Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you). For today's diary, I thought that we might immerse ourselves in medieval jurisprudence. In practice, the laws function in much the same way as in Rome: Vae Victis, but in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws. Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)

Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Speaking of succession laws, they are slightly different from the ones in Crusader Kings. In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.) These are the succession laws of CKII:

• Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
• Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
• Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
• Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
• Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
• Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
• Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

That's all for now. The game is still a very long way from being finished, but I can at least offer you this screenshot of the current Law interface (though bear in mind that it is still very much subject to change.) In the screenshot, the king stands to inherit the duchy, because the young duke has no legal heir. "Pretenders" are the second and third characters in the line of succession.





Until next time, I bid you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[Nick B II]

Yes, Doomdark has already said it is a nightmare to make this, so it won't be done. But since the system is desirable, I would imagine it might come in an XP if CKII is successful.

I don't understand your question though because I don't know what you mean by "blobbing" ...

He means all the Russian Prince-titles would inevitably end up belonging to one guy.

"Blobbing" makes more sense in reference to othet Paradox games with no desmene limit. In those games an expansionist country will quickly stop looking like Spain and start looking like a gigantic yellow blob.

Nick

 

[crusadertsar]

WOW! I go on a sabbatical from the Paradox forums for six months... and check back today to get this pleasant surprise?! Bravo Paradox! Crusader Kings II is exactly what I wanted for the last 6 years. Bravo!

 

[The Kingmaker]

He means all the Russian Prince-titles would inevitably end up belonging to one guy.

"Blobbing" makes more sense in reference to othet Paradox games with no desmene limit. In those games an expansionist country will quickly stop looking like Spain and start looking like a gigantic yellow blob.

Yes, exactly. If we're using the seniority system to simulate the rota, once all the other Kievan princes die, the last brother/son/nephew left standing will have inherited all the others' titles and will be a giant Rus' blob. So I'm trying to think of an effective way to use the inheritance systems we've been given by the devs to better simulate the Kievan Rus' inheritance system.

 

[Drakken]

He means all the Russian Prince-titles would inevitably end up belonging to one guy.

Nick

Hence why they routinely killed each other in brutal internescine wars, to gain the elder brother's lands or eliminate pretenders.

 

[VenetianPriest]

Since most of the questions thus far have concerned the succession laws in CKII, I'll ask a question about something else:

Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants.

We know from the second dev diary that CKII will not include the power levels for each class as in CK. Will the Kingdom Laws take over much of this part of the original game? What kind of laws can we expect on the Kingdom level? Will we see some the the important power level events from CK represented as decisions here; for example, the burghers want to sell their goods in the church square event?

Can we expect some kind of graphical representation for their freedoms vs. obligations; something similar to sliders in EUIII?

 

[Nekromans]

Will the game cover the possibility of posthumous birth - meaning, if Duke Exemplar VI of Generick dies before his wife Pregnantrude gives birth to their only child, will the throne fall to his wicked younger brother Diabolus (as would happen if there was no pregnancy, what a "lucky" stroke for Diabolus), or will the throne be reserved until we find out if the newborn is Infantus or Infanta (with the titles then passing on as if the child was born before Examplar died)?

 

[Keinwyn]

Are there any plans to have husbands rule in stead of their wives, yet have the kingdom's succession tied to the wife?

I mean the old king dies, and his daughter inherits, but her husband rules as king. However they have no children together so despite him having a son by an earlier marriage the throne passes to her sister...

 

[alicuza]

I like the changes very much.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Are there any plans to have husbands rule in stead of their wives, yet have the kingdom's succession tied to the wife?

I mean the old king dies, and his daughter inherits, but her husband rules as king. However they have no children together so despite him having a son by an earlier marriage the throne passes to her sister...

I'd like this very much. +1 to jure uxoris

 

[Nick B II]

Yes, exactly. If we're using the seniority system to simulate the rota, once all the other Kievan princes die, the last brother/son/nephew left standing will have inherited all the others' titles and will be a giant Rus' blob. So I'm trying to think of an effective way to use the inheritance systems we've been given by the devs to better simulate the Kievan Rus' inheritance system.

Any word on EU2-style AI files?

You could set make Kiev a Kingdom with the Princes as vassals, set it to Elective, force all the vassals to vote for their eldest brother, and force the new King to revoke all his brothers titles and regrant them in order.

Nick

 

[The Kingmaker]

Any word on EU2-style AI files?

You could set make Kiev a Kingdom with the Princes as vassals, set it to Elective, force all the vassals to vote for their eldest brother, and force the new King to revoke all his brothers titles and regrant them in order.

I think it's a good idea, but AFAIK it'd require a fair bit of modding. I was hoping for perhaps a more overt solution, if one presents itself.

 

[ZhugeKongming]

Will the game cover the possibility of posthumous birth - meaning, if Duke Exemplar VI of Generick dies before his wife Pregnantrude gives birth to their only child, will the throne fall to his wicked younger brother Diabolus (as would happen if there was no pregnancy, what a "lucky" stroke for Diabolus), or will the throne be reserved until we find out if the newborn is Infantus or Infanta (with the titles then passing on as if the child was born before Examplar died)?

I believe Doomdark mentioned somewhere that there would be something in place to simulate regencies? Shouldn't be too hard to make this system apply to unborn children as well.

 

[DukeWilleo1630]

I think it's a good idea, but AFAIK it'd require a fair bit of modding. I was hoping for perhaps a more overt solution, if one presents itself.

Well I'm not really a computuer person, don't know much about modding. But couldn't you set up a very intricate chain of events to handle it based on the dynasty succesion line of males? The only problem I see with this is that you would tie the events to certain duchies. What if you lose those duchies?

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Think about a Westeros Mod for CKII ohh the possibilities (now able to have a Hand, 4th tier etc)

Ours is the Mod!
Mod is Coming!
Hear Me Mod!
We Do Not Mod!

no, wait...

 

[the_hdk]

Ours is the Mod!
Mod is Coming!
Hear Me Mod!
We Do Not Mod!

no, wait...

:rofl:

"Unbent, Unbowed, Unmodded"
"Growing mods"" ....

nah those arn't as good

i like
Mod is Coming!
Hear Me Mod!

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Very interesting. I love the concept of the law of the demesne vs the law of the realm.

Will there be benefits or disadvantages attached to the different succession laws, to counter-balance that some seem more secure and natural than others?

For instance, what would prevent most players to switch to primogeniture by default to prevent any future trouble and ensure a smooth transition? Why would a player keep, for instance, the Turkish style succession if one of the first thing any player would do is to switch to primogeniture as soon as possible to minimize risks of succession crisises.

Well, presumably the more hazardous succession laws lead to more competent heirs, when there's a larger pool to choose from. I'm quite pleased with how the game seems to be shaping up. In CK1, consanguinary succession was hands-down best, allowing you to effectively choose which son would inherit, without any risk of losing the crown to another dynasty. In Ck2 though, absolute dynastic security would require primogeniture, which in turn means you'd have to put up with an incompetent king now and then. On the other end of the spectrum would be Turkish succession, where (effectively) the most competent son inherits, though at the expense of regular bloodshed.

Succession laws should be very hard and troublesome to switch. Even something like the Salic Law in France took the approval of the peers of the Realm in assembly to ratify, because everyone knew it would have a huge impact in the future.

Myself, I'm not a fan of hard limitations. A king should be able to decree any law he wants, the question should rather be whether he can get away with it, and whether the change outlives him or is whisked away as soon as he's gone.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

:rofl:

"Unbent, Unbowed, Unmodded"
"Growing mods"" ....

nah those arn't as good

i like
Mod is Coming!
Hear Me Mod!

Fire and Mod! I am the Mod of the Dragon!

Damnit, I'll have to get VRRP into respectable shape before CK2 comes out so I can afford participating in the inevitable Westeros mod project.

 

[Nick B II]

Well I'm not really a computuer person, don't know much about modding. But couldn't you set up a very intricate chain of events to handle it based on the dynasty succesion line of males? The only problem I see with this is that you would tie the events to certain duchies. What if you lose those duchies?

The problem with just using events is there's no way to take a title away via event in CK1. And for this o work everybody has to lose all their titles and exchange them for new ones higher up the food chain.

If there's a way to lose/grant titles via event in CK2 it could be done, but DD hasn't said whether that will exist.

Nick

 

[Calgacus]

Yes, exactly. If we're using the seniority system to simulate the rota, once all the other Kievan princes die, the last brother/son/nephew left standing will have inherited all the others' titles and will be a giant Rus' blob. So I'm trying to think of an effective way to use the inheritance systems we've been given by the devs to better simulate the Kievan Rus' inheritance system.

Seniority would obviously be the closest. Blobbing avoidance ... well, this is a bug in the game in general. 1066 isn't the 16th century. You can't just horde titles. Important polities demand their own rulers or they'll break away, rulers able to be present. Perhaps incorporate into the laws some kind of system where you can't have more than a certain number of duchy or kingdom titles? But I dunno, in reference to Russia I'm not even sure how they are going to organize it. Will Kiev and Chernigov be separate kingdoms, will one be a kingdom one a duchy? Will different "titles" have different succession laws?

 

[The Kingmaker]

Will different "titles" have different succession laws?

As far as I can tell, they've at least confirmed this one... with each demesne being able to have its own laws in addition to the kingdom laws. So it seems like it would be possible to have a duchy with primogeniture in an elective kingdom, or a "gavelkind" under a seniority-based monarchy, etc.