Legacy of Rome will be released next week, so this dev diary will be the last of this cycle. Doomdark is busy hammering away at the game, so this week the honor of writing it falls to me. As he said last time, we'll finish off with some of the unique decisions, events and mechanics we've added to the Byzantine Empire in the DLC. Note that the following stuff is for the DLC, not the free 1.07 patch.

Succession in Byzantium works the same as in the rest of Europe, except for one thing. Children born to an emperor during his reign will get the ”Born in the Purple” trait, which gives them a stronger succession claim than any older siblings born before their parents ascended the throne. If you, as emperor, still want your gifted firstborn son as your heir instead of his snotnosed younger brother who had the good fortune of being born during your reign, infanticide is not your only option. Granting the Despot honorary title to your firstborn will rank him the same as if he had the Purple trait, and given his seniority in age, he will become your heir again.

View attachment LoR_02_ERE_Events.jpg

Ambitious emperors will no doubt try to reclaim some of Rome's former glory by restoring the Empire's lost territory. If they or their imperial vassals hold certain provinces, they will have the opportunity to restore the Roman Empire. This decision essentially signifies that the West has no choice but to accept the Byzantines as the true heirs of Rome's legacy. You will get a new title (complete with a new flag, of course), and the rulers of a restored Rome always get the ”Augustus” trait, which gives a slight boost to vassal relations. If you wish it, there is a decision to move your capital to Rome, though the city scarcely compares to Constantinople in this era so you will likely have to invest a lot of gold and time to rebuild it.

Another major decision, of course, is to mend the Great Schism between the Catholic and Orthodox churches. You will need to reunite the Pentarchy (Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Rome) under Byzantine and Orthodox rule and accumulate a great deal of piety. When this decision is taken, Catholicism will become a heresy and Catholic rulers across Europe will have to decide whether to convert or not. A few will refuse, and Europe will likely be plagued by religious unrest for some time, but the first step has now been taken to unite Christendom under a single church.

View attachment LoR_01_ERE_Events.jpg

As you have probably seen, Byzantine rulers can elect to blind or castrate their prisoners. This can be an efficient way of permanently crippling your rivals without executing them outright. Have an obnoxious brother that covets your throne? If he is blinded or castrated, he will be removed from the imperial succession, and you will have one less pretender to worry about. Just don't expect him to like you much afterwards.

Castrated rivals aside, eunuchs played an important role at the Byzantine imperial court, and from time to time one of them will distinguish himself enough to be brought to your attention. This eunuch will be very loyal to your ruler and quite skilled in his chosen field. When other lords turn their backs on you, you will usually still be able to depend on his service, whether it's as a skilled general or a gifted spymaster.

Other events you can expect to see are triumphs being held when you emerge victorious from decisive wars, unruly Varangians in the capital, Hippodrome races and much more.

View attachment LoR_03_ERE_Events.jpg

Finally, let me stress that this does not mean that we have created a supercharged Byzantine Empire that will always go on to dominate Europe as the Romans did before them. Skilled and dedicated players will be able to stage a miraculous recovery and recreate the borders of the Roman Empire and maybe even hold it all together afterwards, but we have naturally taken care not to upset the balance of the game. Just wanted to put that out there.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

But let's assume for the moment it's just my own personal narrative: yet we'd need something for Italians, don't you guys agree? The thing is, I really don't want to remove Sicily from the de jure area of the Byzantine Empire (to combine it together with Italy for an empire of "Italia"), even if admittedly this creates some problems in game. So what would you prefer/suggest?

I think the kingdom of Italy is sufficient; I don't agree with you that Italian culture necessarily requires its own empire.

 

[Sarog]

See, I just don't think that a perceived void in gameplay is cause to brand the Latin Empire as Italian when it was never ruled by Italians. If a title actually existed in history, the game version of that title should represent the historical polity. You seem to want to appropriate a title because it is there, to make it mean what you want it to mean, when that is never what it actually was. I can't help but think an ahistorical goal that is so particularly specific would be better served in a new title created by a mod.

But let's assume for the moment it's just my own personal narrative: yet we'd need something for Italians, don't you guys agree? The thing is, I really don't want to remove Sicily from the de jure area of the Byzantine Empire (to combine it together with Italy for an empire of "Italia"), even if admittedly this creates some problems in game. So what would you prefer/suggest?

