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* CKII: Charlemagne Developer Diaries will be released weekly on Wednesdays from now on up to release! *

Welcome to the Charlemagne dev diaries - and above all, welcome to the 8th century!

I'm Tobias Bodlund, scripter on the Crusader Kings II team, and in this first installment of the dev diaries for CKII: Charlemagne I will be talking about the new 769 start date and how we've chosen to represent that historical period in the game.

We've added a bunch of new cultures to the game. A few of these could arguably have been present in The Old Gods already, but going back to 769 we felt we really needed to shake up the map to properly represent the changing cultural landscape of the Early Middle Ages.

sw_eur_cult.png

In Spain we have the Visigoths, and they are in the Iberian rather than the Germanic group, since the Gothic migrations are long since over and they have been living in the peninsula since the early 6th century. With time, Visigothic provinces are likely to eventually become Castilian, Catalan or Andalusian depending on location and which other religious and cultural influences they are subjected to. In northwestern Iberia we also still have the Suebi, an old Germanic people. They have their own culture shift events which may see the rise of Portuguese culture.

Looking north, we have the Franks. They are still Germanic but becoming more and more latinized. You will see them slowly turning into something we call "French"...

Other new cultures you will find are Saxons, Lombards, Picts and Somali. Also, there are no Russians yet, but instead various East Slavic peoples such as the Ilmenians, Severians and Volhynians.

We've revisited cultural dynamics in some other places as well. For example, the emergence of Norman culture is now somewhat more likely than before.

Regarding religion, the old Norse religion in the game is now referred to as Germanic. We decided to do this because with the earlier start date this religion exists well beyond Norse lands (specifically, the Saxons), and the old name also sometimes caused players to confuse it with Norse culture.

Moving further south, the Ibadi faith is now its own religion and no longer a Sunni heresy.

We've also added a new pagan religion, available only in the Charlemagne start. They are the followers of the sun-god Zun, which was historically the Zunbil dynasty in Afghanistan. They start out surrounded by Muslims and Buddhists, and this should provide an interesting and possibly quite difficult start, comparable to the Jewish starts.

And where are the Jews in 769, you ask now - you will find them in Semien in Ethiopia (sometimes referred to as Beta Israel).

religion_map_persia.png

Oh, speaking of the Norse, yes... with the new start date the Viking Age hasn't begun yet. This means that the Norse will initially not be able to launch Viking expeditions overseas. This will change the early game for them as they'll need to focus more on local affairs initially. Don't worry, though, a few decades in things will start happening for them and the continent will properly learn to fear the wrath of the Northmen.

Finally, let's look at some of the large empires in the 8th century:

In 769, the Byzantine Empire is embroiled in what historians call the "First Iconoclasm". This basically means that the emperor and patriarch (and most of the elite) follow the Iconoclast faith, where religious icons are condemned as idolatry much like in Islam. There is a choice for the emperor to either stick with Iconoclasm or renounce it (via a special decision).

Meanwhile, the Abbasids are the great blob of the 8th century. During this time, they historically ruled an area from the Indus in the east to the Maghreb in the west. Though "rule" is perhaps a misleading word in some cases. To reflect the fact that in reality they had limited control over many of their nominal vassals, we have made some of these areas independent in the game. But the Caliph still has plenty of de jure CBs and claims on those areas, so beware...

In Spain, Umayyad rule is fairly recently established, so you have an Arab Muslim dynasty ruling over mainly Visigothic Christian subjects.

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Then there is the Frankish Empire. After Pepin died, his sons Charlemagne and Carloman inherited a kind of joint kingship over the Franks, with each of them ruling directly over a portion of the kingdom. In the game, this means the two brothers each have a king title but also a claim on the other's title. With powerful neighbors such as the Lombards, the Umayyads and the pagan Saxons, things may get very interesting here.

As you can see, the world in 769 is quite different from later starts, with many period-defining events still to unfold. Things such as the Holy Roman Empire (yes, you can found it), Vikings, Normans and Russians are still unheard of. There aren't even that many Karlings yet (!).

The 8th century is a strange and wonderful place. We hope that you'll enjoy it.
 
It looks very good but... provinces with Suebi and Visgothic culture are just not right. Elite classes and some places like Septimania, ok, but not the whole Peninsula. This should be rethought or it will become modding fodder.
 
and for asking imperial missionary would be most funny to have option, for pagan rulers, to ask every Emperor for converting mission.
to have Muslim duchies in Scandinavia, Norse principalties in west equatorial Afrika, zoroastrian kingdom of Bohemia... jewish realm of Sri Lanka...
 
There never was ONE Christianity, in it's early stages Christianity had a lot of local variations, all claiming to be the right and only way of worshiping Christ. All of the Ecumenical Councils were called to deal with the different ways of worshiping and were mostly ineffectual. As someone else mentioned, by 726 there was direct competition between the Pope in Rome and the Patriarchs in the east. In effect, the split was already well on its way and the way it's done in game is a better reflection of the historical situation than one united Christianity. Besides, it also makes for a better game play.

Well, actually if you play as an orthodox ruler and mend the schism (but is possible anyway, I think) all the orthodox christianity is divided in patriarchates. So If you are an orthodox of, let's say, France your spiritual leader is the patriarch of Rome. I don't know if this is a unique feature of SOA but it pretty much resembles the mechanic of the earlier christianity: there was one patriarch in the east and one in the west. So the mechanic is already in the game. It just need some depth, changing the name of the faith from orthodox to something else, and maybe some mechanic that increase the indipendency of the west church till the great schism.
I don't know, it seems very doable for me.
 
It looks very good but... provinces with Suebi and Visgothic culture are just not right. Elite classes and some places like Septimania, ok, but not the whole Peninsula. This should be rethought or it will become modding fodder.

Visigoths are Romance iberians...

Well, actually if you play as an orthodox ruler and mend the schism (but is possible anyway, I think) all the orthodox christianity is divided in patriarchates. So If you are an orthodox of, let's say, France your spiritual leader is the patriarch of Rome. I don't know if this is a unique feature of SOA but it pretty much resembles the mechanic of the earlier christianity: there was one patriarch in the east and one in the west. So the mechanic is already in the game. It just need some depth, changing the name of the faith from orthodox to something else, and maybe some mechanic that increase the indipendency of the west church till the great schism.
I don't know, it seems very achievable for me.

No. Even then the pope was more independent.-..
 
Nice setup, but I'd like to say that most of the Levant and Mesopotamia should be Christian at that time. I think I read that Assyrian culture and language (and presumably their Nestorianism, too) were in a golden age until the time of the Mongol sack of Baghdad.
 
africa was conquered not more than 100 years previously before this date. Will there be any splooches of african pagans or christian heretics remaining in africa? I know there were some minorities(christians) remaining up to the temporary conquest of tunis by sicily. So surely there must be some regions still dominantly christian or pagan? Also shouldn't there be a roman-berber sort of group there too? to represent the romanized berbers? Though I am no expert, I am just wondering? I am sure someone knows the history of the area very well.
 
Nice setup, but I'd like to say that most of the Levant and Mesopotamia should be Christian at that time. I think I read that Assyrian culture and language (and presumably their Nestorianism, too) were in a golden age until the time of the Mongol sack of Baghdad.

Nestorianism is a bit weaker than it should be in Northern Mesopotamia, and an Assyrian culture is sorely missing, we can quickly agree on that.
 
Visigothic culture?
What? The visigoths were never a substantial part of the population, but the hispano-roman. Latin and early "hispanic" language were spoken, not a germanic language, mostly unknown and forgot by 769.
 
I would have thought there would have been new mechanics to keep huge blobs in check. Because that's going to be needed if you don't want to see the Franks conquer everything all the time.

I'm pretty sure that's why they added a vasal limit, which might not sound too incredible on paper, but I expect AI will really get ruined by it. They can really only survive if they have tons of vasals with their own religion and their own government type. Thats what I think anyway.
 
A region that revolted like clockwork every time the Emperor tried to say "but you are mine" doesn't look, to me, the shining example of a de-jure territory. It revolted so much that current mechanics have difficulties in represent it (5 revolts in 20 years).

IMHO that really depends on which point in time you are.

