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Dev Diary #119 - Tours and Travel

Dev Diary #119 – Tours and Travel


Hello! My name is Chad and this is my premiere here on the forums. We’re really excited to kick off a series of dev diaries showing off all the work we have put into Tours and Tournaments. To briefly reiterate a bit of what was covered in @rageair ’s last dev diary, the Tours & Tournaments Expansion will provide a comprehensive rework of the Activity system. Not only have we reworked Feasts, Hunts, and Pilgrimages, but we have added brand spanking new Grand Activities: Tours (also in this dev diary), Tournaments, and Grand Weddings! Along with this rework comes the new Travel System (which I’ll be talking about in more detail today) and the long-awaited Regencies feature–both free additions. You can expect to hear more about all these additions in subsequent dev diaries!

Please note the standard disclaimer that all images are of things currently in development and are subject to change before release.

Travel​


As we said in last week’s dev diary, we want to reinforce the connection between the character and the map. And what’s the best way to do that? Travel.

Every character in the game now has a bonafide Location. With the new Travel Mechanic in place, every character travels to activities that aren’t held in their current location (including the AI). Whenever you plan a Grand Tournament or accept an invitation to your vassal’s Feast, you now also have decisions to make about how you get there. Will you be daring and choose a dangerous route or play it safe? Who will you hire as your Caravan Master to ensure the journey goes smoothly?

The Basics: Speed, Safety, Danger​

Every Travel Plan has two basic stats: Speed and Safety. Speed is represented by a percentage, where 100% is standard (roughly similar to army movement speed). To no one’s surprise, this affects how fast a character moves from province to province. Safety is a value ranging from 1 to 100 and counteracts Danger.

You can expect to encounter a dazzling array of situations as you travel across the map. Perhaps you will encounter a hermit living among the wilderness…

Travel_1_Event_Hermit.png

[Image: Event where you encounter a hermit]

Or perhaps you’ll meet someone from a different culture who can speak your native tongue…
Travel_2_Event_Culture.png

[Image: Event where you encounter someone from faraway who can speak your native language]

Or maybe you will even chance upon a knight-errant and convince them to join your entourage?
Travel_3_Event_Knight_Errant.png

[Image: Event where you encounter a knight-errant]

Danger lurks in every corner of the map. Every province has a Danger score based on a variety of factors like terrain, county control, owner, et cetera. Traveling through the mountains might expose you to treacherous cliffs, while sailing the seas presents its own, unique hazards, for example.

Travel_4_Event_Danger_Mountains.png

[Image: Event where one of your entourage members falls from a cliff in mountainous terrain]

Travel_5_Event_Danger_Sea.png

[Image: Event where you encounter a squall destroys your sails while traveling at sea]

There are also several dynamic factors that affect how dangerous provinces are. For example, Holdings decrease Danger while any army activity (sieges, battle, raiding) greatly increase danger. While there is always a possibility of encountering Danger, a well-prepared traveler who invests in their Safety will encounter dangerous events far less frequently.

So how do I prepare to set out on the open road? Glad you asked, let’s take a look at the brand new Travel Planner.

Travel_6_Planner.png

[Image: Example of planning to travel for a Pilgrimage]

Caravan Master​

Along with the Travel System, we introduce the Caravan Master as a new Court Position. The Caravan Master is the face of your journey and handles all the banal, practical aspects to traveling. Hiring a skilled character will increase both your Speed and Safety while providing some passive bonuses to Army Movement Speed, Supply Limit, and Court Grandeur.

Travel_7_Caravan_Master.png

[Image: Selection window for choosing a Caravan Master court position]

Travel Options​

Every time you set out on a journey, you have the chance to pick 2 Travel Options. These additional features provide a range of possible bonuses when added to your travel.

Travel_8_Options.png

[Image: Selection screen for choosing Travel Options]

Most Travel Options have an associated cost for the benefits they provide. Hiring Experienced Sea Captains will add a salty sea dog to your Entourage, thus making your journey across open water safer. Some are unlocked by Buildings in your domain or your character’s Traits. To illustrate, if you have built Stables or Camelries up to level 4 or higher, you can unlock the Superior Mounts Travel Option and get a nice boost to Speed. It costs nothing, of course, since you own the Stables already.