We really don't, though. Not every kingdom, or culture group, should have an Empire. If Italians warrant one, then by the same logic we need a Dutch Empire, a Polish Empire, an Ethiopian Empire, an Empire of Mali, a Cumanian Empire, etc. Empires are mutli-cultural, and the current ahistorical empires make a certain amount of sense either in terms of culture or geography. Uniting the British Isles is a natural, tantalizing goal for any ruler there, because the territorial union of those kingdoms makes sense. Likewise Spain. Uniting the peoples of Scandinavia is also a natural goal for a ruler there, because of strong cultural ties between those kingdoms. Francia is a bit of both, and brings to mind the Carolingian empire. But if we took Poland, Hungary, and Wallachia and lumped them together because they deserve something as well... we'd end up with something that didn't make any sense.

Italy is like that. Playing Italian, the cultural and geographical goals you have are uniting italy, winning independence, and acquiring Sicily because it makes geographical sense. Beyond that, you don't have any clear cultural or geographical ambitions to pursue in the same way that England or Denmark does. And that's okay. Playing different regions and different cultures should be different challenges and have different emphasis. Not every king has clear geographical territories to unite, and not every king should have an Imperial crown hanging within reach. The other ahistorical empires we have do, for the most part, make sense even if there isn't really precedent for them. An Italian empire wouldn't make sense - or, rather, it would make less sense to the point that its inclusion would definitely be highly debatable. I'm of the opinion that something so specific to a player's personal narrative and particular ahistorical objectives would really be better expressed in a mod rather than requiring questionable changes to be made to the game itself.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Can you recall me at least one Italian emperor of the Latin Empire, please?

This is ridiculous. How about a swedish Emperor of Scandinavia?

I think the kingdom of Italy is sufficient; I don't agree with you that Italian culture necessarily requires its own empire.

And Sicily.

I see, however. I can live with that as modding the Latin Empire to be italian is quite easy, however I hope that Paradox copes to some extent with the relatively popular demand for an Italian Empire.

 

[Joel M Bridge]

Guess talk about mechanic or events in game, or is any surprise by little talk about other special events, Usurpers or co-emperors, how honor title where big source of income. How eunuchs would get get his family on the imperial throne, or going have tired debate about the legitimacy of empires, that seen on the forum many times before.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I prefer your idea of just moving Italy into de jure Francia and removing the bizarre creation requirement. Just make Francia formable by anyone in the Latin culture group, which would of course include Italians.

I don't think an Italian Empire really makes sense during this period, but it's not something I am interested in debating ad nauseum.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

See, I just don't think that a perceived void in gameplay is cause to brand the Latin Empire as Italian when it was never ruled by Italians. If a title actually existed in history, the game version of that title should represent the historical polity. You seem to want to appropriate a title because it is there, to make it mean what you want it to mean, when that is never what it actually was. I can't help but think an ahistorical goal that is so particularly specific would be better served in a new title created by a mod.

We really don't, though. Not every kingdom, or culture group, should have an Empire. If Italians warrant one, then by the same logic we need a Dutch Empire, a Polish Empire, an Ethiopian Empire, an Empire of Mali, a Cumanian Empire, etc. Empires are mutli-cultural, and the current ahistorical empires make a certain amount of sense either in terms of culture or geography. Uniting the British Isles is a natural, tantalizing goal for any ruler there, because the territorial union of those kingdoms makes sense. Likewise Spain. Uniting the peoples of Scandinavia is also a natural goal for a ruler there, because of strong cultural ties between those kingdoms. Francia is a bit of both, and brings to mind the Carolingian empire. But if we took Poland, Hungary, and Wallachia and lumped them together because they deserve something as well... we'd end up with something that didn't make any sense.

Italy is like that. Playing Italian, the cultural and geographical goals you have are uniting italy, winning independence, and acquiring Sicily because it makes geographical sense. Beyond that, you don't have any clear cultural or geographical ambitions to pursue in the same way that England or Denmark does. And that's okay. Playing different regions and different cultures should be different challenges and have different emphasis. Not every king has clear geographical territories to unite, and not every king should have an Imperial crown hanging within reach. The other ahistorical empires we have do, for the most part, make sense even if there isn't really precedent for them. An Italian empire wouldn't make sense - or, rather, it would make less sense to the point that its inclusion would definitely be highly debatable. I'm of the opinion that something so specific to a player's personal narrative and particular ahistorical objectives would really be better expressed in a mod rather than requiring questionable changes to be made to the game itself.

I see. The issue is that I find it unfair that few selected cultures have "the privilege of an empire". This is as arbitrary as assigning the LE to Italians. However, I think that the perceived feeling is that the Italian culture is somewhat more historically relevant and popular than, say, Dutch or Cuman. I personally myself modded the empire of Britannia to be welsh or breton depending on the game I wanted to play, but I'd never suggest it to be a universal rule, as I see that this would really be just about my narrative. (Same as I have personally put the kingdom of Italy into the empire of Francia and removed the weird creation conditions for the latter.)

Another solution would be to change the rules for cultural conversion. And make them clearer. That would for sure make everybody happy.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I prefer your idea of just moving Italy into de jure Francia and removing the bizarre creation requirement. Just make Francia formable by anyone in the Latin culture group, which would of course include Italians.

The issue is not who can create what, but cultural conversion

 

[Joel M Bridge]

I see. The issue is that I find it unfair that few selected cultures have "the privilege of an empire". This is as arbitrary as assigning the LE to Italians. However, I think that the perceived feeling is that the Italian culture is somewhat more historically relevant and popular than, say, Dutch or Cuman. I personally myself modded the empire of Britannia to be welsh or breton depending on the game I wanted to play, but I'd never suggest it to be a universal rule, as I see that this would really be just about my narrative. (Same as I have personally put the kingdom of Italy into the empire of Francia and removed the weird creation conditions for the latter.)

Another solution would be to change the rules for cultural conversion. And make them clearer. That would for sure make everybody happy.

How about get ride all Christan empire expect ones that should be there made sense. Other goals for players to want more, have no historical base to them.

 

[Sarog]

I see. The issue is that I find it unfair that few selected cultures have "the privilege of an empire". This is as arbitrary as assigning the LE to Italians.

It really isn't, though, because for those other cultures the empires make cultural or geographical sense, as I've discussed. An italian empire would not make such sense, and is therefore excluded. That is certainly not arbitrary.

However, I think that the perceived feeling is that the Italian culture is somewhat more historically relevant and popular than, say, Dutch or Cuman.

You'll understand that this is subjective bias, right? Providing for Italians on the basis of believing that they were more important, while simultaneously denying the privilege of Empire to the Dutch... that certainly would be arbitrary.

I'm not going to debate this more though, since I think we've exhausted the discussion points here and it seems clear where and why we disagree. Some reform on cultural conversation mechanics would definitely be a nice touch, though I don't rank the issue quite as highly as you do.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

It really isn't, though, because for those other cultures the empires make cultural or geographical sense, as I've discussed. An italian empire would not make such sense, and is therefore excluded. That is certainly not arbitrary.

You'll understand that this is subjective bias, right? Providing for Italians on the basis of believing that they were more important, while simultaneously denying the privilege of Empire to the Dutch... that certainly would be arbitrary.

I'm not going to debate this more though, since I think we've exhausted the discussion points here and it seems clear where and why we disagree. Some reform on cultural conversation mechanics would definitely be a nice touch, though I don't rank the issue quite as highly as you do.

Ok, I see.

Let's stop this discussion. However, let me point out that I base my "ranking of relevance" on medieval demographics. Italy has been throughout this period the most populous western country, and numerically there have always been more Italians than Frankish, Occitans, Castilians, Saxon/English (not sure about Germans). After the Turkish assimilation of Anatolia, also more Italians than Greeks.

 

[Federalist girl]

Hah, I knew this would happen once the fantasy empires were inserted into the game.

Anyway, adding an empire is something that is easily done via modding. It's not something that requires new gameplay mechanics like the ERE/Orthodox stuff does in LoR. And I'd also submit that Italy's central importance in this time period is not in its long vanished imperial Roman heritage, but its *republican* Roman heritage--the tradition of local self-government that led to the creation of the first modern republics. Forget having another cookiee-cutter empire: once we get a republic DLC, Italia will shine and actually be unique.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

I think the kingdom of Italy is sufficient; I don't agree with you that Italian culture necessarily requires its own empire.

I'm Italian and I agree

 

[Alerias]

Italy should be included in the HRE, and new mechanics added to give Italians ways to shift the focus of the HRE back to Italy. I think this should be added in the playable Theocraties DLC, which will likely flesh out the Pope a bit more. Giving ways for characters to increase Papal power over the HRE at the expense of the Emperor would be perfect, and the resulting instability would be both historical and counterbalance having Italy in it De Jure.

This way instead of creating fictional Empires you could give Italians ways to use/gain control of the one they already have...

Speaking of this, I really wonder what happens to the HRE when Byzantium reclaims the mantle of Roman Empire in this DLC. It would be odd for it to be forced to recognize Byzantium's primacy, but yet still get to call itself the HRE.

 

[Federalist girl]

Yeah, hopefully that's addressed. Worst come to worst though, it's fairly easy to destroy the HRE title via a decision-triggered event.

 

[Bundeswag]

After the legacy of Rome is released and I play multiplayer with my friend who doesnt have it can I still use those features in game?

 

[Mixxer5]

After the legacy of Rome is released and I play multiplayer with my friend who doesnt have it can I still use those features in game?

You both can (at least retinues).

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I'm Italian and I agree

Ok, I've read the discussion carefully: before I was at work and I was answering quite compulsively to single points losing sight of the big picture. Hence, I have put myself in a position of being misunderstood for what I really think about the entire thing. As I said before, I do not want an 'Empire of Italia'. Let me explain what I have in my mind.

First of all, we are talking about the Legacy of Rome and Roman Imperial Restoration. I think that virtually all of us would like to see some mechanism that allows westerners to restore the Roman Empire. Which is what I want. Now, there are two ways to do this.

- 'Weak Restoration': some Western/Catholic political entity claims Roman and Imperial legitimacy in the sense of being the western counterpart of the Byzantine (i.e. actual Roman) Empire. This is what the HRE essentially is. This is related to the causes of all that fight about the new empires when 1.06 came out, as many people - including me - would not have liked to see two western empires at the same time on the map, and hence they advocated some kind of 'Translatio Imperii' mechanics. Now, I still would like to see a well implemented one, but I am also content the way things are now, as I have come to realize that is fun to get to create those extra empires and since the AI almost never does it you can typically come out with a way to play or a narrative that justifies that 'romanly' (example: a neo-arthurian Empire of Britannia can have Roman Legitimacy and at the same time co-exist with the HRE); so any extra mechanics should be aimed at making it more fun.

In this sense, I do not see that is strictly necessary to add anything new to the game. Some new stuff along the lines of what Alerias was speaking about, that improves gameplay within the HRE giving Italians a role in the whole Church vs. Empire fight, would be enough in this setting to give Italians their proper role in the game. I also share Alerias' concern about what would happen to the HRE after the Byzantine-Roman restoration.

- 'Strong Restoration': some already existing Empire claims to be the actual 'sole' Roman Empire. This is what we will see implemented in the Legacy of Rome for the sole Byzantine Empire. Now, what we want (I guess) is the possibility to have this for other Western/Catholic Empires as well. However, this must be extremely difficult, for in order to do this you must destroy or somewhat subjugate the actual legitimate heir of the Roman Empire that is based in the East. This points to the idea that the Latin Empire, whose creation requirements need the Byzantine Empire not to exist, would have something to do with all this. So the idea is that you either can restore Rome from/in the West when Byzantium has ceased to exist, or as an extra requirement you must hold the Latin Empire title.

Culturally-wise, such a possibility should be open to a reasonably open set of western cultures. Would we deny the options to the Italians, the culturally, linguistically and genetically closest descendents of the Romans? Of course not. The Latin Empire would be only a means for this. However, this leaves open the problem of the culture one assigns to the Latin Empire or to the westernly restored Roman Empire (what we were discussing before in terms of what is being implemented in the Legacy of Rome). At the moment, that line in the landed_titles.txt files serves one sole purpose: determine the settlers' event for cultural conversion. So either the latter mechanics is changed, or we give up to the settlers' event for the westernly restored Roman Empire, or we choose a culture. Which culture?

I claim on historical grounds that unless one wants to reintroduce 'dead' cultures in our fictional histories (which I claim before would be somewhat implausible) then the best candidates are Italian for the Western Restoration and Greek for Eastern Restoration. Hence, this might imply (depending on how the mechanics are implemented) that the Latin Empire is written as 'Italian' in the landed_titles.txt file, but not that its creation would be closed to other cultures, as it would be, for the first thing, quite ahistorical.

If you go to the 'Post your Empire' thread you'll see that some people have already worked out Italian imperial restorations using the Latin Empire, hence it would not be that unpopular. In one nice screenshot, one can also see the Latin Empire in the western area of the historical WRE, and a Byzantine Empire expanded in the Levant, Egypt and Mesopotamia, both ruled by the Palaiologos dynasty (not sure about the culture of the rulers though).

Personally, in order to attempt the same thing and expand the Italian culture into Africa, I modded the Latin Empire as being italian (but creatable by anyone in the latin cultural group!) but I would not suggest it as something to be introduced in vanilla; I'd rather ask for some 'Western Imperial Restoration' option.

 

[S. Bailly Smith]

This looks awesome.

I do have one question (or maybe a suggestion), is there any way that when you reunite the Roman Empire that you can undergo a culture shift, much like the Saxons turn into English. Turn from "Greek" to "Roman" complete with more Roman-y style names like "Valentinian" and "Octavian"?

 

[Federalist girl]

You could easily do that in a mod, but I desperately hope that's not part of the actual DLC.

 

[S. Bailly Smith]

You could easily do that in a mod, but I desperately hope that's not part of the actual DLC.

If this is a response to me, why would that be so bad. If I may ask?