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Dev Diary #116 - Agrarian Research Techniques

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... Anyone watching? No? Good.

Ok, just you and me. Great, because I've only got a few wee lil morsels today and I don't want to share them with too many people. So let's all just keep this quiet and, if anyone asks, the dev diary was about how we research thirteenth century agrarian techniques in rural France. Got it? Good.

I want you to tell me what this historical character...
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... this historical character...
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... and this historical character all have in common.
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Figured it out? Yes? No? Waiting for someone else to scan through every character in the game before you hazard a guess? Ok, well, to be a bit fairer, it's got something to do with this:
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The list includes all the interactions in a particular category. You would not see all of them at the same time like this.
:D This has nothing to do with Wards & Wardens.

Finally, none of them are directly connected to this chap:
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Alright, that's all I've got for you today, but I expect to be going over that list again soon. And in detail. If anyone asks, remember: rural France, agriculture, thirteenth century, yada yada.

Till next time!
 
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Thirteenth century is best century, that's all. Edward I, Ban Kulin, both the Latin Empire and Michael VIII, the list goes on. It's a fascinating era in history and I really wish we had a bookmark in it. Or two, or three.

... sadly I think 1200s bookmarks are far down the bookmark prio list, after our fan favourites in 936 & 1081. I guess there's 1187, which is close but suffers from a chronic case of Richard the Lionheart being alive.

Though CK3 generally doesn't include reused script from CK2 (except for some of the loc of the health events, I believe), the major exception to that is our history files. They're not 1:1 the same, as CK2 continued development for a while after CK3 started up (which is partially why late history changes introduced into CK2 sometimes aren't present in CK3, though there's also sometimes a deliberate design choice there too) and CK3's done a decent amount of redevelopment and revamping since, but you'll find a lot of crossover from that shared heritage.

The biggest part of that is CK3 retaining the post-1066 history, even though we don't have a post-1066 bookmark. As far as I'm aware, sadly, there was never a 1200s bookmark on the table, but there were (and still are from some members of the team) hopes to have some specific later bookmarks at some point in the future.
( Stares in Princes of Darkness 1230 AD Bookmark )

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Resource management might be the wrong word here. Aside from food (and famine), I think we have enough resources already.

But resources as means of having access to certain things? That's not resource management, but strategic options for you and everyone else. Cutting someone in the desert off from food trade or iron imports should hurt, likewise having access to said resources should provide bonuses others have not.

My favorite example is spices; why does the King of Alba pay the same money for spices as anyone who is sitting on the Silk Road? Without any system in place, which tracks where certain resources come from and which way they go, everyone in the world, from Iceland to the deepest desert of Africa, has equal and instant access to anything and lacks for nothing.

With that there's no incentive to go and conquer stuff for resources, or to keep friendly relations to ensure safe trade routes. Cities as centers of craftmanship and trade have no place in a world without trade. They're just funny looking castle holdings, more or less identical in functionality.

It's not about managing resources, but about strategic options, about the decision to develop your local resources to engage in trade, or to throw your money into the military and just take what you need. It's about taking tolls for trade that goes through your county, about market rights (which was a huge thing) and creating access to something you need to get certain innovations, make certain weapons etc. For example, Wootz Steel was traded from India and used in Damascus for many years. But right now only India has Wootz Steel, and nobody else can use it. You can't buy it, you just have to make a hybrid with someone who has the innovation. So trade and resources is also about realism to a certain extent.

Even within a realm I can see much potential for court events: two vassals with access to iron accuse each other of tapping into the other's deposits, your father gave the market rights in a county to a city for 50 years, now the time is over and three mayors try to gain it from you, or you as ruler hold the rights to certain resources (like gold/silver mines) despite your vassal owning the land, and now he's accused of stealing from you.

Events and strategic options, reasons for war and reasons for playing it nice. That's what I see when I talk about resources.
While I agree that sounds fun, were early feudal rulers that strategic ? My understanding was that they had a very extractive approach to economy, only looking to ensure taxes on short term, like building bridges because they knew they could tax the hell out of it and not really thinking about it as infrastructure or an investment facilitating the flow of goods. There wasn't really any "state" to begin with in most of places, and most of evolution in trade, innovations and development would occur outside of rulers involvement.

In other words, they were a lot blinder to the state of economy than eu4 timeframe rulers who disposed of actual bureaucracy and state capacity.

But I'm maybe wrong on this medieval stuff.
 
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Agrarian research techniques doesn't sound like the most interesting thing for people to try to spend their time uncovering riddles over. Isn't this more of a twitter post teaser material?

I hope the next dev diary talks about any possible new content.
 
