Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you). For today's diary, I thought that we might immerse ourselves in medieval jurisprudence. In practice, the laws function in much the same way as in Rome: Vae Victis, but in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws. Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)

Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Speaking of succession laws, they are slightly different from the ones in Crusader Kings. In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.) These are the succession laws of CKII:

• Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
• Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
• Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
• Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
• Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
• Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
• Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

That's all for now. The game is still a very long way from being finished, but I can at least offer you this screenshot of the current Law interface (though bear in mind that it is still very much subject to change.) In the screenshot, the king stands to inherit the duchy, because the young duke has no legal heir. "Pretenders" are the second and third characters in the line of succession.





Until next time, I bid you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[Boris ze Spider]

Awesome.

 

[Dagda]

Actually I'm still on book 1 so...... "Winter Is Coming"

I wish I was you. The last five years have been brutal.

 

[performer]

I'm really sad that Drachenfire has disappeared ... he was very active in the CK community and has created great mods.

But great improvements - even if I wish more flexible / moddable inheritance laws.

 

[Jia Xu]

Well, no... I think the risk makes it more interesting. It's not necessarily game over, however; you will still keep your other titles. (I.e, your other titles will default to Primogeniture if another dynasty wins the election.)

That makes sense, but don't think left as it is, elective is just going to be a succesion law that almost all players will go out of their way to avoid? If possible, please add in a "Dynastic Elective" type too which allows Dukes to elect their King from the members of the ruling dynasty. Thank you.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Well, if you ask nicely, and you can think of any widespread, missing succession laws we can always ask the devs if they can code it.

The Russian rotating princedoms appear to be the difficult one so far though...

But just to confirm we have:
1) Inheritance by the eldest living male member of the dynasty
2) Inheritance by the eldest living male child of the title holder
3) Divide the titles between all male children of the title holder
4) Turkish - I'm not sure, but I'm guessing nominate a (male) successor, but you risk other possible heirs rebelling?
5) Republican (elected) succession
6) Bishoprics (by definition male only?)
7) Elective - could you try to nominate a female to hold the title?
8) In the absence of any remaining males in the dynasty, the eldest female of the dynasty succeeds?
9) In the absence of any male children, the eldest daughter inherits
10) In the absence of any male children, divide the land between all daughters
11) If my guess with Turkish is correct, then could you nominate a female heir?


What happens with gavelkind if there are no sons (assuming agnatic descent)?
Would it pass as a single parcel to the next nearest male relative, as one would expect with option 2 above?

Also, another thought - if you have an absolute agnatic descent, what happens if you run out of male members of the dynasty? Will we get the "country cousin" from CK I, or will the title simply cease, with all land reverting to the next highest lord, with the title of King just becoming vacant until someone can get enough land to recreate it?

 

[DukeWilleo1630]

I'm really sad that Drachenfire has disappeared ... he was very active in the CK community and has created great mods.

But great improvements - even if I wish more flexible / moddable inheritance laws.

Yes well what can you say when someone goes coo coo for coacoa puffs over a slight difference in an inheretence law. Or was he going crazy that is was named differently? I mean, I can understand getting upset about inheretence laws to a degree, but seemed a little over the top for the difference between salic and semi-salic. I don't think I've ever played a ck1 game where I didn't have a male son anyways.

 

[Doomdark]

Yes well what can you say when someone goes coo coo for coacoa puffs over a slight difference in an inheretence law. Or was he going crazy that is was named differently? I mean, I can understand getting upset about inheretence laws to a degree, but seemed a little over the top for the difference between salic and semi-salic. I don't think I've ever played a ck1 game where I didn't have a male son anyways.

Even worse, we are still more than a year from release and none of the laws are really nailed down. Adding more succession laws and options is a distinct possibility.

 

[Innocent Beard]

Does "Turkish" means the most powerful son would seize the throne?

And about "children of female rulers belong to their mothers dynasty instead of their fathers", what if the father is a 4th or 5th son of a duke and is landless and the mother is a count? Which family would those childrens be in?

If they belong to their mother's dynasty, what would hapen if their uncles(heirs to the duchy) all died without an heir and leaving their father as the heir? Would one kid "switch" to father's dynasty, be disqualified to inherit the duchy or they can while being in mother's dynasty(which leads to game over even with a bunch of male heirs)?

Only a Crusader Kings player can come with with that complex an example. But I guess the question stands.

The way I understand it, if somehow my daughter inherits, she becomes Queen. Then to make the game not end, the game assigns the Queens dynasty name to her children, effectively carrying my Dynasties name through a female portal. But what would happen if:

If I'm Queen of Ireland (an O'Brien) and I'm married to the King of England (a Godwinson).
Now if we have children, will they be O'Briens or Godwinsons. Will this depend on who is AI & who is human? What if its both are humans in MP.

