifact feature because much of the game is based on EU mechancis. Internal struggles is what the game is about.
Indeed.
The way I see it, smaller realms (possibly isolated) are the best places where you can learn the game. And making large empires (around you) weaker, due to harsher internal mechanics, can only benefit the player that wants to learn the game. Nobody said that holding a large empire is some kind of an end goal to this game.
 
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I see the game this way. Duchy and kingdoms should be relative easy. But empires should be quite hard to manage and keep stable. Also Kingdoms going over the Dejure area should get progressive harder to hold together.
 
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Okay, listen, I get it, the people on these forums are only the most dedicated, hardcore members of the fanbase each with hundreds of hours logged in. OF COURSE they'll start finding it too easy to maintain stable empires. But when you've had to put so much time in reading wikis, discussing strategies on forums, etc etc IT IS NOT EASY, at least not for the average player. I've logged over 200 hours into this. I've *earned* the right to large stable empires, and I'm sick of having to relearn the game every time a major patch is released. At this point I spend more time trying to cope with arbitrary difficulty spikes than actually enjoying the game. If you think maintaining a strong empire is easy, you've some major reading up to do on... Oh, pretty much every single major outlet review this game ever got. Notice a common complaint? Yup, the difficulty curve. So who had the brilliant idea that more difficulty is exactly what this game needed?

I understand that the hardcore audience needs to stay challenged, but that's what mods are for. Imagine if Firaxis forced Long War's changes into the base game, how do you think that would be recieved?

I think I'm gonna be reverting to 2.04... But that just feels so *wrong*.

This game has been too easy once you get past a certain size from day one. We all went into it as new players, the only thing we knew about how to play was from reading pre-release dev diaries and the forum. The point of the game is not to grow an empire, but to guide a dynasty. If it's too easy to do the first, and too dull to do the second then the game needs fixing.
 
Well the game is about trying to become king of your realm, or stay king if you already is. This blobbing is just an artifact feature because much of the game is based on EU mechancis. Internal struggles is what the game is about.
Oh also in the early start dates it's about the nations unifying. That said that should be a somewhat natural process rather than something the players and their dynasty is suposed to do themselves sure they could ride the winds of change to greater power but the game should be focused on dynasties and characters.
 
Okay, listen, I get it, the people on these forums are only the most dedicated, hardcore members of the fanbase each with hundreds of hours logged in. OF COURSE they'll start finding it too easy to maintain stable empires. But when you've had to put so much time in reading wikis, discussing strategies on forums, etc etc IT IS NOT EASY, at least not for the average player. I've logged over 200 hours into this. I've *earned* the right to large stable empires, and I'm sick of having to relearn the game every time a major patch is released. At this point I spend more time trying to cope with arbitrary difficulty spikes than actually enjoying the game. If you think maintaining a strong empire is easy, you've some major reading up to do on... Oh, pretty much every single major outlet review this game ever got. Notice a common complaint? Yup, the difficulty curve. So who had the brilliant idea that more difficulty is exactly what this game needed?

I understand that the hardcore audience needs to stay challenged, but that's what mods are for. Imagine if Firaxis forced Long War's changes into the base game, how do you think that would be recieved?

I think I'm gonna be reverting to 2.04... But that just feels so *wrong*.
The mechanics that will make it harder to maintain a large realm you've "earned", such as those discussed in this thread, are only in the DLC. You don't have to give up the free patch to avoid the new internal realm mechanics. So I'm not entirely sure what you're concerned about as far as breaking up stable empires.

The only mechanism I've seen discussed so far that adds what you're calling difficulty in the free patch is coalitions, which will not do anything to break apart realms you've "earned". And it's a very targeted type of added difficulty that seems structured in such a way that it will really only affect those players who demonstrate they're ready to handle it, and will probably only make a difference at all in the mid-game. If you're aggressively expanding, you can hardly claim that you still find the game too difficult. I don't expect coalitions to do much in the early game at all, when there is the most challenge right now.

I'd also argue that you're confusing difficulty with complexity. The learning curve is steep, but that's because there is a lot going on and the game does not fit into a traditional genre where we all already know the basics going in. All of which gives the illusion of difficulty, but as it turns out it most of the intricacies don't seem to matter as much as you originally think, especially once you reach a certain size. In fact, once you see what is going on, too much complexity tends to make games easier, because the more complex a game is, the more overmatched the AI becomes. Once you are a large enough blob to start gobbling up neighboring kingdoms, it doesn't much matter whether you marry well, or if your heir is a simpleton, or even if your vassals like you that much. Don't pick fights with other large blobs until you are bigger. Independent kingdoms are simply no match for an empire. Invite a kingdom title claimant, press his claim, siege a few counties, blob expands. I'm not a hardcore gamer, I haven't studied advanced techniques or used exploits. I'm a middle-aged family man with very little time to play games, and I am fairly new to the grand strategy genre. In my first long playthrough, it has become clear that while it is a challenge to build an empire, and if I'd chosen a more difficult start it would been a lot harder to build the empire in the first place. But once built, I can't imagine how it would be considered challenging to expand it or maintain it.

As for the idea that difficulty should be modded in rather than added by the developers: Modding more difficulty in a game where you are playing against the AI is nearly impossible if the mechanics aren't already built in to do that, unless you just artificially stack the deck against the human player. I haven't experimented with the mods here yet, but in my experience when modders try to add complex new ideas into a game is that it tends to hamper the AI more than it does the player, because the AI wasn't programmed to handle those new mechanics. It will probably be a lot easier to mod coalitions out of the game, than it would have been to mod them into the game if not supported by the developers.
 
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This game has been too easy once you get past a certain size from day one. We all went into it as new players, the only thing we knew about how to play was from reading pre-release dev diaries and the forum. The point of the game is not to grow an empire, but to guide a dynasty. If it's too easy to do the first, and too dull to do the second then the game needs fixing.
While I don't agree with the person you are responding to, I find this post completely misleading. The original release difficulty for having a large empire was far higher than the current release. All because of one mechanic, distance modifier. Not to mention the fact that succession wars would break out 90% of the time when rulers died. Add to that the option of having an empire was extremely limited and rebellions actually were rebellions. I can't remember the last time I had a succession war, they were fun.

The largest I was able to maintain was as Ireland, Iceland to Africa and across to Crete. With the capital in Brittany and only Kingdom level.

Rebellions were super scary because one revolt increased revolt risk of everyone else and would result in every vassal rebelling. That risk tab in the intrigue window was used so much in any game I played and constant gifting vassals gold. When was the last time anyone legitimately used the risk tab? Probably 2014.

The addition of Factions and Empires with the removal of distance made the game 500% easier. Now restoring the Roman Empire is meh easy. The game at day one was easier for smaller realms than for large realms and getting past a set point would result in massive wars. Large realms now I don't give out gifts or even honorary titles, because vassals just don't rebel and if they do they aren't that scary.

As for learning curve, yup there is one. Every game has one and this game has a lot of things to learn to master. If you don't like games that have depth in mechanics, then obviously this game isn't for you. But if you do like them, then rolling back to an earlier patch isn't going to help you. If there is something you don't know, ask the community. Chances are there are many ways to deal with it. Using a different version removes your ability to ask the community because most people aren't using the old version.
 
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