• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Conclave Dev Diary #1

Hi folks, I hope you have all had a nice and relaxing holiday! However, just in case you didn’t, let me take the edge off your existential angst with some soothing talk about the next expansion for Crusader Kings II; a little thing we eventually decided to call Conclave...

As you know, most of CK2’s expansions have “widened” the gameplay by unlocking new regions of the map and making various religions playable. You can now start the game in widely different cultural spheres for a great variety of different experiences; “Fifty Shades of Dark”, if you will. Meanwhile, we have gradually improved the core gameplay in patches (e.g. the technology system), but rarely in any radical way. Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

Even so, it is high time that we addressed some of the major shortcomings of the strategy game that underpins the RPG experience. In particular, CK2 suffers from a kind of inverse difficulty progression; it is hard in the beginning and easy in the mid-to-late game. This is a great shame, because one of the main points of the whole feudal hierarchy mechanic - the need to rely on vassals - was to make it hard to maintain stable large Realms. So, my first and foremost intention with Conclave was to increase the challenge of the mid-to-late game. This was the general plan of action:

  • Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)
  • Highlight the most powerful vassals by making them strongly desire a Council seat.
  • Give the Council more power without reducing player agency. (You are free to disregard the Council’s suggestions, but this will have ramifications on Factions. More on this later...)
  • Introduce Infamy and Coalitions against aggressively expanding Realms.
  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)
  • Improve the diplomatic AI in order to contain “blobs” (with the help of the above Alliance and Coalition systems.)
  • Bring the military AI to a whole new level.
  • Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements. (Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall, introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)
Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Obligations.jpg


Thus, the features of Conclave and the accompanying patch are a combination of internal and external measures to make blobbing harder. This intention had ripple effects on other mechanics. For example, malcontents now tend to gang up into fewer but more powerful Factions, and we reworked the Law Screen while we were adding the new Council Power laws.

Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Council.jpg


We also took this opportunity to address an unrelated weakness in the game, namely the education of children. If you have the expansion, that whole experience should now be more interesting…

That’s all for now, stay tuned for the details!
 
  • 193
  • 50
  • 12
Reactions:
I personally bought LoR because of Rome ^^
New events, possibilty to reform the empire and so on. But yeah even if lot's of people would say they would be ok with moving retinues to the basegame, Paradox still probably wouldn't do it
There is still the silent majority, who doesn't read the forum and could get pissed, also there are probably some legal pitfalls.

This kind of change wouldn't even register with the silent majority, it would absolutely be the loud minority complaining about the 5$ (yes, it was 5) they paid over THREE years ago.

If this is all that is keeping Paradox from doing something cool with the retinue mechanics, they should just bite the bullet and do it, the people who would complain are dumb anyway.
 
  • 10
Reactions:
This kind of change wouldn't even register with the silent majority, it would absolutely be the loud minority complaining about the 5$ (yes, it was 5) they paid over THREE years ago.

If this is all that is keeping Paradox from doing something cool with the retinue mechanics, they should just bite the bullet and do it, the people who would complain are dumb anyway.
Unless they added another feature to LOR so they could transfer retinues to the base game.

Palace coups, for instance :p
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Unless they added another feature to LOR so they could transfer retinues to the base game.

Palace coups, for instance :p

They loud minority would still complain because they paid 5$ last year/week only for retinues :p
 
  • 1
Reactions:
They loud minority would still complain because they paid 5$ last year/week only for retinues :p
The moany feckers.

Let's crowdfund the Legacy of Rome hardship fund. For just 5 euro a month you can give some tight-arsed whingebag less reason to crib and moan :p
 
  • 5
Reactions:
So,i assume that we will get another dev diary next Tuesday?

I hope that the devs give us some insight on the council mechanics.I am hoping for a "Game of Thrones council" level of depth,especially when playing as the council member,which is non-existent in the base game
 
  • 3
Reactions:
So,i assume that we will get another dev diary next Tuesday?

I hope that the devs give us some insight on the council mechanics.I am hoping for a "Game of Thrones council" level of depth,especially when playing as the council member,which is non-existent in the base game

Right? My favorite start is with a CC countess of Syrakousa in the 867 start and having her finagle her way into the empresses seat, becoming spymaster and killing Basil's kids so her's can rule ie she can rule from the shadows. Of course a lot of that has to take place in my head, which I am primarily fine with but I would be so HYPED if being on the council/being regent now gives me actual, tangible power.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
As far as I see it, it will be an interesting battle for Council seats, but whether those seats will matter much (beside Regent position), I'm not too sure.
 
Looking forward to Conclave!
For my part, I am pro moving features into the core game, even if I previously purchased DLC to give me said feature, if it enables the game to continue to deepen. As a developer, I COMPLETELY understand how this happens :)
 
  • 7
Reactions:
Paradox should implement a policy that after 1 year, features in earlier expansions that are critical to future updates are made part of the base game.
 
  • 4
  • 3
Reactions:
PARADOX: UPGRADE RETINUES!

Either make it a 'free feature' that only works with Legacy of Rome enabled.
Or Make the upgrade/rework require both legacy of Rome and Conclave (or next patch).
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
I'm pretty hyped about this DLC it sounds awesome.

I agree also about expanding the retinue system. If there is some way that it can be implemented then, please Paradox, try and find a way to do it. If it means moving the retinue system into the base game then I am totally happy to see you do this. There will always be people who complain no matter what you do so don't worry too much about it.
 
Since Groogy replied to my last minor feedback I thought I'd bring up something else.

The new 'Russian' portraits are too pale. I'm sure they're still a work in progress but I made this semi-scientific image to show that they're likely the palest portraits yet:

qWAIvti.jpg

I used only dev diary screen shots because I figure they're likely similar colour quality and I took a sample from directly in the middle of their forehead or as close as i could get. The ones with the blue ! are 'russian'.

I don't mind the actual colour of the 'russians' but I think they could be greatly improved by slightly more flushed cheeks like their norse neighbours.

By the way I love the new 'Italian' portraits and I think they're exactly the right colour for that area.
 
  • 4
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Oh, Groog the Bear, mightiest of the Æsir! My plea goes to you, Great One! Will the Alans ever get adjustments to reflect their Iranian background?

I mean, I can understand why the Russian portraits may be used, and I can just marry some Afghans if I want to change that, but I'm not sure the Russians units are the best fit. The Persian units would probably fit best, as the archers and horse archers look perfect, and the other models, for what use they will get, are still pretty nice. The general Persian influence over the steppe, too, could justify it.

I don't know, just a suggestion that, evidently, I am not alone in thinking. I like the Alans, they're unique, and thanks to their situation, they get some of the most diverse things naturally. Russian faces, units, and music, as well as Byzantine music and cultural features, as well as being nomads. Toss in the Persian units to replace Russian ones, and it becomes not only more accurate in theory, but further increases diversity.

Religiously, they should also probably be considered Zoroastrian or Zunist, as the pagan Alans followed Iranian paganism with mixed Zoroastrian elements, and Zunism is the best representation for that. Again, though, I can do this in-game already, so it's not a big issue. The only thing I can't fix are the units, which mess up Ironman if I try.

I would pay for this, although it does not seem like a very big alteration. Now just seemed a good time to suggest a small side-feature while a new expansion was in development.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Why is there so much moaning about the new coalition mechanic? Could everybody just take a look around at the map for a moment? Do you see those blobs? The ones created by the AI and you (or which the AI and you began with, depending on whether you chose a blob as your starting nation or not)?

Yeah? See them?

Now do you see how they never, ever fall? Because they can gobble up their neighbours with impunity and their vassals are never powerful enough to challenge the liege because of the changes made in Rajas which made factions weak and pathetic?

WHY would anybody want this sad state of affairs to continue? Do you REALLY want to have a blob empire and never lose a single county ever? Why bother playing a strategy game if you don't want situations to arise where your power/blob is challenged? What's the point of that?
 
  • 8
  • 3
Reactions:
Why is there so much moaning about the new coalition mechanic? Could everybody just take a look around at the map for a moment? Do you see those blobs? The ones created by the AI and you (or which the AI and you began with, depending on whether you chose a blob as your starting nation or not)?

Yeah? See them?

Now do you see how they never, ever fall? Because they can gobble up their neighbours with impunity and their vassals are never powerful enough to challenge the liege because of the changes made in Rajas which made factions weak and pathetic?

WHY would anybody want this sad state of affairs to continue? Do you REALLY want to have a blob empire and never lose a single county ever? Why bother playing a strategy game if you don't want situations to arise where your power/blob is challenged? What's the point of that?
We don't even know what effect will this feature have. Maybe it will greatly fit the game and help with the blob problem.
It's not yet released.
And yet, some people are quick to judge, only based on experience from another game.
Paradox won't certainly remove the feature now.
Let's judge the feature once we get our hands on it first.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Why is there so much moaning about the new coalition mechanic? Could everybody just take a look around at the map for a moment? Do you see those blobs? The ones created by the AI and you (or which the AI and you began with, depending on whether you chose a blob as your starting nation or not)?

Yeah? See them?

Now do you see how they never, ever fall? Because they can gobble up their neighbours with impunity and their vassals are never powerful enough to challenge the liege because of the changes made in Rajas which made factions weak and pathetic?

WHY would anybody want this sad state of affairs to continue? Do you REALLY want to have a blob empire and never lose a single county ever? Why bother playing a strategy game if you don't want situations to arise where your power/blob is challenged? What's the point of that?
My moaning is about the fact that literally no blob vanished while it was healthy and fit, and at the same time no blob was healthy and fit for long. Coalitions are useless in this regard because it misses the point by a mile or so: we don't need external restraints, blobs evaporated even without external influence. We need internal restraints. Will The Conclave fit this role? Maybe. EU4 wasted a lot of nice opportunities that looked awesome on paper, so I'm considerably more sedate. But the possibilities are there: we just need the devs to not tone down stuff beyond the reasonable when someone gets a 0/0/0/0/0 to the throne of the European Empire and complains because it's collapsing.
 
  • 7
  • 3
Reactions:
My moaning is about the fact that literally no blob vanished while it was healthy and fit, and at the same time no blob was healthy and fit for long. Coalitions are useless in this regard because it misses the point by a mile or so: we don't need external restraints, blobs evaporated even without external influence. We need internal restraints. Will The Conclave fit this role? Maybe. EU4 wasted a lot of nice opportunities that looked awesome on paper, so I'm considerably more sedate. But the possibilities are there: we just need the devs to not tone down stuff beyond the reasonable when someone gets a 0/0/0/0/0 to the throne of the European Empire and complains because it's collapsing.

Is it possible that not being able to expand places more internal constraints on your realm? People get fidgety; you have fewer titles to hand around; peace allows more factions to form and fire etc.

Just a thought.
 
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:
We had DDs about Coalitions and Infamy, shattered retreats, new alliances and non-aggression pacts, revised interface changes for laws, overhauled councils...
From what I remember, we didn't hear much about the education of children and improved military AI. Also, we didn't see how that Council tab in the Laws section looks like.
Unless there are some features that aren't yet revealed, I assume we will see 2 more Dev Diaries at most.
So, possibly a late January / early February release day for the expansion?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Will the Conclave patch include some of the recent EUIV improvements?
It would be nice if CK2 would also have the improved launcher, battle indicator and skip song button added to it.
 
  • 4
Reactions: