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War, what is it good for?

In Crusader Kings II, hopefully you'll gain some titles and in the best of worlds, imprison or behead your enemy. In order to declare a war you'll first need a valid Casus Belli against your enemy(a CB held by a vassal or courtier will of course do as well). You cannot attack the vassals of someone, so if you want one of their titles you have to attack their liege. Also, unlike Europa Universalis III and Victoria II, once a war has started it cannot be extended by adding further wargoals or CBs.

Instead, each CB has three options scripted: Demand Defeat, White Peace and Reversed Demands. As an example, let's look at the Claim CB. This CB lets you attack people holding titles you have claims on. If the war is going well, you can demand that your enemy give his title to you and as a bonus you'll gain a small amount of prestige. If you fail to achieve your goal, you could sue for a white peace instead. You'd want to avoid this though, since signing a white peace gives you a prestige hit(you didn't achieve your goals, after all). White peace is still preferable to the reversed demand however, since if your enemy enforces this, you will both lose the claim and get a huge prestige hit.

CrusaderKingsII_War_2.png

While most wars will end in a peace treaty, this is not the only way they can end. Some CBs have effects that trigger when the leader of an alliance dies. An example of this is the Invasion CB, which is currently used by William against Harold. When the leader of the attacking alliance dies, the war immediately ends. Be careful when going to war with your old king...

Another part of wars is the warscore. Like our other games, you'll gain warscore by occupying enemy holdings(the capital is worth more, vassal holdings are worth less) and winning battles(in CK2, they are worth a lot of warscore). We've also added a warscore effect if the contested title is left with no controller change for some time. After three years(currently), warscore is slowly added to the person controlling the area. This means that it's now possible to win a war as a) a defender in a war by just defending your title or b) attacking someone, sieging down the title you want and then just stand still and defend those provinces. By the way, if you manage to capture and imprison the enemy leader(for example, in a battle), this automatically counts as 100% warscore. We've also removed all limits to warscore, so whoever reaches >=100% first by any combination of occupation, battles, controlling the correct territory and imprisonment automatically wins the war.

CrusaderKingsII_War_1.png

Last but not least we have tagged some CBs to be "hostile against others", for example the Invasion CB. The effect of this is that two parties contesting the same title will fight each other even if they are not at war. It might be better as William to wait a bit until Harald and Harold both have worn down their armies...

'Till next time!
Fredrik Zetterman
Programmer, Paradox Interactive
 
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What about low-level fighting between say a French count and a German count? As has been asked here, should the Count of Charolais have to take on the whole HRE to stake his claim on Macon, and hope that the Duke of Burgundy and the King of France will back him up?

No, only independant rulers or vassals within the same realm can declare war on each other.
 
No, only independant rulers or vassals within the same realm can declare war on each other.

Will attacking a vassal in the same realm always automatically result in the king defending said other vassal, and using all of his vassals armies to do so, giving the attacker absolutely zero chance of ever winning?


And can a vassal go to war with an independent ruler? For instance, if I as the Duke of Lancaster fancy a slice of Wales, can I attack the Duke of Gwynned? If so, would I then get an option to call in my liege or would he join automatically? And if the king does join in, is he going to instantly annex Gwynned for himself the moment I occupy it like they did in CK1, or will he do the decent thing this time and let me annex it?
 
Is Åland part of Sweden in that picture? Just asking as if it was then it would have mainly finnish population as the swedish people who lived there abandoned the island near 1000 AD. After they left finnish people repopulated the island. Swedish people came back to the island after Sweden conquered the whole Finland around early to mid 13th century and in that time period Åland was mainly finnish in population. I was suprised to see it included as part of sweden but as it had swedish people living on it about 100 years earlier it might have been considered to be part of it. Still don't think the finnish people on the island saw themselves to be under swedish rule.
 
If as a vassal i can't start a war, can I ask my liege to support my claim?

If not, I think it would be quite boring to play a vassal who can only rebel, attack his fellow vassal or help his liege in war he don't care.
 
If as a vassal i can't start a war, can I ask my liege to support my claim?
The answer is right there:
In Crusader Kings II, hopefully you'll gain some titles and in the best of worlds, imprison or behead your enemy. In order to declare a war you'll first need a valid Casus Belli against your enemy(a CB held by a vassal or courtier will of course do as well).
I reckon if you can do it AI can do it too.
I think the real questions are:
Will the AI do it?
And can we ask the AI to do it ASAP as a diplomatic option? Or do we have to wait until the liege decides it's the right time for our war?

It probably could be an event too, but I'd like to have more control over this matter.
 
My question is more if I can ask for war or if I must wait my liege decide its time.
 
I think the real questions are:
Will the AI do it?
And can we ask the AI to do it ASAP as a diplomatic option? Or do we have to wait until the liege decides it's the right time for our war?

It probably could be an event too, but I'd like to have more control over this matter.

The most annoying occurence in CK/DV was not the odd vassal declaring war on some vast/distant empire.

No. It was the liege settling for 8 gold when your siege was 75%+ complete and the fall of the enemy's castle was a certainty measured in days.

As i said earlier, the new war mechanics sound good. But if there is worrying about the AI-liege to be done, i'm hoping that aspect of CK1 can be left in the past.
:)


But an asking option, even with the possibility of the liege´s refusal, would be important gamewise.

This too. i would like to be able to lodge some complaints and requests... but on the other hand you don't want the whole thing to turn into Fosterling spam... (i.e. "no, my court is full and i don't want your kids clogging up my already full courtier screen. stop asking!")
 
Don't forget that you are the vassal and he is your liege. You ask or not, he still does what he thinks is best for him and when it's best for him.

In legal theory, yes.

In practice that's just not how it happened. The King of France was not involved in the Norman Conquest. Just about every border lord fought at least one war with a neighbor on the other side of the border without asking their Kings for permission.

Moreover, how do you know the gameplay elements you're pontificating about so knowingly? You don't have the dev team avatar, and betas aren't supposed to be talking.

Liege has control over vassal and not the other way around.

You're misunderstanding the question. He's not asking who decides whether to go to war. He's asking whether you can ask your liege whether to go to war.

To use an analogy: My boss is in charge of me while I'm at work. She decides when I go on break. I can ask her for an earlier break, or a later break, or extra breaks, but she's still in charge.

The liege is in charge of whether you can press claims. He decides whether you can go to war to press the claim. The question is whether you can ask him to press the claim.

Nick
 
It would have been nice if we could ask our liege to let us press a claim on our own without involving the rest of the realm, though...

(but the new system is still much better than that of CK1)
 
It was a pain in the ass fighting in the crusades when you were a Duke in CK. Your liege would constantly make white peace when you've nearly conquered them over and over again.

that happens in all the games though, and as it happens in V2 then unless it doesnt happen in sengoku we should expect it to happen in CK2 too. as the AI only thinks with numbers and doesnt understand that it should be stubborn and prideful so it white peaces at the first chance. and probably always will
 
From the screenshots it appears that Normandy is an independent duchy, not part of France.
 
I'd prefer if the liege would be given a choice to intervene or not. If you don't defend your vassal you get pegged with a huge prestige hit and a relations decrease with other vassals. Sometimes I just want to be lazy and let my weak vassals fend for themselves or I'm not in a position to fight a war.

As for the AI, since Dukes and Counts will have to, generally, declare war on a King to expand, even if they just want another poor count's territory, then it seems like that would just promote blobbing.
 
I'd prefer if the liege would be given a choice to intervene or not.

I'm not understanding the posts like this. If you go to war against the Duke of Kent in order to take Kent for yourself, how is that not a declaration of war against England, for example? You're landing on England for the purpose of annexing English lands to your control. How is that not a direct invitation to war on the King of England anyway?

If you don't want to get involved then don't. Just don't raise your levies and let Duke Kent fight the war on his own.
 
From the screenshots it appears that Normandy is an independent duchy, not part of France.

According to the Devs there won't ever truly be an independent Duchy.

In some ways that makes a lot of sense. If a King of Norway tried to poach a nominally-independent Normandy from France a strong King of France would have intervened and nobody would have thought he was acting inappropriately. So the mandatory relationship with liege is an improvement over CK1, where rebellious vassals had an annoying tendency to be gobbled up by your neighbors and there was nothing you could do about it.

But it's a huge problem if the mandatory vassal-liege relationship goes any further then that.

But since vassal-liege relations are not a sexy dev diary we'll have to wait to see the actual game before we know whether Paradox got the balance right.

Nick