Travel_9_Options_Mounts.png

[Image: Superior Mounts Travel Option]

Another example is the Train Knights Travel Option, which is unlocked by having Military Academies built in your domain. When selected, 3 of your least-skilled Knights are added to your Entourage. It increases your Safety and there is a chance for each Knight to increase their skills along the journey.

Travel_10_Options_Train_Knights.png

[Image: Train Knights Travel Option]

While it’s not required to select Travel Options (especially for short journeys), they can prove quite useful when setting out on a longer journey, such as a Pilgrimage. This is also a way to affect which characters join your Entourage, the group of characters who travel at your side. Some characters, such as your Court Physician and Bodyguard, will automatically join your Entourage if you employ those Court Positions. Otherwise, your Entourage is primarily composed of characters relevant to the Activity to which you are traveling. Your Knights will join you for Tournaments, for example.

Custom Route Editor​

When planning a journey, you will always be presented with the shortest path towards your destination. But perhaps you really don’t want to travel through your Rival’s lands or maybe you’ve always wanted to see the splendor of Rome? Well fear not, for we have included a Custom Route Editor!

Travel_11_Custom_Route_Editor.png

[Image: Example of adding waypoints to a journey via the Custom Route Editor]

We allow you to customize your route by adding waypoints along your path. If employed cunningly, you may be able to avoid assassins hired by your Nemesis or gaze up at Caesar’s Needle from the hallowed streets of Rome.

Additional Notes​

Since Travel inevitably touches nearly every aspect of the game, I figured I’d spend some time here at the end attempting to answer a few questions that are sure to arise.

The focus for this expansion has been to create a Travel System that will specifically work for getting characters to and from Activities. With that said, we’ve endeavored to make this system as flexible as possible for future work and iterations–which is why it’s a free feature. The Travel Mechanic has also been integrated into smaller activities such as Meet Peers, Grand Blot, and Grand Rite. We are currently working on integrating the mechanic into more game systems.

Some Schemes are still completable while you or your Target is traveling. For example, you can still sway a character or attempt to learn their language while either of you are traveling. You cannot, however, attempt to seduce someone who is not in your location. (The power of letters only goes so far…) These Schemes will be frozen until both characters are no longer traveling.

I know you’re all eager for things like trade routes–so are we! That won’t be coming in this expansion, but it is something we have our eye on for the future.

Tours​

Hello hello hello, I am Meka66 and it has been a while since I was last able to write a dev diary, way back in my Hearts of Iron days. Today I'm here to talk to you about Grand Tours!

What is a tour? Well, more broadly a Grand Tour is your opportunity to use the travel system to hold royal visits across your realm; bringing you closer to your direct vassals and giving you the opportunity to get closer to sub-realms usually in your periphery, yielding powerful rewards to help you manage your unruly subjects; both noble and lowborn.
placeholder-art.png

The art in this screen is placeholder until we get our more complete gorgeous art.

Primarily, you will be visiting vassals, choosing from one of three things to do on your visit: Tour the Grounds, Attend a Dinner, or Attend a Cultural Festival. Each of these will yield different rewards both for the realm you're visiting and for yourself personally. Let's start with Tour the Grounds.
route-planning.png

Here you can plan your route around your kingdom

Stops​

Tour the Grounds​

tour-arrival.png

Arrival at a Tour of the Grounds, the layout of this window is still being worked on.

When Touring the Grounds of your vassal's holding, you're having a look around at daily life in your vassal's capital; visiting the village, hanging around their holding, and exploring their hunting grounds. Overall this results in a boost in Control in counties within your vassal's realm, since it is difficult to ignore the authority of the King when he's right on your doorstep.
vassal-control.png

One of many opportunities to raise control in your vassal's holdings

You'll also have opportunities to boost your prestige and renown, by flexing your hunting skills on your dear vassals.
hunting-skills.png

An opportunity here to show off your hunting skills

Hosted Dinner​

dinner-arrival.png

Arriving at a dinner

Next up we have the Hosted Dinner. The dinner is much like a feast, but far more intimate. The dinner will give you opportunities to not only share some time with your vassal and form friendships and gain hooks, but it is also an opportunity to interfere with their court; offering their courtiers a better life in the capital, becoming the guardian for your vassal's heir, and discovering secrets at your vassal's court.
hook-opportunity.png

One of many opportunities you have to make friends, learn secrets, and gain hooks.

Cultural Festival​

culture-festival.png

Arriving at a Cultural Festival in Sweden. A true oxymoron if ever there was one.

Lastly we have my personal favorite, the Cultural Festival. A realm is typically made up of all sorts of people belonging to different faiths and cultures, and what better way to demonstrate the magnanimousness of your rule than to experience the strange traditions of your subjects? If you're a highly diverse realm like Khazaria or a stranger in a strange land like a Norman invader, this is an excellent opportunity to get some powerful bonuses to cultural acceptance.
cultural-acceptance.png

Spreading cultural acceptance around your realm by showing your subjects you embrace their traditions. Here we have the Emperor visiting a Bulgarian nativity play.

But no culture is a monolith of course, and Cultural Festivals can still yield powerful rewards even if you're visiting a county of your own culture. Showing your respect for the customs of folks outside of the capital will result in potent popular opinion gains, allowing you to bring your unruly subjects in line.
culture-festival-rewards.png

Same-culture festivals still yield powerful rewards.

The Tour Planner​

Your tour consists of several stops across your realm, with one of the above activities taking place at each location. Here we have our beloved Byzantine Emperor planning a tour of his realm; having dinners with his powerful vassals, touring the grounds of his distant subjects, and observing the local culture of his Armenian and Bulgarian subjects.
byzantine-route.png

A roundabout route of the Byzantine Empire

A Travelling Court​

But visiting nobles isn't the only thing you're doing on your tour, of course. You are traveling with your court! On your journey, you'll get a chance to meet with your lowliest of subjects, and what you do with them exactly is up to you! You may encounter drunkards muttering of rebellion in a tavern, or be accosted by highwaymen on the road. While most travel events are just about things that happen on your journey, a tour travel event is an opportunity to remind the commoners that their liege is ever present.

To this effect, we have several Intents. Intents in Tours determine what exactly it is you hope to do with commoners while on the road; do you want to show charity, assert your authority, or just drink and visit brothels on your merry way across your realm?
intent-selection.png

Here we have the intent selection screen, which can be changed at any time before or during your tour!

We'll start with the more stone-faced intents: Altruism and Justice.

The Altruism intent is inspired much by the concept of both charity and the Royal Touch; the belief that Kings had the power to heal the sick just with their touch. On an Altruistic route across your realm, you will show your piousness and generosity to your realm; giving piety, popular opinion, and stress loss with the right traits (compassionate, zealous, etc).
altruistic-opportunity.png

An altruistic opportunity to show you are not disgusted by your subjects… or not

Justice is your chance to remind commoners that the crown is ever-present, and you can show justice, whatever it may mean to you. This can include judging local trials, meeting with peasant leaders, and sending in your men to clear out bandits. Justice results in stress loss for the appropriate traits, and some chances to fill your dungeon and increase control along your route.
crowns-justice.png

A chance to bring the Crown's justice to the countryside

Lustful characters can also benefit from the Lechery intent, giving them the opportunity to seek out new paramours on the road and pay visits to local brothels to reduce their stress and find new lovers. If you're a player who enjoys lustful content, this intent is for you; otherwise, the lechery intent is entirely opt-in. What you want to get out of your tour is up to you!
violet-woods.png

This intent can be particularly useful if your spouse is unable to give you an heir

Lastly we have the Relax intent, which is the default. In this intent, you just want to use your time on the road to visit taverns and take it easy on your tour, giving you large gains in stress reduction.
sin-den.png

There are all manner of ways to reduce stress on your Tour.

Tour Type​

But there is more! What primarily motivates your tour is determined by your Tour Type, of which we have three: Majesty, Taxation, and Intimidation. These options will determine what exactly it is you demand from your vassals when you stop by for a visit, is it just to show how much of a great ruler you are? Or is it to extract taxes? To strike fear into your unruly subjects?

A Majesty Tour is all about vassal opinion and prestige. During your visits, you will show your grace and magnificence to all.
majesty.png


A Taxation Tour is all about finding those little loopholes and oversights your vassals have been taking advantage of and tying them up, and taking what is rightfully yours. You may cause some upset, but it's all worth it to fill the treasury, right?
taxation.png


Intimidation Tours are all about showing how much your vassals should fear you. You'll get chances to do all manner of things to unsettle your subject. Direct confrontation can be a powerful tool, and can even motivate some vassals to leave their hostile factions against you.
intimidation.png


Which Tour type are you most interested in trying first? We would love to hear your thoughts!

Each time you perform an action which corresponds with your selected tour type, it will increase this tour success bar here. The rewards you get at the end of your tour will scale and change depending on just how successful you've been in achieving your goals, and if done right, it can be a powerful tool for strengthening and stabilizing your realm.
majesty-success.png

Here we have the Majesty success bar

Tours are a big investment in both time and money, but they also yield powerful and long lasting rewards; everything from cultural acceptance to control to dread to prestige, a tour is an all-encompassing realm management tool, taking your court on the road and bringing the presence of the crown wherever it is needed.

That's all for now, we'll be around to answer questions as always. See you next week where we'll talk about some of the smaller-but-broader systemic changes we've made to vassals, buildings, men-at-arms, and more!
 
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Not every mechanic that gives those bonuses are buff farms that make the game easier, no.

For example a random event giving one of those buffs is not farmable, because it is random.

But having a feast/hunt once every few years that tends to give extra vassal opinion or prestige or stress decrease is farmable and does make the game easier than if you otherwise could not press the feast/hunt button every time it has cooled down.

How about the other actions that can give the player gold, prestige, vassal option or dread? Investing in buildings? Gifting gold to vassals? Blackmailing characters? Executing prisoners? Negotiating vassal contracts? Do you see those as buff farms?

If not - and, I assume you don’t - why?
 
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Am going off what people in this thread have said that the dev was surprised about. I never mentioned anything about ALL players. The particular post the dev made about tours being option has overwhelmingly negative feedback showing they "respectively disagree". Feedback provided by... players.
People who have read and hit a button responding to a particular dev post =/= a significant portion of the player base, so much so that the devs should implement their proposed changes in order to increase sales. ;)
 
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Basically anything that is a planned type of event. Consider the "Hold Court" decision, that will probably still be one where your vassals will "teleport" to you. They can't really plan travel to go see you as they never know when you're going to press the button. Unless they make the event happen a week or more after you activate the decision.
Which was how Tournaments were handled in CK2. You'd press the button, the Game would say "This is the time", and the tournament would happen maybe a month later...
 
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How about the other actions that can give the player gold, prestige, vassal option or dread? Investing in buildings? Gifting gold to vassals? Blackmailing characters? Executing prisoners? Negotiating vassal contracts? Do you see those as buff farms?

I'll just point out I never originally called this process a "buff farm" until after you mentioned it.

The point I was making is that there is little reason to use the tours mechanic other than collecting some bonuses when you feel its appropriate. It makes an already unchallenging situation even less challenging by boosting your character a bit more. Also the mechanic as it stands could be tweaked in ways that people have suggested throughout this thread to make it more meaningful, impactful and add challenge to the game.

If that's what we mean by "buff farm" lets see how it applies to each point you raised;

(1) Investing in buildings - provides buffs when appropriate. Not a farmable because once a building is built you can only upgrade it a limited number of times, also restricted by technology and gold, meaning you cannot really use it to quickly boost your kingdom when you feel like it. Would not class as a "buff farm" due to being a long term strategic decision, rather than a quick boost to your ruler.

(2) Gifting gold to vassal - gives a quick boost to opinion that is relatively easy to get. I'd consider this a maybe for buff farming, although I somehow don't see this one as an issue as much as feasts, hunts and optional tours. Can't put my finger on why.

(3) Executing prisoners - I absolutely see this as a "buff farm". This is something that is easily repeatable. It offers clear benefits and little drawback. You can collect a stock of prisoners no problem from wars etc. Keep them in jail. When you want some easy dread, execude a bunch of them. This is something that was nerfed in the past, but its still unreasonably effective. Makes controlling your realm way too easy. When your ruler dies, execute a load of prisoners with your new ruler and you have an easy transition. In Ck2 a ruler dying was one of the most worrisome and exciting parts of the game. You never knew how things were going to go and they often went bad. In Ck3 its an easy to manage situation because of, among others things, executing prisoners (one notable exception is if your new ruler is compassionate, which makes executing difficult).

(4) Blackmailing characters - too random. Requires you to find secrets on a particular character, which might not even exist. Not easily repeatable. Not a "buff farm".

(5) Negotiating vassal contracts - there are drawbacks in terms of opinion. Not really repeatable. You actually have to weigh up your decision sometimes. There are times when I have had to lose gold or whatever in order to improve a vassals opinion. Not farmable, not clearly a one sided buff.

Btw, I'm not against any of these mechanics existing. Just how some are implemented. Executing prisoners being an obvious one out of the above list. Another mechanic that makes the game easy due to the way it is implements, that is not mentioned above, are lifestyle trees. Not going to make too long post a about those here because its going off topic, but I think it is far too easy for every ruler to go down whatever lifestyle tree they want, meaning you can easily gather whatever bonuses you need to rule your realm in the way that is needed to overcome any challenge. A small change to those to make it much more difficult for say a diplomatic ruler to go down the learning tree would make an incredible difference to the game I think. The lifestyle tree mechanic is a great addition to the game, the ability for everyone to go down any tree no problem is not such a great thing.


If not - and, I assume you don’t - why?

Why assume I don't? Seems my responses are mixed lol
 
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People who have read and hit a button responding to a particular dev post =/= a significant portion of the player base, so much so that the devs should implement their proposed changes in order to increase sales. ;)
Also I feel like I should mention that a good chunk of the intial negative reception to T&T seems to have been a knee-jerk reaction from people who didn't like RC and were worried that they were simply getting more of the same.
Also also, I feel like gauging "community response" to anything with this game is a bit tricky ATM. From where I'm standing the playerbase seems to be split into something like a half-dozen competing factions who all want different things to take priority (Byzantine rework, bring back playable republics, nomad mechanics, etc.) and tend to treat anything that isn't that as something negative.
 
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The point I was making is that there is little reason to use the tours mechanic other than collecting some bonuses when you feel its appropriate.

I guess my point is that maintaining a healthy amount of gold, prestige, dread and vassal option (in varying combinations, depending on playstyle) is a fairly central and standard part of playing CK3 - and many mechanics exist that give the player multiple routes to gaining those things - so I don’t understand why so many people see tours as uniquely bad in that regard.

We know taxation tours come with a vassal opinion malus, we know that tours cost money that scales with realm size, we know that tours include the risk of negative event outcomes and we know that success/reward of the tour is determined by what happens during the tour - presumably forcing us to choose sub-optimal tour event choices if we want the tour to be a success/provide a decent sized and reward. To me, that sounds like a mechanic that offers an interesting choice between itself and other gold, dread, vassal option or prestige-providing mechanics, with its own unique advantages, disadvantages, risks and rewards compared those other mechanics - not something that you simply click to get a reward every time the cool-down (if there is one) hits zero.
 
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Also I feel like I should mention that a good chunk of the intial negative reception to T&T seems to have been a knee-jerk reaction from people who didn't like RC and were worried that they were simply getting more of the same.

I think there’s a bit of that. The first dev diary had a lot of people leaping to the conclusion that tours were going to operate like “Hold Court” - and many of the criticisms of tours in this thread feel like people are still operating under last week’s assumption despite this dev diary showing that the tours are very different.
 
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You appear to be assuming that you speak for the majority of CK3 players, and know more than the devs about their players, their sales, and their business, when this is obviously not the case.

Personally, I would find your argument more persuasive if you limited yourself to arguing about what you would prefer, instead of taking the stance that all players agree with you, when this is far from the fact.
At least within this thread (or even forum), people generally like the idea but want more challenge. Ok, I'll agree, that only a fraction of players is present on the forum, let alone active
But adding vassals' opinion malus **as an optional rule** would be a good compromise between hardcore and casual players
 
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At least within this thread (or even forum), people generally like the idea but want more challenge. Ok, I'll agree, that only a fraction of players is present on the forum, let alone active
But adding vassals' opinion malus **as an optional rule** would be a good compromise between hardcore and casual players
I think that adding a game rule for vassal opinion in general would be a good idea. Settings could be "Forgiving", "Normal", and "Harsh", or something along those lines, It could affect baseline opinion, but also things like rate of decay for opinion bonuses/maluses, effectiveness of bribes, etc.
 
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I think there's some confusion about what a tour is here. Travel and Tours are different things. Travel is the broad concept of characters moving from point A to point B on the map, which is talked about in the first half.

A Grand Tour is an activity which uses the travel system extensively. It is about visiting your subjects. This does not mean you won't be able to Travel to your liege under different circumstances :)
I guess that can be a legitimate distinction. I kinda think they both merged a bit more in history though. You may be travelling to see your vassals on the way to see your liege for example.

I would really really like to see petitioning my liege involving some serious travel though, possibly with a bonus for having recently toured myself, showing my skills as a dutiful magistrate.
 
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I would really really like to see petitioning my liege involving some serious travel though, possibly with a bonus for having recently toured myself, showing my skills as a dutiful magistrate.
A petty queen thought, that petitioning her liege-grandmother was a good idea, but both had a wolf travel event.
 
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I think that adding a game rule for vassal opinion in general would be a good idea. Settings could be "Forgiving", "Normal", and "Harsh", or something along those lines, It could affect baseline opinion, but also things like rate of decay for opinion bonuses/maluses, effectiveness of bribes, etc.
I was thinking something along those lines might be good too
 
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Dev Diary Day!

Excited to find out what everyone’s going to be angry and arguing about for the next seven days!

My guess? Weddings - “marriage is optional and therefore an overpowered buff farm players will use on cooldown” and “marriage is like ‘Hold Court’ for a reason that some people are very certain about but can’t seem to explain - and therefore will never be used unless a new mechanic forces players to use it”
 
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Dev Diary Day!

Excited to find out what everyone’s going to be angry and arguing about for the next seven days!

My guess? Weddings - “marriage is optional and therefore an overpowered buff farm players will use on cooldown” and “marriage is like ‘Hold Court’ for a reason that some people are very certain about but can’t seem to explain - and therefore will never be used unless a new mechanic forces players to use it”
Ditto! Best things about Tuesday is the new Dev Diary!
 
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Dev Diary Day!

Excited to find out what everyone’s going to be angry and arguing about for the next seven days!

My guess? Weddings - “marriage is optional and therefore an overpowered buff farm players will use on cooldown” and “marriage is like ‘Hold Court’ for a reason that some people are very certain about but can’t seem to explain - and therefore will never be used unless a new mechanic forces players to use it”
I understand that this is deliberate exaggeration (and basically trolling), but comments like this completely miss the point. In one post Meka66 gave war as an example of optional mechanics. If anyone is serious about this, they clearly don't understand what's going on. So try playing the game without weddings and war, I don't think you'll be playing for long. That's the point, to have complex mechanics that work together, that are well integrated into the game and are necessary for the gaming experience.

But OK, let's leave it. It's been discussed all week, and in the end it was completely pointless anyway, because so many people don't understand or don't want to understand it. I'm looking forward to the new DD, and I'm curious to see what controversial information that we can discuss all next week will contain this time. Maybe it will indeed be a reworking of weddings to make them completely optional so that players don't feel restricted and forced to use this mechanic, because that's something terrible. :)
 
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Here’s what we can expect today:

“See you next week where we'll talk about some of the smaller-but-broader systemic changes we've made to vassals, buildings, men-at-arms, and more!”
 
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I understand that this is deliberate exaggeration (and basically trolling), but comments like this completely miss the point. In one post Meka66 gave war as an example of optional mechanics. If anyone is serious about this, they clearly don't understand what's going on. So try playing the game without weddings and war, I don't think you'll be playing for long. That's the point, to have complex mechanics that work together, that are well integrated into the game and are necessary for the gaming experience.

But OK, let's leave it. It's been discussed all week, and in the end it was completely pointless anyway, because so many people don't understand or don't want to understand it. I'm looking forward to the new DD, and I'm curious to see what controversial information that we can discuss all next week will contain this time. Maybe it will indeed be a reworking of weddings to make them completely optional so that players don't feel restricted and forced to use this mechanic, because that's something terrible. :)

I think you might be misinterpreting my comment. It was a joke about the last seven day’s discussion.
 
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I think you might be misinterpreting my comment. It was a joke about the last seven day’s discussion.
Yes, I know, it was a joke about the arguments of people complaining about the implementation of tours. I was just pointing out that the joke misses the point. I was also joking about the arguments of people who don't want to have mechanics "forced" on them.
 
Yes, I know, it was a joke about the arguments of people complaining about the implementation of tours. I was just pointing out that the joke misses the point. I was also joking about the arguments of people who don't want to have mechanics "forced" on them.

I'm still not 100% sure I understood what your point was - but let's leave it. As you say, we'll have a whole load of new stuff to argue about in the next 15 minutes :D

EDIT:

15 minutes was too optimistic :(
 
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