Sure every ruler, which also rules another 'Carolingian' realm on the other side of the Alps, so this includes West Francia (Aquitaine), Lotharingia, Burgundy or East Francia (probably not Frisia or Bohemia, which weren't Caolingian, but they can be used as a subsidiary title next to a 'mandatory' Carolingian one), will and ought to have some troubles. Though that probably should work both ways, so a balancing act to keep both sides of the Alps happy.

Still don't downplay the symbolic value the kingdom of Italy had in order to become Holy Roman Emperor. Something, which was still valued in medieval times. So depending on how one looks at it, one could argue that Italy was a de jure part of the HRE, even when de facto things might have looked differently occasionally.
However this still leaves an old issue of the game, an item that predates the 'a-historic' empires, and that's the electoral system. Originally the East Francian (later Lotharingian (with Frisia) and Bohemia also became a part) elected the new king, which could then also become king of Italy and after 1032 also king of Burgundy.
Having those two outside the de jure area solves that, and was something I could live with; in fact IMHO before the extra empires were added, I even thought of it being an elegant solution.
Unless certain de jure kingdoms can stay separate within the same de jure empire; so they can't vote, but they get to keep their own royal laws?
OTOH no HRE can or IMHO should tolerate a vassal king of Italy or Germany, unless the latter would end up with his preferred heir (to represent a 'king of the Romans') to make the HRE de facto hereditary.
So there's more the mechanics can't handle.

At this date, until the coronation of Otto the Great in 962, the HRE should probably be formed by any ruler of Italy and (another) Carolingian realm (at least one), as mandatory required titles.
 
Visigothic culture?
What? The visigoths were never a substantial part of the population, but the hispano-roman. Latin and early "hispanic" language were spoken, not a germanic language, mostly unknown and forgot by 769.

I think this has already been done and dusted by the sounds of it, they already said Visigoths are in the Iberian culture group and that they are going to evolve into the Catalan, Castillan and Andalusian. To be honest I prefer Visigoths otherwise the Visigothic rulers are just going to be filled with courtiers not their culture group and will end up marrying them and becoming them, hence becoming something even more ahistorical.
 
There never was ONE Christianity, in it's early stages Christianity had a lot of local variations, all claiming to be the right and onlyway of worshiping Christ. All of the Ecumenical Councils were called to deal with the different ways of worshiping and were mostly ineffectual. As someone else mentioned, by 726 there was direct competition between the Pope in Rome and the Patriarchs in the east. In effect, the split was already well on its way and the way it's done in game is a better reflection of the historical situation than one united Christianity. Besides, it also makes for a better game play.

You people keep pushing the date of the "split" farther and farther back. I remember when you just dubious on 867. This is ridiculous.

THE GREAT SCHISM HAPENED WHEN JEEZUS DIED ON DA CROSS GAIZ I SWEAR
 
africa was conquered not more than 100 years previously before this date. Will there be any splooches of african pagans or christian heretics remaining in africa? I know there were some minorities(christians) remaining up to the temporary conquest of tunis by sicily. So surely there must be some regions still dominantly christian or pagan? Also shouldn't there be a roman-berber sort of group there too? to represent the romanized berbers? Though I am no expert, I am just wondering? I am sure someone knows the history of the area very well.

Yes to all your point. But probably won't be represented in game. If paradox didn't bother to include maghrebi arabic as a distinct culture. One wich that important in the middle age and is the prevalent culture in modern maghreb I don't see them making a african roman culture or christian provinces anytime soon. (btw berber tunisia is fascinating to say the least).

At best we can hope to some more "western pagan" provinces.
 
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I think this has already been done and dusted by the sounds of it, they already said Visigoths are in the Iberian culture group and that they are going to evolve into the Catalan, Castillan and Andalusian. To be honest I prefer Visigoths otherwise the Visigothic rulers are just going to be filled with courtiers not their culture group and will end up marrying them and becoming them, hence becoming something even more ahistorical.
But they made up a culture which didn't exist. The population was hispano-roman, they could have used that name
 
Visigothic culture?
What? The visigoths were never a substantial part of the population, but the hispano-roman. Latin and early "hispanic" language were spoken, not a germanic language, mostly unknown and forgot by 769.

Read the DD again. Visigoths are romkance Iberians.