Basically in a case where a Queen and King of different dynasties and kingdoms marry each other, whose dynasty would end? The Queens or the Kings? Essentially who would get the game over screen (assuming no other people of either dynasty hold any titles anywhere).

 

[unmerged(9481)]

Even worse, we are still more than a year from release and none of the laws are really nailed down. Adding more succession laws and options is a distinct possibility.

Nice!

...I am still holding my breath (and my thumbs) for a grand announcement from Doomdark that CKII will include family trees!

(For CKI, I have had to use a separate genealogical programme like Legacy and type in all characters, titles, marriages, children, ancestors of in-laws etc by hand. Game takes forever to play, but the extra effort is brilliant for an overview of the dynasty)

 

[Innocent Beard]

Nice!

...I am still holding my breath (and my thumbs) for a grand announcement from Doomdark that CKII will include family trees!

(For CKI, I have had to use a separate genealogical programme like Legacy and type in all characters, titles, marriages, children, ancestors of in-laws etc by hand. Game takes forever to play, but the extra effort is brilliant for an overview of the dynasty)

I cant decide if this is brilliance or insanity.

PS: +1 to a family tree. It would be the my most requested addition.

 

[Woody Man]

Even worse, we are still more than a year from release and none of the laws are really nailed down. Adding more succession laws and options is a distinct possibility.

I'd love to see more stuff simply for variety's sake!

 

[Ezzezze]

The way I understand it, if somehow my daughter inherits, she becomes Queen. Then to make the game not end, the game assigns the Queens dynasty name to her children, effectively carrying my Dynasties name through a female portal. But what would happen if:

If I'm Queen of Ireland (an O'Brien) and I'm married to the King of England (a Godwinson).
Now if we have children, will they be O'Briens or Godwinsons. Will this depend on who is AI & who is human? What if its both are humans in MP.

Basically in a case where a Queen and King of different dynasties and kingdoms marry each other, whose dynasty would end? The Queens or the Kings? Essentially who would get the game over screen (assuming no other people of either dynasty hold any titles anywhere).

I would envision the following options.

The offspring would be of the same dynasty of the father in case of both parents sharing the same title tier.
The child would get the dynasty name of the royal parent with more prestige.

If it means game over can we get an option for the game to autosave before kicking us out as losers? It would be interesting to be able to continue the game from that point by loading the save.

 

[unmerged(9481)]

I cant decide if this is brilliance or insanity.QUOTE]

I consider myself brilliantly insane!
:rofl:

 

[TempestDK]

I cant decide if this is brilliance or insanity.QUOTE]

I consider myself brilliantly insane!
:rofl:

You COULD have tried this instead ... might have made your job a bit easier.

 

[Captain Frakas]

Even worse, we are still more than a year from release and none of the laws are really nailed down. Adding more succession laws and options is a distinct possibility.

Women succession law seemed to be a long obsession of Drachenfire. He was affected by the false idea that succession law where similar to CK1. It's only a game and he certainly overreacted but we all have our moment where we fail to act/think intelligently/rationally/coolly. I hope he would come back when he learn that women could now inherit under cognatic succession law.

(and I hope others succession laws )

 

[performer]

I really hope Drachenfire keeps on reading this thread,so he can rethink this decision ...

I would also like some kind of "rogue inheritance", like the bad uncle who steals the crown ...

Anyway: please make inheritance laws as flexible as you could.

And what's up with church inheritance (bishops)?

 

[unmerged(9481)]

You COULD have tried this instead ... might have made your job a bit easier.

I'm too much of a novice to mod my games... That's why I pray that Doomdark and his fellow developers will include family trees in CKII.

 

[Doomdark]

And what's up with church inheritance (bishops)?

I'm saving that for a future dev diary.

 

[TempestDK]

I'm too much of a novice to mod my games... That's why I pray that Doomdark and his fellow developers will include family trees in CKII.

It is not a mod of CK ... they are external programs. The "mod" is used to convert your save game file to something the GenoPro (the family tree program) can read. Been a while since I used it, but it was very handy and not too difficult to use. Much easier than sitting and doing it by hand ... and you get the portraits included too in your family tree

 

[Nick B II]

Any possibility of tanistry? That was the only inheritance system in Ireland in 1066.

That's basically elective law with three caveats: first ony male members of the dynasty are eligible for election, only male members of the ruling dynasty vote, and second the election happens before the King dies. The winner is Crown Prince.

The above should be fairly simple to code, and it's virtually identical to RL Tanistry. The only difference is that IRL you have to be a son, grandson, or great-grand-son of a previous ruler to vote or be elected.

Nick