Dev Diary #132 – Eccentricity & Adoption

[Flockingbird]

I’m still reading the diary, but am posting this now as otherwise I’ll forget: in the adoption example, the letter is both addressed to and signed by “Abd al-Aziz.” Do both characters have the same name, or is there a mistake here?

Skimmed the comments and didn’t see this question; sorry if I missed it!

 

[CassCD]

I don't think a person with Aspergers would be likely to introduce the Pants Act or fling a cat from a catapult.

I beg your pardon. Maybe I'm just an eccentric Aspie, but I would ABSOLUTELY do those things if I could.

 

[killerduck49]

hey good sir/maddam/thy i have autism and i would like to have that trait if you want i cant discuss it further with what i think could be a part of that trait furthermore could you allso add Hillerød as a barony that can be build cause was a city that has been used by manny kings in the late medival times if i remember my history right

 

[FleetingRain]

I know I'll sound annoying, but I'd still very much rather the catapult event was made less... nonsensical. Yes, I get Eccentric is the lol so randum xD trait, but the event still feels too wacky.

Then again, I was also greatly against a game rule for silly events (either make them fit or don't add them at all), so I know I'm the minority here.

 

[Arilou]

Adopting someone can upset your potential heirs since they now have to share their inheritance with this new kid in the family, especially if the adopted child is older than them. Adopting does also come at a prestige and renown cost (piety too if you're adopting a child of a different faith), but this cost is reduced by the Noble Adoption cultural tradition.

There is no Adopted trait since any modifiers attached to such a trait would be highly contextual and cultural, but rulers can choose to adopt the child and disinherit them at the same time, if they so desire.

I feel like adopting a child and converting it to your faith should come with a piety boost, if anything. At least for Muslims/christians.

 

[Flockingbird]

I read this too fast and thought you want "easily offended" as a trait.

Now I want “easily offended” as a regular (not stress-related) trait! Though I notice that dictionary.com has ‘irritable’ as the top-listed synonym for ‘easily offended,’ and Irritable is already in-game. So I’d guess we’re not likely to get ’easily offended.’

 

[algerwie]

well to islam adopt is iligal to asheria canot be member the house dynasty
this is historical

 

[Sian]

While very much in the tail-end of the game period, an obvious candidate to model some of it around would be Eric of Pomerania, who as the heir to his fathers dukedom, was adopted by his grandmothers sister (Queen Margeret)

 

[pengoyo]

As someone with a mod all about adoption (and another relating to same-sex marriage), I'm very glad to see the vanilla adoption mechanic will be more fleshed out.

While not adoption per se, I do hope there is content related to West African fosterage. It's an interesting topic that nicely overlaps with the theme of Wards and Wardens.

Can the restrictions be loosened?​

Absolutely! Adoption comes with three new game rules that can forbid it or make it easier!

Reading the Always Allowed game rule text, does mean same-sex marriages also have a dominant partner? I really hope that is the case as my mods currently have to do a lot of workarounds to get there to be a dominant partner in same-sex marriages.

When you adopt a child, they become part of your house and you become their father/mother. The game already has a behind-the-scenes "real" father, and a "real" mother has been introduced for adoption. "Real" in CK terms refers to a child's biological lineage and it doesn't show up on the family tree except in the case of bastardry and such.

So glad real_mother is being added! This will solve my Adoption Options mod's problem with inbreeding. It's one of the things I couldn't find a proper work around for.

Adopting someone can upset your potential heirs since they now have to share their inheritance with this new kid in the family, especially if the adopted child is older than them. Adopting does also come at a prestige and renown cost (piety too if you're adopting a child of a different faith), but this cost is reduced by the Noble Adoption cultural tradition.

There is no Adopted trait since any modifiers attached to such a trait would be highly contextual and cultural, but rulers can choose to adopt the child and disinherit them at the same time, if they so desire.

I think the diversity of cultural views on adoption, which I agree presents a problem, could potentially be handled by different cultural traditions applying different modifiers to a common adopted trait. And a trait seems a useful trigger for events related to being adopted.

You will become their new father, but not their biological father. I believe their existing mother will still be considered their mother, but I'm not sure. In any case, because we make the distinction in code between biological parents and effective parents, the child won't be considered a product of yourself and their old parent.

Adoption is something you do individually, not as a couple, so your spouse does not become their new mother.

Hope that clarifies

They are two separate things. "Mother" is the person who you consider to be your familial mother, "real mother" is merely the person who birthed you. Real mother is not typically displayed, nor is real father. In terms of modability, you can mod the interaction to your heart's content, but the game does not support having several mothers and fathers, beyond the distinction between familial and biological if that makes sense.

So still no support for having two effective fathers or mothers. I understand that would be a lot of work to implement, but I do hope it happens eventually. Also would be nice to have a way to remove a parent and/or house from a character.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Again Incitatus would be made a consul!

There are three theories about that. One is Caligua was insane. Another was belittling the office, which had little real power but was a great honorific. Third was the whole story was fictional senatorial propaganda.

This pack is shaping to be much better than Friends and Foes.

 

[raistlin_wizard]

What about the AI adopting your family? I don't want the extended family I'm using for eugenics to suddenly be another dynasty.

 

[Andrzej2]

Once again im not satisfied with possible gamerule options.

We should have an option that only cultural traditions allow adoptions. So for example romans would be able to adopt but franks not.

And another option about who can be adopted. For example I would use Relatives only. As far as I remember even in Rome it was more common to adopt cousin, nephew etc instead of random child.

 

[pengoyo]

is not same sex marriage totally anachronistic?

That's why it's an opt-in game rule Some people enjoy the fantasy, so we enable them to do so with the game rule.

It has been in the game for a very long time now.

I definitely think the game rules is best left as an opt-in, for those that want the fantasy of wide spread same-sex unions. But I do think there is historical precedent for some more same-sex content in a normal CK3 game.

While not practiced by nobility, as far as I know, the medieval European practice of brother-making or enbrotherment could make for an interesting event (a similar practice also existed in Medieval China for when it is added to the map).

Additionally, there is an argument for Cathars having same-sex marriage. Though this is more out of their theological opposition to marriage, especially opposite-sex marriage. Though this is not something that meshes well with the CK3 play style, so not sure how best to go about this.

And not mention custom faiths should be able to allow for it, as much more out there possibilities already exist in game.

Now same-sex concubines, that there is good historical precedent for it among certain nobility. Hellenism and Taoism (or alternatively Han culture) I think are good candidates for allowing same-sex concubines (with obviously not every ruler choosing to partaking in them).

And while I'm at it, there's the whole can of worms of cultures that recognized a "third gender" like the hijras in India, the yan daudu among the Hausa, and the goor-jiggens among the Wolof. Though I think to properly portray this in game it would require the gender bending aspect of it be the focus.


Edit: there is also the tradition in Igbo culture of widows being allowed to remarry another woman. But cultures various cultural rules on women remarrying after their husband dies is a whole other can of worms.

 

[Rubidium]

Meanwhile, on a totally unrelated note:

The new pictured mental break event ("A Visitor") is an obvious (and well-done) reference to The Raven, and we already have a The Cask of Amontillado reference as a murder scheme. Clearly one of the devs is a fellow Edgar Allen Poe fan.

What is the next Poe-inspired event? The Masque of the Red Death seems like an obvious one for whenever they do a plague expansion, and I could certainly see a "The Pit and the Pendulum" reference as a Torturer-lifestyle event, but is it too much to hope for The Gold-Bug or The Purloined Letter getting a reference?

 

[Haze88]

They must not be within the realm of someone of their dynasty. Technically it could be possible if they have a great grandchild who has ended up in some distant realm, but that is somewhat unlikely. I'll toss the concern over to QA.

This has been remarkably common lately. My kids leaving my Poland kingdom to waltz through Mongolia...

 

[Werther]

But...

That, um, happened.

It's outside the era of CK, but for an obvious example, Charles XIII of Sweden adopted two unrelated male nobles as sons, as he had no legitimate heir (son)... Even though of course he had a plethora of cousins, and also an illegitimate son... Instead he and the Swedes ended up asking Jean Bernadotte (a Marshal of the Napoleonic French, and previously a very minor noble) to be his heir... Totally unrelated to him... And they picked him because, uhhh, he had treated some Swedish prisoners of war respectfully... And some random Swedish baron went "Hey come be our King!"... And he said "Yeah OK...?" Then the Swedes arrested the Baron for just doing that on his own initiative... But gradually they came around to the idea anyway... Bernadotte was of course still one of Napoleon's Marshals, so Napoleon was all "What the hell?", and he thought it was silly, but eventually he also decided "OK I guess...? Go for it..."

So it happened.

And to this day, the house of Bernadotte occupies the Swedish throne.

I am sure there are other examples of similar shenanigans happening in the Medieval era too.

You are talking about an event that happened in 1810, 400 years after the MA. During a revolutionnary period and one of the biggest Euro War. And it is 1800 Sweden, not Capetian France. Althoug adoption existed in France from the 12th century and the rediscovery of the Roman laws, it was an act of charity that was really rare and poorly accepted, and from the 13th, the law was hostile to the inheritance rights of adopted children, as they were not related by blood. And we're not talking about nobles (in any case, a adopted child cannot inherit a fiefdom) let alone the King of France, where blood succession was extrememy important (except in the 10th century... but adoption had nothing to do with it).

So yes, AI Louis IX adopting a random dude to be king of France will break my immersion (because infertile characters are not uncommon and it will probably happen). That is why it could have been a cultural tradition (or a game rule that can allow adoption but for specific culture traditions). Right now, I will turn off the game rule when I will play in western Europe to avoid this situation and it is a bit sad.

 

[lilsaihah]

> Adoption

One step closer to Romance of the Three Crusader Kingdoms

 

[Ramidel]

Speaking of which, will Noble Adoption be added to Han culture?

 

[Kapitalisti]

View attachment 1009903

 

[MahoganySpitfire]

Hey could I just add... The cat-apult event... As well as the T&T event where you get the choice to rampage through a town and kill all the cats......

...Uh. Um.

Is it possible someone maaaaybe has a bit of an issue with cats?

I get that in some instances particularly in Europe, cats were considered evil, and cats were also slaughtered on occasion. But there's much more evidence of cats being well thought of, and being kept as pets... And in the Middle East and Asia, cats were generally beloved or even revered (and still are).

In terms of actions against animals in-game, obviously there's hunts, etc. But for personal/domestic animals, the worst characters can do to a dog (AFAIK) is to kick one... Whereas characters can fling cats from catapults; or rampage through a town and kill all the cats... And... That's messed up... The town anti-cat rampage seems like something very few or no ruler would have ever engaged in personally while on a royal tour. Or just at all. It's bizarre and disturbing.

I totally think we and other game characters should be able to do absolutely depraved things to humans... I agree, humans suck, I don't like them at all, my current in-game hobby is kidnapping heads of faith and eating them, etc.

But would it be possible to refrain from outright sadistic abuse of animals? Cats seem to be the worst victims of this in-game, but I obviously mean that generally. I don't think it's good to have these events in a game. 'Minor' stuff like kicking an errant dog or cat, sure - so long as there's always a chance the animal will fight back and wound you, ok. But the deranged animal abuse events, maybe not - the only things being flung from catapults should be rocks and disease-ridden human corpses.

Also re-upping my suggestion that a "Cat Lovers" tradition for Legacy of Persia that allows characters to always have the option to adopt a kitty would be completely in line with how cats were (and remain) viewed in Middle East/Islamic society.