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* CKII: Charlemagne Developer Diaries will be released weekly on Wednesdays from now on up to release! *

Welcome to the Charlemagne dev diaries - and above all, welcome to the 8th century!

I'm Tobias Bodlund, scripter on the Crusader Kings II team, and in this first installment of the dev diaries for CKII: Charlemagne I will be talking about the new 769 start date and how we've chosen to represent that historical period in the game.

We've added a bunch of new cultures to the game. A few of these could arguably have been present in The Old Gods already, but going back to 769 we felt we really needed to shake up the map to properly represent the changing cultural landscape of the Early Middle Ages.

sw_eur_cult.png

In Spain we have the Visigoths, and they are in the Iberian rather than the Germanic group, since the Gothic migrations are long since over and they have been living in the peninsula since the early 6th century. With time, Visigothic provinces are likely to eventually become Castilian, Catalan or Andalusian depending on location and which other religious and cultural influences they are subjected to. In northwestern Iberia we also still have the Suebi, an old Germanic people. They have their own culture shift events which may see the rise of Portuguese culture.

Looking north, we have the Franks. They are still Germanic but becoming more and more latinized. You will see them slowly turning into something we call "French"...

Other new cultures you will find are Saxons, Lombards, Picts and Somali. Also, there are no Russians yet, but instead various East Slavic peoples such as the Ilmenians, Severians and Volhynians.

We've revisited cultural dynamics in some other places as well. For example, the emergence of Norman culture is now somewhat more likely than before.

Regarding religion, the old Norse religion in the game is now referred to as Germanic. We decided to do this because with the earlier start date this religion exists well beyond Norse lands (specifically, the Saxons), and the old name also sometimes caused players to confuse it with Norse culture.

Moving further south, the Ibadi faith is now its own religion and no longer a Sunni heresy.

We've also added a new pagan religion, available only in the Charlemagne start. They are the followers of the sun-god Zun, which was historically the Zunbil dynasty in Afghanistan. They start out surrounded by Muslims and Buddhists, and this should provide an interesting and possibly quite difficult start, comparable to the Jewish starts.

And where are the Jews in 769, you ask now - you will find them in Semien in Ethiopia (sometimes referred to as Beta Israel).

religion_map_persia.png

Oh, speaking of the Norse, yes... with the new start date the Viking Age hasn't begun yet. This means that the Norse will initially not be able to launch Viking expeditions overseas. This will change the early game for them as they'll need to focus more on local affairs initially. Don't worry, though, a few decades in things will start happening for them and the continent will properly learn to fear the wrath of the Northmen.

Finally, let's look at some of the large empires in the 8th century:

In 769, the Byzantine Empire is embroiled in what historians call the "First Iconoclasm". This basically means that the emperor and patriarch (and most of the elite) follow the Iconoclast faith, where religious icons are condemned as idolatry much like in Islam. There is a choice for the emperor to either stick with Iconoclasm or renounce it (via a special decision).

Meanwhile, the Abbasids are the great blob of the 8th century. During this time, they historically ruled an area from the Indus in the east to the Maghreb in the west. Though "rule" is perhaps a misleading word in some cases. To reflect the fact that in reality they had limited control over many of their nominal vassals, we have made some of these areas independent in the game. But the Caliph still has plenty of de jure CBs and claims on those areas, so beware...

In Spain, Umayyad rule is fairly recently established, so you have an Arab Muslim dynasty ruling over mainly Visigothic Christian subjects.

europe_map.png

Then there is the Frankish Empire. After Pepin died, his sons Charlemagne and Carloman inherited a kind of joint kingship over the Franks, with each of them ruling directly over a portion of the kingdom. In the game, this means the two brothers each have a king title but also a claim on the other's title. With powerful neighbors such as the Lombards, the Umayyads and the pagan Saxons, things may get very interesting here.

As you can see, the world in 769 is quite different from later starts, with many period-defining events still to unfold. Things such as the Holy Roman Empire (yes, you can found it), Vikings, Normans and Russians are still unheard of. There aren't even that many Karlings yet (!).

The 8th century is a strange and wonderful place. We hope that you'll enjoy it.
 
Though it should be noted an official "Great Schism" event wouldn't hurt, as well as events detailing periods of bad relations and rapprochement prior to the schism
I agree, and I've been a huge champion of the Chalcedonian Christianity and Schism arguments, but it's probably never going to happen. I reject the argument that the strain was already in place - the West and East frequently got involved in each other's affairs in matters of the Christian faith. The Second Council of Nicaea, for instance, was a Christendom-wide affair. The Empress asked the Pope for it - this doesn't reflect the "de facto reality on the ground" that the anti-Chalcedonianites here seem to argue.

Unfortunately, it's mod fare in the future. It will likely never be implemented. One could hope that an entire future mod could be devoted solely to it and how the other Christian groups interact with each-other as well. It could potentially be implemented along the lines of what you describe; similar to how reform works in EU4, a series of events, both for the Emperor and for western Christian rulers (and the Pope, though since he's NPC it would be largely random decisions on those events, making no one play-through the same) either increasing East/West tensions or soothing them.
 
I get people's complaints that Suebi weren't Germanic by that time but hey, at least now you can reconquer Germany with an original Germanic tribe. So I say leave them Germanic, because I'd like more control over how my culture develops tbh.

Although one thing I would like to know: Will there be a Gaulish culture? There is nothing I'd like more than to play a game where Gaul is once more Gaulish, rather than Frankish. We know more about them than Picts so it shouldn't be that difficult. Is there also going to be a Celtic pagan religion? I'm assuming so since the Picts were never Christianised.
 
I get people's complaints that Suebi weren't Germanic by that time but hey, at least now you can reconquer Germany with an original Germanic tribe. So I say leave them Germanic, because I'd like more control over how my culture develops tbh.

Although one thing I would like to know: Will there be a Gaulish culture? There is nothing I'd like more than to play a game where Gaul is once more Gaulish, rather than Frankish. We know more about them than Picts so it shouldn't be that difficult. Is there also going to be a Celtic pagan religion? I'm assuming so since the Picts were never Christianised.

Reconquere Germany with Germanic tribes? You know that Germany was still ruled by Germanic tribes?

And the picts were Christianised...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts#Religion
 
Although one thing I would like to know: Will there be a Gaulish culture? There is nothing I'd like more than to play a game where Gaul is once more Gaulish, rather than Frankish. We know more about them than Picts so it shouldn't be that difficult. Is there also going to be a Celtic pagan religion? I'm assuming so since the Picts were never Christianised.
Right now there is no Gaul culture, it is entirely Frankish. It'd be cool if there was a Gallo-Roman culture (it'd have to be Latin culture group, not Celtic) which would become French if ruled over by a Frankish person, though.
 
I'm referring to the period of 769-1453, not today. Their spoken similarities would have been greater in the past.
Yes, they were really similar. A couple of castillian kings spoke all of them without much trouble.
 
Swébôz! Swébôz! Swébôz! Mighty German warriors! Stronk of Germania!
 
Though it should be noted an official "Great Schism" event wouldn't hurt, as well as events detailing periods of bad relations and rapprochement prior to the schism

Oh sure. If the Pope and Patriarch get to bad enough relations, (or the "raise relations" action with the councillor fails enough), an event "The Pope and Patriarch have excommunicated each other! Now the schism is entrenched and looks impossible to heal." wouldn't hurt.
 
In the Middle Ages Portuguese and Galician was the same thing. They shouldn't be seperated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician-Portuguese

I like the flavour of k_Galicia, but otherwise I'm not a fan of Spain being full of 1-duchy kingdoms with 2 counties (Galicia), 3 (Navarra), 4 (Castille) and 5 (Leon/Asturias, okay this one has 2 duchies) whereas 'petty kings' in Celtic realms, Nubia, Abyssinia etc. are on the ducal tier. They are mostly fine when they force the Jimenas to balkanize through gavelkind, but they could also turn into a prestige farm, quicken the formation of custom empires etc. I suppose the current setup is probably the best, anyway, despite its drawbacks.
 
Right now there is no Gaul culture, it is entirely Frankish. It'd be cool if there was a Gallo-Roman culture (it'd have to be Latin culture group, not Celtic) which would become French if ruled over by a Frankish person, though.

Celtic Gaulish and Gallo-Roman cultures are long dead at this point.

The closer you'll get is "occitan" but they too are not really alike their roman ancestor.

Also Gaul is not entirely Frankish. You have Franks in the North Occitan in the South, Visigoth on the mediterranean coast, Basque on the Atlantic Coast and Breton in Armorica.

That's quite the diversity in comparison to other "Latin" regions.
 
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I get people's complaints that Suebi weren't Germanic by that time but hey, at least now you can reconquer Germany with an original Germanic tribe. So I say leave them Germanic, because I'd like more control over how my culture develops tbh.

Although one thing I would like to know: Will there be a Gaulish culture? There is nothing I'd like more than to play a game where Gaul is once more Gaulish, rather than Frankish. We know more about them than Picts so it shouldn't be that difficult. Is there also going to be a Celtic pagan religion? I'm assuming so since the Picts were never Christianised.

The (Celtic) Gallic culture were basically destroyed after the Frankish conquest after all the Romano-Gallics left the cities for the countryside and assimilated them all.

You could make a case for a Gallo-Roman culture, but at this point it was basically early French.

And the Picts were Christianized in the 7th or 8th centuries, by the way, so I assume that they're going to speed up the conversion a little and just make all of Britannia Catholic.
 
Celtic Gaulish and Gallo-Roman cultures are long dead at this point.

The closer you'll get is "occitan" but they too are not really alike their roman ancestor.

Also Gaul is not entirely Frankish. You have Franks in the North Occitan in the South, Visigoth on the mediterranean coast, Basque on the Atlantic Coast and Breton in Armorica.

That's quite the diversity in comparison to other "Latin" regions.
True that the actual gallo-roman culture was dead at this point, but shouldn't most of the region still be some variety of romance-language culture, rather than entirely germanic?
 
True that the actual gallo-roman culture was dead at this point, but shouldn't most of the region still be some variety of romance-language culture, rather than entirely germanic?
This seems to be a cyclical discussion :p
 
True that the actual gallo-roman culture was dead at this point, but shouldn't most of the region still be some variety of romance-language culture, rather than entirely germanic?

Culture and language is different. Vlach are romance speaking people and they always have been in a slavic culture group.

Putting northern gallic population in the frankish germanic culture is not that inacurrate as long as we keep in mind t hat it doesn't mean they speak a germanic language but are Franks culturally speaking wich they were.
 
Culture and language is different. Vlach are romance speaking people and they always have been in a slavic culture group.

Putting northern gallic population in the frankish germanic culture is not that inacurrate as long as we keep in mind t hat it doesn't mean they speak a germanic language but are Franks culturally speaking wich they were.

With the problem that they use Germanic names and not Romance ones... ;)
 
Culture and language is different. Vlach are romance speaking people and they always have been in a slavic culture group.

Putting northern gallic population in the frankish germanic culture is not that inacurrate as long as we keep in mind t hat it doesn't mean they speak a germanic language but are Franks culturally speaking wich they were.
A Frank had more in common with a nowdays french than with a nowdays german...
 
With the problem that they use Germanic names and not Romance ones... ;)

What ? Charles, Louis, Henri, Lothar, Guillaume ? Don't really sounds roman to me. :p

And that's really not a big problem as I don't even know how the names would sound in the romances dialects of Francia.

The West Franks definetly did not spoke gallo-roman vulgar latin and have yet to speak "Old French". So really the germanic names are as accurate as the romance ones. :p

The best compromise would have been to use the latin version of the names as I suggested but it will probably not happen. :D

So maybe have some romance names in the Frankish list ? would not be a big stretch but then again it's not really a big problem.

A Frank had more in common with a nowdays french than with a nowdays german...

Tell this to Ruuward. I am sure he will apreciate this. ;)

But I agree with you. :p
 
What ? Charles, Louis, Henri, Lothar, Guillaume ? Don't really sounds roman to me. :p

And that's really not a big problem as I don't even know how the names would sound in the romances dialects of Francia.

The West Franks definetly did not spoke gallo-roman vulgar latin and have yet to speak "Old French". So really the germanic names are as accurate as the romance ones. :p

The best compromise would have been to use the latin version of the names as I suggested but it will probably not happen. :D

So maybe have some romance names in the Frankish list ? would not be a big stretch but then again it's not really a big problem.

No. Me problem is... The Franks use Germanic name forms. Karl for exemple. Hrodgar. Hlodwig. The Romance people in France shouldn't use this clearly germanic forms ;)
 
No. Me problem is... The Franks use Germanic name forms. Karl for exemple. Hrodgar. Hlodwig. The Romance people in France shouldn't use this clearly germanic forms ;)

They should not but they will and frankly (haha) this is a lower priority for me that the thing those romance franks will eventually become in the game... ;) .
 
They should not but they will and frankly (haha) this is a lower priority for me that the thing those romance franks will eventually become in the game... ;) .

But mostly this people don't even were Franks... The Franks never replaced the population in modern France.
 
But mostly this people don't even were Franks... The Franks never replaced the population in modern France.
They were never numerous, but they were an important minority in nowdays Belgium/Nord-pas de Calais