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Conclave Dev Diary #1

Hi folks, I hope you have all had a nice and relaxing holiday! However, just in case you didn’t, let me take the edge off your existential angst with some soothing talk about the next expansion for Crusader Kings II; a little thing we eventually decided to call Conclave...

As you know, most of CK2’s expansions have “widened” the gameplay by unlocking new regions of the map and making various religions playable. You can now start the game in widely different cultural spheres for a great variety of different experiences; “Fifty Shades of Dark”, if you will. Meanwhile, we have gradually improved the core gameplay in patches (e.g. the technology system), but rarely in any radical way. Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

Even so, it is high time that we addressed some of the major shortcomings of the strategy game that underpins the RPG experience. In particular, CK2 suffers from a kind of inverse difficulty progression; it is hard in the beginning and easy in the mid-to-late game. This is a great shame, because one of the main points of the whole feudal hierarchy mechanic - the need to rely on vassals - was to make it hard to maintain stable large Realms. So, my first and foremost intention with Conclave was to increase the challenge of the mid-to-late game. This was the general plan of action:

  • Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)
  • Highlight the most powerful vassals by making them strongly desire a Council seat.
  • Give the Council more power without reducing player agency. (You are free to disregard the Council’s suggestions, but this will have ramifications on Factions. More on this later...)
  • Introduce Infamy and Coalitions against aggressively expanding Realms.
  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)
  • Improve the diplomatic AI in order to contain “blobs” (with the help of the above Alliance and Coalition systems.)
  • Bring the military AI to a whole new level.
  • Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements. (Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall, introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)
Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Obligations.jpg


Thus, the features of Conclave and the accompanying patch are a combination of internal and external measures to make blobbing harder. This intention had ripple effects on other mechanics. For example, malcontents now tend to gang up into fewer but more powerful Factions, and we reworked the Law Screen while we were adding the new Council Power laws.

Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Council.jpg


We also took this opportunity to address an unrelated weakness in the game, namely the education of children. If you have the expansion, that whole experience should now be more interesting…

That’s all for now, stay tuned for the details!
 
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Just catching up on the upcoming DLC. Have not read all posts here and perhaps its been mentioned ....

I am somewhat concerned on 'making battles less bloody' and shattered retreats ... I don't know what the plan for implementation is but sometimes I already feel like I am playing 'whackamole' running down weakened but retreating units. I would not like to see this get worse. In point of fact it would seem most period battles were won in key single engagement. I am not sure I like the idea of chasing more stragglers around to get warscore. What is the plan for implementation on this particular item?
 
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I wonder how will the council work with merchant republics/nomads? I doubt nomads will have it but will merchant republics? If merchant republics have it, will it only include the patricians? Just my thoughts.
 
Just catching up on the upcoming DLC. Have not read all posts here and perhaps its been mentioned ....

I am somewhat concerned on 'making battles less bloody' and shattered retreats ... I don't know what the plan for implementation is but sometimes I already feel like I am playing 'whackamole' running down weakened but retreating units. I would not like to see this get worse. In point of fact it would seem most period battles were won in key single engagement. I am not sure I like the idea of chasing more stragglers around to get warscore. What is the plan for implementation on this particular item?

Everyone seems to miss the point that there are dozens of strategies that can be use to avoid shattered retreats. The simplest is to simply have a dedicated light cav or light infantry force whose sole purpose is to block retreats and or catch up to and pin retreating units. Once battle begins in this game it can take a while finish, this will buy the time necessary for the main force to follow up and smack the retreating force again and and again and again.Leader's with the Organiser trait are also good for this as they add to the units move speed.

All in all I don't see this as being a terrible mechanic at all, in the contrary it should make it easier for humans over AI, who are notoriously lousy at preparing flanking forces and or scouting units.

EDIT - That's not how SR works, I stand corrected.
 
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Everyone seems to miss the point that there are dozens of strategies that can be use to avoid shattered retreats. The simplest is to simply have a dedicated light cav or light infantry force whose sole purpose is to block retreats and or catch up to and pin retreating units. Once battle begins in this game it can take a while finish, this will buy the time necessary for the main force to follow up and smack the retreating force again and and again and again.Leader's with the Organiser trait are also good for this as they add to the units move speed.

All in all I don't see this as being a terrible mechanic at all, in the contrary it should make it easier for humans over AI, who are notoriously lousy at preparing flanking forces and or scouting units.
If shattered retreat in CK2 works in a similar way to EU4, what happens is that once an army is defeated, it starts an automated forced march to the nearest friendly land. While in this state the defeated army cannot be engaged in battle or touched in any way. So if the defeated army is on its own land, it will shatter-retreat to an adjacent province. If it is in foreign land on the other hand, it will shatter-retreat all the way to its borders.
 
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If shattered retreat in CK2 works in a similar way to EU4, what happens is that once an army is defeated, it starts an automated forced march to the nearest friendly land. While in this state the defeated army cannot be engaged in battle or touched in any way. So if the defeated army is on its own land, it will shatter-retreat to an adjacent province. If it is in foreign land on the other hand, it will shatter-retreat all the way to its borders.
Just think of how terrible shattered retreat will be when there's a Crusade for a kingdom in India and you lose a battle. You'd have to sit there and begrudgingly watch your units walk all the way back to Europe...
 
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Just think of how terrible shattered retreat will be when there's a Crusade for a kingdom in India and you lose a battle. You'd have to sit there and begrudgingly watch your units walk all the way back to Europe...
And what's more, in EU4, you can win a war by gaining only 20 victory score, while in CK2, it's 100. I won't be surprised if a war will last 10 years after adding this.
 
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If shattered retreat in CK2 works in a similar way to EU4, what happens is that once an army is defeated, it starts an automated forced march to the nearest friendly land. While in this state the defeated army cannot be engaged in battle or touched in any way. So if the defeated army is on its own land, it will shatter-retreat to an adjacent province. If it is in foreign land on the other hand, it will shatter-retreat all the way to its borders.

I stand corrected.

Spot the player who has never played EUIV :oops:
 
The realization of how bad the shattered retreat mechanic will work in CK2 has really changed my perspective on this patch

..and who told you that it will be as in EU4 ?..or are you just flame baiting by now ?

How about the word "would"...as in "would work..if it's implemented as in EU4"..
Just sayin'.
 
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You've never played with shattered retreat in CK2, nor has there been a description of how it will work. How about stopping the non-sense about how it is bad without any evidence. Speculation is one thing, but saying it is a bad idea, based on speculation is just wasting time.
 
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  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)

Looks nice, but unclear to me how this would affect civil war. Right now you either side with the liege or against him. Would we be looking at a change on how civil war is handled (e.g. GoT's Westero system)?
 
You've never played with shattered retreat in CK2, nor has there been a description of how it will work. How about stopping the non-sense about how it is bad without any evidence. Speculation is one thing, but saying it is a bad idea, based on speculation is just wasting time.
I believe the devs stated that it would work as it does in EU4
 
Wait, we can't force vassals to contribute large portion of both troops and cash at once any more? WHY, DEVS, WHY?
Some things were not meant to be...
 
Everyone seems to miss the point that there are dozens of strategies that can be use to avoid shattered retreats. The simplest is to simply have a dedicated light cav or light infantry force whose sole purpose is to block retreats and or catch up to and pin retreating units. Once battle begins in this game it can take a while finish, this will buy the time necessary for the main force to follow up and smack the retreating force again and and again and again.Leader's with the Organiser trait are also good for this as they add to the units move speed.

All in all I don't see this as being a terrible mechanic at all, in the contrary it should make it easier for humans over AI, who are notoriously lousy at preparing flanking forces and or scouting units.

I would agree that there are strategies to mitigate the impact of having to chase down retreating units and certainly 'fast' armies blocking retreats is one. But as others have stated, we don't really know how this mechanic will be implemented. Will it be akin to EU4 where units get to retreat unmolested to some 'safe' area? It is the "follow up and smack the retreating force again and again" when the war is already effectively won that we already do. I would just hope it does not become more prevalent or necessary with the new Conclave mechanics, whatever they may be. Would be nice to see a devlog on this mechanic.
 
Those changes are looking very good! There is one exception though. THe shattered retreat mechanics and the less bloody battles. There is no manpower in this game so, a war between two major powers could effectively take on decades (which is not bad per se, but by the way this looks it won't be in a fun way), and, more importantly, won't it decisively limit the potential of a small ruler to win wars agains a bigger one? if the bigger rulers have endless supplies of troops, battles become useless (which is not the case in euIV). I don't know if this is a good change