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Last week I told you about the College of Cardinals and the new papal powers (though I believe I forgot to mention that the Pope can also grant you claims on counties and duchies!) Today I'll go through the rest of the new Christian mechanics in Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham, as well as the new Muslim stuff. Let's start with the Holy Orders!

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We have given each non-heretic religion in the game at least one Holy Order. This includes the various pagan religions, though most of their Holy Orders are rather fanciful. The Catholics also get two more in addition to the old ones; the Knights of Calatrava and the Knights of Santiago, both of which are mostly active in Hispania. Holy Orders are no longer activated at a certain date, many will start showing up once the Crusades/Jihads kick off (which is also more dynamic now), or when certain conditions are met. For example, the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre (an Orthodox Holy Order) becomes active if Antioch and Jerusalem are Orthodox and held by Orthodox rulers. Holy Orders are now much more active in world politics, and both their internal and external mechanics have been altered. You can now borrow money from certain Holy Orders (like the Knights Templar), or donate money for Piety. They, in turn, will make various requests (and if you owe them money, it is hard to refuse.) For example, they can ask that one of your sons join them, or that you give them the right to build a castle in an empty holding slot in one of your counties. Internally, Grandmasters are no longer randomly generated characters, but chosen from among vassals and courtiers, many of which will now be important members of European nobility. Having a Grandmaster of your dynasty will give you a monthly amount of prestige. Castle holdings under the Grandmaster are no longer hereditary, but appointed to a "Commander" for life. We have also added some minor rules and decisions, like if you happen to be the king of Jerusalem, you now have the option to vassalize the Templars and the Knights of St John. Lastly, if you think that an Order has grown too powerful in your realm, you can expel it forever, seizing its castles (a very impious act.)

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Somewhat related to the Holy Orders, you now have the ability to order any courtier to take the vows and become a monk or nun. The character will then either become a regular monk or nun (traits), or go off to join one of the martial orders. Either way, he or she will be disinherited. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to do this against characters who stand to inherit titles (like younger sons under Gavelkind); unless you imprison them first!

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As I mentioned earlier, the Crusades will no longer necessarily kick off after a certain year; it now depends on the actual situation in Europe. For example, if Constantinople or Rome have fallen or the Moors are pushing into France. Similar conditions now apply for the Muslims. The Pagans - if they can have Great Holy Wars - will get them after the Crusades and Jihads are both active.

We have also improved on the heresies; most of them are now more distinctive and some of them even have their own heads of religion. For example, the Cathars can appoint female bishops and the Ibadi can now have their own Caliph, etc. The events that control the spread of heresies are different if you have Sons of Abraham; heresies tend to be more localized and it is also possible for minority view non-heretics among your courtiers to spread their faith (i.e. an Orthodox courtier among Catholics, etc.) Perhaps the most drastic change to heresies though, is that they can now take over as the new orthodoxy if they hold more provinces than the current mainstream form of the religion. If, say, more counties are Waldensian than Catholic, Catholicism will become the heresy and its Holy Orders will join the Waldensians. Oh, and we also decided to add "regular" religious rebels who are not trying to spread a heresy, just to gain freedom from the religious oppression of their overlords (e.g. Sunni rebels in a Catholic realm.)

Catholicism may have received the most attention in Sons of Abraham, but we have not forgotten the Muslims. They get a choice between two rival schools of theology and the conflicts that arise out of taking a stance. On one side, you have the Mu'tazili school, which espouses reason and rational thought inspired by the ancient Greek philosophers. Opposing them are the Ash'ari, who belive in the eternal, uncreated word of Allah. Historically, the Mutazilites lost out after some fairly brutal conflicts and draconian measures like the Mihna , arguably bringing to an end the Islamic Golden Age. In game terms, Mutazilites get a Learning bonus for research, whereas the Ash'ari gain Piety, and members of opposing schools tend to loathe each other.

I think that will do for now. Next week, I'll speak of pilgrimages, religious events and Judaism!
 
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Hm. I would rather the Orthodoxy not have Holy Orders, because it makes them more like the Catholics, and symmetry between religions is to be avoided wherever possible.

It's like Orthodoxy not getting Crusades; that's their payback for not having to deal with a recalcitrant and powerful Catholic Church. Orthodox religion is generally less political (though obviously not entirely apolitical) and isn't as useful for justifying Holy War; on the other hand, Orthodox monarchs also have close-to-full control over their own clergy, can be assured of receiving the profits from their temple holdings, and aren't threatened with excommunication. "Everyone gets a holy order" makes Catholicism and Orthodoxy more homogenous in a way that doesn't add much to the game.