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It'd be kinda funny if the "not connected to this chap" dude was also a regent. And what connected them was something silly like they were most known for their chicken salad recipe, or they gifted land charitably or something like that. Anyways, I tried putting myself into the shoes of a Swede, downloaded (then ignored) NotoSans a typeface I think they use, and I tried to size the white bars to the black bar:
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As you can see, I failed. I failed both in content and sizing. Also, shout out to Stevan3. If there's any good ideas in here it's probably because I stole their ideas:

As established, the portraits are of elder relatives acting as regents to child rulers. How is this related to sickle shapes?

"the Hainalt Scythe" -> a agricultural tool named for Hainaut.

Richilde, Countess of Hainaut is mother to Arnulf III (child-ruler of Flanders until Uncle 'Robert the Frisian' usurped) and Baldwin II (child-ruler of Hainaut). Regency confirmed!!!

Also my best guess for Personal Decisions:
View attachment 949670
 
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If we were to use your logic for the usefulness of replies, then one could say that posts here in Paradox's own forums would have the same (Nil) value but for opposite perspectives/reasons. Discounting 100% of all commentary on a platform sounds both contradictory and also calls into question the biases present in these forums for the opposite reasons.

The Us vs. Them approach doesn't sound nor appear healthy for the game (nor for Paradox long term).
I'm not saying that every comment on Steam is useless, but the problem is that the few getting posted are buried in a pile of (nicely-put) less helpful and constructive. That carries the problem of having to work through a lot of mud to find a few pearls (with that work ranging from simply digging to duplicate and spamm(ed) threads up to reading toxic posts).

And for taking the mud itself as something helpful (in the sense of "something being not right") - I see where you are coming from and in principle I would be tempted to agree at the first moment. But here the problem is negativity that in Steam dominates, even more so the more popular (in terms of players playing it) a certain game is and not always the negative tonality has some good reason. In quite some cases games get review-bombed and comment-bombed for quit minor fails or even something not having to with the game directly or at all. Such cases have to been distinguished from cases where the negativity in the Steam community is on something fundamental. And even if it is the latter, there is still the problem that the (in this case valid) feedback "something is wrong" is only helpful to a limited extend, as not necessarily the information is included what goes wrong or even better, proposals how to solve it. I concede that some posts might even offer helpful insights on those questions, but as stated in the very beginning, that is then again the mud/pearls problem.

Believe me, I would like it to be different - the idea to have game-based forums tied to the playing platfom is great itself, but the execution sadly fails because of lacking moderation and as consequence, a too high amount of people behaving non-helpful. And that simply raises the question how much effort Paradox should put into being active over there or processing feedback from such a place.
 
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13th century is one character
Agrarian is another
And french countryside is the third
 
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Actually the first king to be officially defined as "King of France" (rex Franciæ in latin) was Philippe-Auguste in 1190. Before that the official title was "King of the Franks" (rex Francorum in latin).
I was totally referring to him and i forgot one century in my calculations. Thank you !
 
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So I believe we have successfully identified the three initial characters, with the 3rd one being either Sverker or Guttorm Sigurdsson Hjort, Harald Hardradas uncle. We know for certain the 1st two were either designated or de facto regents (would that be a distinction in game?...). If the 3rd one is Hjort as I believe him to be, was he Haralds regent, as we assume this role to be that very interesting common thing between the three? If so, was he a regent during Haralds childhood or during his trip to the not-yet-United Kingdom in 1066 (or perhaps both)? Because if it's the latter then it opens a whole new realm (ha!) of possibilities: if a ruler going to war requires someone to take over actual ruling then regency will become a very common sight - justifying its addition as a feature! Child rulers are nowhere near that common.

Now, as it is there is a hint I havent seen anyone in the thread catching on yet. A thing that these three character have not in common at all. Let's see:
A French Catholic
An Ethiopian Ismaili
A pagan Norse.
This suggests all these cultures/religions/governments? (i dont recall if Norway is tribal in 1066, can't check rn) can have regencies - perhaps with some culture/religion/government related twists, which would also be the reason why a player couldn't see all the listed interactions at once (another valid reason for that being naturally the players role - either a ruler or a regent). Presence of Rasad obviously confirms that women can be regents too, at least in some cultures (wouldn't expect Wokeg to include her if it was only available via non-standard gamerules but that's a possibility too).
Speaking personally, I was very scandalised that my beloved Love & Lust was voted down partially by a large number of people assuming that Wards & Wardens, specifically, would come with certain mechanics. An outrageous injustice.
And that's because you already knew that this certain mechanic is coming into the game soon anyway! Isn't that so :D
That, I think, is the closest to official confirmation we can get right now, folks, so in my eyes regencies are confirmed. ^^

[edit] some wording, editting
 
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While I agree that sounds fun, were early feudal rulers that strategic ? My understanding was that they had a very extractive approach to economy, only looking to ensure taxes on short term, like building bridges because they knew they could tax the hell out of it and not really thinking about it as infrastructure or an investment facilitating the flow of goods. There wasn't really any "state" to begin with in most of places, and most of evolution in trade, innovations and development would occur outside of rulers involvement.

In other words, they were a lot blinder to the state of economy than eu4 timeframe rulers who disposed of actual bureaucracy and state capacity.

But I'm maybe wrong on this medieval stuff.

Do you know what the defining difference was between a city and a village in medieval times? It's market rights. The right to hold market, for which you have to import something in order to sell it. Goods that weren't readily available everywhere. That included things that were sold as they came, i.e. wine, furs etc., but also many processed goods, that were crafted by expert artisans using those rare goods.

The time in which the number of market towns rapidly increased was the 11th century, which is still well into the first half of the game's time period. That is where trade in Europe started to become a thing. It also wasn't uncommon to demand from a trader, in addition to a toll, to stay a day or two and offer their goods to the local community. Cities sitting on a river (on which goods were transported) often did that.

You're right, of course, feudal castles weren't known for their trade, and many nobles didn't hold cities and therefore only collected tolls. But it was the king/emperor who gave out market rights to cities, and you can bet they got something in return for it. The medieval practice of giving out market rights to certain settlements goes back to Charlemagne, so it actually predates the earliest starting year of the game. That is also where the CK3 system currently falls short with its hard distinction between castle and city holdings. Cities like Rome, Constantinople, London etc. weren't a feudal castle, but not calling them a city would be an insult. But you can bet they all had market rights and were centers of trade.

So, while you're right that many local nobles didn't have any economic thinking (especially not in terms of GDP), they still needed cities to meet their more refined needs. Where do you think all the spices for their daily food, all the fine textiles for clothing, the colors, the artists and painters came from? Even something simple as a stone quarry with expert stone masons was of great value, as you needed them to build/upgrade castles or build big churches. Especially the clergy was in huge demand for stone, art and textiles, for fine works of gold and silver etc.

Nobles (to which I also count theocratic rulers like bishops) were well aware of how important trade was, what access to certain resources and their value meant, they knew the importance of ports for trade and directly profited from it. Not just in taxes, but also in getting what they needed. The higher you went up the ladder, the more economic the thinking became.

Venice, for example, only rose to power because it was the main trade hub between the ERE and HRE. The 4th crusade against the ERE was a direct consequence of Venice fighting for economic dominance. Extremely interesting to read how the whole thing started and went on for years.

Anyway, I had a book once that covered the life of the local clergy in medieval times. There it was described that the bishop here engaged in vivid trade to import good wine, and could become very cranky if he didn't get any. In exchange he gave fur, for which the local region was known. One time the other bishop, who provided the wine, played a prank on our local bishop. He told his envoy to keep the wine delivery outside the city and tell the bishop here that the delivery was lost. Then the historian went on to describe how the bishop jumped into a fit of rage, before the envoy - in modern terms - said "it's a prank, bro!". After that the wine was brought in and the bishop was "as peaceful as a lamb".

Just to show that even the selfish demand of a single small and local ruler for luxury goods could lead to trade deals between two regions. It wasn't always economic thinking that led to trade.

This was also part of the problem Europe had with the Muslims sitting on the Silk Road. They not only collected tolls, but their growing empire also took more and more of those goods for itself, leaving less and less for everyone down the line. This in turn set up the need to find a way around the Silk Road by sea, which then led to the events that Europa Universalis covers.
 
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It's still Customer feedback, and ignoring 100% of it is the textbook definition of the phrase "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" -- the reaction to other Dev Diaries has typically been different. It's the "tenor and tone" to see here, and pay attention to. Bean Counters and Marketing at Paradox would certainly get something from it.

And again - I didn't say all comments were worth reading, but when the trend is 90%+ Negative, there's something there, there (like it or not, it's a significant trend that Paradox can ignore but probably shouldn't ignore).
I don't think anyone has to engage with toxic cesspools if that is not specifically what they are hired for.
That's a significant burden on people's mental health and just putting that on random employees is how you get people to quit their job if they have other options.

I do agree that there should be a bit of investigation of why the comments are generally negative, but i don't think anyone would necessarily have to sift through that blackwater to find tiny nuggets of useful information. I doubt that's worth the effort.
 
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Not content to leave the game a bare boned meme, now the same is true for the DDs. Shame. Didn't even count my Disagree for the score.

There is a time and place for goofing around like this.
This is currently not the time.
 
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That, I think, is the closest to official confirmation we can get right now, folks, so in my eyes regencies are confirmed. ^
I think they absolutely are - I was convinced when Wokeg liked my post saying that regencies fit in with the theme of the next expansion, i.e. reinforcing the connection between map and character.

edit: Got a Wokeg ‘like’ on this post too. Excited to see the regency mechanics in detail! :)
 
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I know I'm probably setting myself up for dissapointment but after this Dev Diary my brain is entering "WAITING FOR ANNOUNCEMENT MODE" in about 3 hours and will stay like that at least untill next tuesday
 
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