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Conclave Dev Diary #1

Hi folks, I hope you have all had a nice and relaxing holiday! However, just in case you didn’t, let me take the edge off your existential angst with some soothing talk about the next expansion for Crusader Kings II; a little thing we eventually decided to call Conclave...

As you know, most of CK2’s expansions have “widened” the gameplay by unlocking new regions of the map and making various religions playable. You can now start the game in widely different cultural spheres for a great variety of different experiences; “Fifty Shades of Dark”, if you will. Meanwhile, we have gradually improved the core gameplay in patches (e.g. the technology system), but rarely in any radical way. Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

Even so, it is high time that we addressed some of the major shortcomings of the strategy game that underpins the RPG experience. In particular, CK2 suffers from a kind of inverse difficulty progression; it is hard in the beginning and easy in the mid-to-late game. This is a great shame, because one of the main points of the whole feudal hierarchy mechanic - the need to rely on vassals - was to make it hard to maintain stable large Realms. So, my first and foremost intention with Conclave was to increase the challenge of the mid-to-late game. This was the general plan of action:

  • Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)
  • Highlight the most powerful vassals by making them strongly desire a Council seat.
  • Give the Council more power without reducing player agency. (You are free to disregard the Council’s suggestions, but this will have ramifications on Factions. More on this later...)
  • Introduce Infamy and Coalitions against aggressively expanding Realms.
  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)
  • Improve the diplomatic AI in order to contain “blobs” (with the help of the above Alliance and Coalition systems.)
  • Bring the military AI to a whole new level.
  • Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements. (Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall, introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)
Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Obligations.jpg


Thus, the features of Conclave and the accompanying patch are a combination of internal and external measures to make blobbing harder. This intention had ripple effects on other mechanics. For example, malcontents now tend to gang up into fewer but more powerful Factions, and we reworked the Law Screen while we were adding the new Council Power laws.

Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Council.jpg


We also took this opportunity to address an unrelated weakness in the game, namely the education of children. If you have the expansion, that whole experience should now be more interesting…

That’s all for now, stay tuned for the details!
 
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I have to be honest and say that I don't really follow the selling point of this DLC.
I love CK2, just as I love the rest of the series. CK2 is the bestselling GSG from the company to date.

But what is really going to push people to buy this? Just tweaks to make the game harder, more challenging, without necessarily adding to the colour of each game?
I can understand, and indeed praise the idea of making it less likely that realms will grow too large indefinitely. But my understanding of history is that this "blobbing" ended for a multitude of reasons. Independence of kingdoms after the death of kings, minority cultures and religions fighting off their oppressors.

(New cultures evolving from different circumstances over hundreds of years and breaking off from the previous family)

I seemed to notice that cultural spread is far too easy in CK2 (HRE in charge of Italian State: By 1400, Italians turn into Germans).

But I digress. Additional events to educate children, a council that has some political considerations behind it in keeping the realm together.. Great. But I don't think many will see this as essential DLC without more in it.

People usually install free mods in games to make them harder. They don't pay 20 dollars/€/£ to just be able to tear their hair out more.

More events, more mechanics, greater customization and flavour for different nations and cultural groups. A believable organic historical timeline is what players wish to be apart of. I admit that there is great interest for many to continue their games into EU4 using the converter, so this is also a consideration.

As a side note: Maybe I'm the only one that didn't get the memo, but why are there no naval battles in CK2? Are the sea routes privatized neutral territory?
 
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THIS! So this! But then by that reasoning wouldn't the player also need a regent if they are leading armies outside of their demense?
that is a great idea! give that "designated regent" title more to do. probably could make playing a vassal more fun as well. give your steward and chancellor something else to be mad at you for. maybe the council's approval required for a regency's decision, rather than a recommendation like kings.

it would make that in hiding mechanic more interesting too, since you might just star sowing plots to get the king to leave the seat open.

Coalitions in CK2 - OK, but for a CK2-Issue, the Coalitions should fight against the Character (not against the Empire, Kingdom, Duchy, County) ...
So in the Case, that the (aggressive) Conquerer is dead, the Coalition-Penalty is over and the Coalition dissolves itself ...
Or we have a Worst-Case-Scenario with the intern Conflicts after a Succession in your Empire/Kingdom/Duchy/County and the extern War against a Coalition.
Good point
 
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I think my biggest thing is not things that make expansion more difficult but things that make peacetime more interesting as the peacetime aspects of the game is the weakest part of the time. It seems like there should be more interactions between you, your vassals, your court, your liege, the church, your fellow lords or patricians and your subjects. It should be interesting and engaging to play the game during peacetime instead of it just being a time between wars that you build things.
 
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I personally bought LoR because of Rome ^^
New events, possibilty to reform the empire and so on. But yeah even if lot's of people would say they would be ok with moving retinues to the basegame, Paradox still probably wouldn't do it
There is still the silent majority, who doesn't read the forum and could get pissed, also there are probably some legal pitfalls.

Legal ramifications? Nah, doubtful. Look at Civ5 and Spain. Originally a DLC added into an expansion simply deciding "You paid for advanced access."

Not to mention, at only $5.50, it wouldn't be hard for Paradox to go "Ok, we will no longer be charging for Legacy of Rome."
 
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I'd have to agree with Ashagar, there's just not much to do when you are at peace. It's about the only thing exciting to do at some points, especially regencies. The AI also wages war constantly because it is amazingly dumb. Fix the AI and give us more to do in peacetime. Bam. Game fixed. People are still going to WC in 25 years and hold together their uber stable Europe Empire the entire gametime, that doesn't mean we should be focusing on realm stability.

You want to know what is really going to happen? Players are going to find a way to cheese past all these limitations (like Vassal Limits and Imperial Administration, or Gavelkind and bum-rushing CA to succession law changes) and then come back to the forums to whine and complain about how the game is easy again.
 
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I'd have to agree with Ashagar, there's just not much to do when you are at peace. It's about the only thing exciting to do at some points, especially regencies. The AI also wages war constantly because it is amazingly dumb. Fix the AI and give us more to do in peacetime. Bam. Game fixed. People are still going to WC in 25 years and hold together their uber stable Europe Empire the entire gametime, that doesn't mean we should be focusing on realm stability.

You want to know what is really going to happen? Players are going to find a way to cheese past all these limitations (like Vassal Limits and Imperial Administration, or Gavelkind and bum-rushing CA to succession law changes) and then come back to the forums to whine and complain about how the game is easy again.

If this keeps up they're going to nerf the casuals right out of the market. And that would be a shame...

Incidentally, the best way to make a Hard Game for the Elites, while keeping an easy game for the Casuals, would be to expand the Difficulty Slider to encompass all sorts of Easiness and hardness. By expanding the Slider, and giving it teeth, you could wind up with everything, all the way from an "I-win Button" at one end of the spectrum, to an "I-Lose" Button at the other end.

Balancing games should *NEVER* be about pleasing one side at the expense of another. Especially in a Single-player game...
 
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Shouldn't "addressing some of the major shortcomings" be called Patch, instead of DLC?

Huge LOL at this comment... Are you new to the series, and have yet to realise that with each new DLC, a free patch for everybody who owns the game, with the DLC or not, gets the improvements on systems for free?
 
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Incidentally, the best way to make a Hard Game for the Elites, while keeping an easy game for the Casuals, would be to expand the Difficulty Slider to encompass all sorts of Easiness and hardness. By expanding the Slider, and giving it teeth, you could wind up with everything, all the way from an "I-win Button" at one end of the spectrum, to an "I-Lose" Button at the other end.

You really want to know what'd help lower realm stability? If they fixed the broken systems we already had. Factions could tear apart a realm. Or Decadence. Or Nomad Succession. All of which are way more historical and fitting in CK2 than grand-alliance nonsense. Why they don't do that instead of adding new systems that are sure to break like every other thing limiting stability?

I'm not really sure, but a small cynical part of me is whispering "money."
 
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... Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

So make it part of the base game already. There are plenty of things that could be added to LoR that don't involve base mechanics.
 
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You really want to know what'd help lower realm stability? If they fixed the broken systems we already had. Factions could tear apart a realm. Or Decadence. Or Nomad Succession. All of which are way more historical and fitting in CK2 than grand-alliance nonsense. Why they don't do that instead of adding new systems that are sure to break like every other thing limiting stability?

I'm not really sure, but a small cynical part of me is whispering "money."

Money? The AE stuff is free patch stuff... And coalitions did happen...
 
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Money as in incentives to get the new DLC. Sure this will all be free patch, but things like a Council that is actually important and could threaten your realm? That'll be DLC. They are hyping people for the new DLC with promises of challenge instead of promises of substance. Coalitions did happen, but you know what they do? They stop further exansion. It does -nothing- to destabilize a realm. All it will be is a balancing factor, once a coalition gets large enough that the blob in question can't steamroll it anymore, that's when they stop expanding (or in the AI's case, enter eternal war). Blobs will still exist, they won't collapse because there is no pressure. They will simply be contained.

You, as a player, will not face any more opposition internally than you did before. You'll expand your borders as you did before, as far as you can, and then a coalition will appear that you can't beat and you'll realize that this new 'system' means you get to sit on your hands 60 years watching the rivers freeze and the spread of Lover's Pox. Then you expand more until a coalition appears again, and you go back to waiting.

Absolutely enthralling gameplay, no?
 
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Is the "Powerful Vassal" solely related to the vassal's military, or do other things (economy, titles) factor in? Is it possible to link the "Power" to some titles specifically regardless of levies, economy or other factors? For instance, in the AGoT mod, the Commander of the King's Guard could very well expect a place on the council as an advisor without actually having an army of his own, so to speak.

In short, can there be other conditions for a vassal to expect a place on the council?
 
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When you cannot expand, consolidate!
 
Rather than having a regent, which in this game is somewhat disastrous right now, vassals should just be more "rambunctious" when their liege is not physically within the realm for extended periods, whether on council missions for his liege, leading troops, on pilgrimage, etc. For example, a crusading king should be more susceptible to problems back home, like Prince John trying to consolidate his own power in King Richard's long-term absence. The difference between a pilgrimage (regent assigned) and crusading (no regent) is an odd contradiction, but should be resolved in favor of fewer regencies, not more.

I also think it is kind of silly that councilors are physically located where the mission is being performed like they are some kind of lackey or messenger boy. Maybe they should just be physically located in their liege's capital when they are on missions, especially now that the council will have a more substantial role. Which in the scheme I suggested would mean that the councilor's own vassals would be more difficult to manage during those times since a councilor in his liege's capital would not be in his own realm.

I think the argument against introducing character locations into the game was that i) it is too heavy on performance, and ii) it doesn't add much to the game.

I wonder if now is the time to re-think this. Is it a good idea to have character locations but only for landed vassals, council members, and commanders? Perhaps with a transit time between locations to stop teleportation?

If I have a big disagreement with a powerful vassal, I'd like it if he refused to be summoned to my court or lead my armies.

On a different note, if I put a powerful vassal who hates my guts in command of my army, it would be cool if I had to worry about mutiny and him marching on my capital instead. More practically I'd like it if there was some penalty or danger to appointing army leaders who hate you.
 
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I do have to admit I am a bit worried by this... namely on how to keep realms that are already fracturing way too easily together!

Namely France. An entity that despite its historical significance shatters into a million pieces with alarming frequency.
That's only because of Aquitaine, though, as it turns France into an easily broken personal union. Most other kingdoms don't have that issue.
 
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I think that this is an awesome DLC you're preparing us ! Finally some expansion on intern politics ! This was long expected !

Through all my CK II games, I use to start as a count and get my dynasty to the thrones, by political and influence game, or, some time (most of the time in fact), I just prefer to stay a Grand Duke with my counties, three duchy and my vassals at my boots, following every command of mine because I tolerate their presence, and nothing more ... amassing golds and treasures, and driving the country behind the curtain, with the King in my hand, my daughters as a queen, my sons at the council. And prepare for the next crusade when my armies will go to the holy land, lead the invasion and offer me the opportunity to give the title of King of Jerusalem to one of my brothers ... (Because I don't care about it : it's far away and full of sarrasins. I'm doing this to get the Pope in my pocket. Need him here. In Europe. The Pope. Not the brothers. He is boring. He wants land. And building Castle to give them to brothers is expensive. And risky.) That would be an awesome goal to reach.

But the games mechanics aren't deep enough to really fullfil this fantasm :(. I cannot completly feel like Tywin Lannister >.< ! So, I have great hopes for this DLC. What you are saying about the relations from the King to the vassal is great. But I'm waiting to see what it will look like from the vassals to the king ! Hoping you will make something awesome with internal politics, offering more opportunities to vassals to put their interests at the heart of their kings and forces them by other means than just creating factions (which are also very hard to trully manage. It's never like if I started a true political group with it's own will and goal ... More like I raise a claim, and some guys (that mostly I don't care about) decide to come and follow me ... An option to "invite into faction" for example would be a good idea), threatening, or comploting. Having my daughter as a spouse should be a fine way to suggest some stuff at night, in the king's chamber, or befriend the king might also unlock some new possibilities for intrigants ...

  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)

I'm really waiting for the Dev Diary on this matter, to see how you will do this. As the story of Alienor d'Aquitaine (Or with the expansion of the Capetian dynasty through Europe) shows it during French History, mariages were really important in the medieval diplomacy and could totally change, break up, and switch the history of a country. I have always found them very powerful in CK II, but also very hard to manage correctly to trully takes benefits from them, and the most common situation I face during my games is "Hum ok, so because of this very old Alliance contracted 50 years ago, now my throne is at a threat and the game could end for me just by a dice roll" (which is, don't get me wrong, a great challenge to take up, and brings fun to the game !) ... So, I really want to see how you will make this even more exciting.

PS : Sorry for my mistakes : I'm not English at all, a little sick and very tired when tiping this message, so I probably killed Shakespeare ten times in this message :x.
 
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That's only because of Aquitaine, though, as it turns France into an easily broken personal union. Most other kingdoms don't have that issue.

Then maybe they could FINALLY fix France so it's not the HRE's floormop anymore. That would go a long way to keeping the HRE in line.

Unless the devs have something against keeping Empires from blobbing, that is... ;)
 
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