But as they already pointed out, the Orthodox's holy order doesn't appear without the Orthodox faith already claiming and taking the Holy Land, so it's really only for Orthodox players who already have chosen to be militant.
 
Non-Christians religious characters should probably be able to marry. (The prohibition against marriage amongst clergy and monastic orders was basically a Catholic and Orthodox thing.) All should be able to educate. (Religious institutions were one of (if not the) key educational institution in medieval times.) Right?
 
It's a pity we can't play as the Holy Orders in this DLC. I hope Paradox develops this later. I want to start in the 1200s as the State of the Teutonic Order and give the love of Christ to these Baltic pagans with sword and fire!

It'd be interesting having to play as a holy order, having to maintain prestige and piety high to convince the landless sons (no claims) to join you. If either one of those were negative, the game would be over, as would be if there were no new members after the last one died.
 
ARAB AND CELTIC PAGANISM!!!! ARAB AND CELTIC PAGANISM!!!! ARAB AND CELTIC PAGANISM!!!! ARAB AND CELTIC PAGANISM!!!!
This is why we need a new game set in antiquity. People are shouting for things that just aren't appropriate in a game set in CK2's timeframe.
 
And which one would better? The problem is there aren't many Orthodox Holy Orders. More like as good as nothing. It's nice enough the found a historical Order for the Orthodox characters. And I'm prefer historical orders and made up holy orders.

Well I don't pretend to have researched this myself. My original objection stemmed from the fact that the Orthodox really don't refer to the Holy Sepulchre as the Holy Sepulchre, but having rooted around on the internet for a bit it seems that the Greek name for the group is the Hagiotaphites, which would loosely translate as 'men of the holy tomb', which is effectively the same, so you have a fair point on that front. However, it's also pretty clear that these men are monks who effectively act as janitors, and are certainly not soldiers in anything like the sense of Holy Orders in CK2.

I take your point that it could be roleplaying alternative history, with Orthodox becoming more militant and perhaps imitating Catholic institutions. In fact, I strongly suspect that the idea of having an 'order' of Orthodox monks devoted to guarding the Holy Resurrection church was a result of Latin influence during the period of Crusader rule. I'm sure that the idea of a 4th-century order of spoudaioi (a word that just means 'fervent') devoted to guarding the church is an anachronistic modern reading of the fact that there were monks in 4th-century Jerusalem who acted as zealous janitors.

The point of all of this is that the idea of monastic 'orders' is specifically a western, Catholic concept that began to develop largely in the 11th and 12th centuries. Orthodox Christianity does not have a comparable system of defined orders under centralised control. While I'm not against the idea of an alternate history playing out in which Orthodox are influenced by Catholics and become more militant, I do think that more time should be devoted to fleshing out and correcting features that are actually specific to Orthodox Christianity. As another poster said, it's a bit like giving the Orthodox a crusade mechanic - not necessarily beyond the realms of possibility, but certainly not something that's historical. It's giving depth to Orthodoxy by making it more like Catholicism, which I'm not really that happy with.
 
So I'm probably exposing relative noobery by asking this, but would I be able to use the DLC in already-existing savegames? I'd hate to not be able to use the doctrinal schism stuff with my Umayyad game.

That will be mentioned at patch release. Might be compatible as most before, but expect a few glitches. So not bug free, but playable.
 
Could we have Crusades like the ones that happened in history? Where if won all the land won't just go to the winner.. seeing England become Jerusalem can be.. ugh. Just give 'em a piety bonus, some title, some trait, prestige, and/or some money in change for creating several new states in the holy land. O:
 
Could we have Crusades like the ones that happened in history? Where if won all the land won't just go to the winner.. seeing England become Jerusalem can be.. ugh. Just give 'em a piety bonus, some title, some trait, prestige, and/or some money in change for creating several new states in the holy land. O:

I think most of us are hoping that Crusades are going to be reworked like this. Hopefully we'll find out soon...
 
Just wanted to say that I love paradox for making games that I always dreamed of playing and that I will be purchasing this DLC just like all the rest of them. Seriously, never stop doing what you guys are doing.

With that said, this DLC will actually make the republican DLC fun. An early Borgia family perhaps?
 
Just wanted to say that I love paradox for making games that I always dreamed of playing and that I will be purchasing this DLC just like all the rest of them. Seriously, never stop doing what you guys are doing.

With that said, this DLC will actually make the republican DLC fun. An early Borgia family perhaps?

Surely a Jewish republic of Jerusalem would be even better :happy: