Dev Diary #132 – Eccentricity & Adoption

[Meka66]

1. Is it possible to adopt a bastard of my dynasty? As after 16 they will found they own dynasty and get bastard founder anyway?
2.What will happen if I adopt my secret illigitimate child that born from fornicator low-born? Will there be a gossip negative modifier or any extra penalty?
Coz this option mean I can install my illegitimate blood-related heir w/o getting labeled as an adulterer +piety level penalty.

1. No, currently you can't adopt your own children. It was talked about a bit since right now it's a little game-y that if you're playing a female ruler who was once part of a patrilineal marriage, you have to murder your own children to secure succession, but it wasn't quite within the scope of the adoption interaction. In the future though, this may change, but for now, adoption is only for non-relatives.
2. Same basic answer as point 1, you can't adopt your own children, legitimate or otherwise.

 

[Rhipeen]

When you adopt a child, they become part of your house and you become their father/mother. The game already has a behind-the-scenes "real" father, and a "real" mother has been introduced for adoption. "Real" in CK terms refers to a child's biological lineage and it doesn't show up on the family tree except in the case of bastardry and such.

I'm sorry but that didn't really answer my question of how will the parentage of said adopted child show
I'll repeat the sceneario with more detail:
imagine you're a male ruler and adopt a child (genders can be switched around but let's go with this perspective)
said child has deceased mother and deceased father
will said deceased mother still show as the child's mother after adoption when you become the new father?
In case you're married, will your partner show as the new mother instead?
In case you're not married, will the mother of the child switch to "no mother" instead?
Because if the original mother stays depicted as mother of the child, in the family tree it would show as if your male character and the child's mother did a pairing at some point even though the child clearly had real true confirmed father before, so in case of adoption, both parents should be completely "erased" which wasn't stated, which is why I am asking

 

[LucasG21]

It's nice that Compassionate people now have ways of adjusting the succession. Especially since Sadistic characters have other ways of deciding on their preferred heir.

 

[WestuHal]

Welcome back and cheers for the update, all interesting stuff.

Just a question on the Familiar Toys event, is it correct that the child has just turned 1 year old, as indicated by the event text? The references to ushering the child into a room, and the child thinking about which of the options presented to them may have belonged to an ancestor, seem to fit a child which is no longer a baby (I’m not sure, in any case, that you could meaningfully describe a baby of 12 months as being ‘eccentric’ compared to any other baby).

 

[Nekodias]

I really love that you intend to bring an adoption system into the game! Always wanted to roleplay like the roman emperors of old
I'm really excited for the pack and update to release

 

[namewhichisnottakenyet]

Something I'd like to nip in the bud quite early is that the Eccentric trait is not intended to reflect any real-world disabilities, illnesses, or neurodivergence.

So, how exactly would you describe neurodivergence, especially the rather milder cases, in the game?

Due to my personal experience, I'll take Asperger's syndrome as an example. It doesn't decrease one's intelligence nor is it detrimental enough to be considered an outright mental disability or illness, but it does cause one to behave in ways which are unusual for a given culture. That's pretty much textbook eccentricity in my opinion.

You might interject that I should not introduce modern-day sensitivities around neurodivergence into a medieval era game, and that every step on the autism spectrum would just be lumped together into one category in pre-modern times.

However, we Aspies tend to hide our neurodivergence pretty effectively, especially when we have the feeling that our social surroundings would not approve of it. In my case, my family didn't suspect a thing for 25 years and it just came out when I initiated the diagnosis myself.

So, basically, I think that nearly everyone on the high functioning end of the autistic spectrum, and maybe some other mild conditions with few or no symptoms which are detrimental to one's overall health or intelligence (ADHD, Tourette) would rather be interpreted as eccentricity than lunacy/possession in the medieval era.

Sorry for the rant. You could have saved yourself from this by just not mentioning the word "neurodivergence" in the DD

 

[Meka66]

I'm sorry but that didn't really answer my question of how will the parentage of said adopted child show
I'll repeat the sceneario with more detail:
imagine you're a male ruler and adopt a child (genders can be switched around but let's go with this perspective)
said child has deceased mother and deceased father
will said deceased mother still show as the child's mother after adoption when you become the new father?
In case you're married, will your partner show as the new mother instead?
In case you're not married, will the mother of the child switch to "no mother" instead?
Because if the original mother stays depicted as mother of the child, in the family tree it would show as if your male character and the child's mother did a pairing at some point even though the child clearly had real true confirmed father before, so in case of adoption, both parents should be completely "erased" which wasn't stated, which is why I am asking

You will become their new father, but not their biological father. I believe their existing mother will still be considered their mother, but I'm not sure. In any case, because we make the distinction in code between biological parents and effective parents, the child won't be considered a product of yourself and their old parent.

Adoption is something you do individually, not as a couple, so your spouse does not become their new mother.

Hope that clarifies

Welcome back and cheers for the update, all interesting stuff.

Just a question on the Familiar Toys event, is it correct that the child has just turned 1 year old, as indicated by the event text? The references to ushering the child into a room, and the child thinking about which of the options presented to them may have belonged to an ancestor, seem to fit a child which is no longer a baby (I’m not sure, in any case, that you could meaningfully describe a baby of 12 months as being ‘eccentric’ compared to any other baby).

The screenshot was achieved with console commands, the actual event under normal conditions requires that the child is older than 4 and younger than 16.

 

[WestuHal]

The screenshot was achieved with console commands, the actual event under normal conditions requires that the child is older than 4 and younger than 16.

Ah - that makes a lot more sense! Thanks for taking the time to clarify.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

is the unrestricted marriage doctrine required for adopted kids to marry there non adopted siblings?

 

[Renarin]

Would it be appropriate for the Noble Adoption tradition to remove the requirement that "they're not in the realm of someone of their dynasty" when they are being adopted by a member of their dynasty? If it's meant to represent things like the Roman practices and the like, then adopting a member of the dynasty from a different house seems appropriate, but would be blocked by this requirement.

 

[luxeritib]

"Children can be adopted as long as: they're not a ruler, they're not in prison or otherwise unavailable, nobody in their family is a ruler, they're not already part of your house, and they're not in the realm of someone of their dynasty."

Can I adopt children from my cadet branches(Same dynasty, different house)?

 

[Meka66]

So, how exactly would you describe neurodivergence, especially the rather milder cases, in the game?

If we were to tackle it, we'd do it with some other trait, modifier, or trigger and we'd approach it with far more sensitivity and research. It is also worth mentioning that Eccentric is something someone becomes, while neurodivergence is much more complex.

However, we Aspies tend to hide our neurodivergence pretty effectively, especially when we have the feeling that our social surroundings would not approve of it. In my case, my family didn't suspect a thing for 25 years and it just came out when I initiated the diagnosis myself.

Like you said, high-functioning autism is easy to mask or to go unnoticed by neurotypical people, while the Eccentric trait is much more wacky and out-there. I don't think a person with Aspergers would be likely to introduce the Pants Act or fling a cat from a catapult.

Sorry for the rant. You could have saved yourself from this by just not mentioning the word "neurodivergence" in the DD

Due to the nature of the Eccentric trait, I wanted to make absolutely clear as early as possible that this trait is not intended to represent neurodivergence such as Aspergers.

I wouldn't be opposed to approaching the topic of neurodivergence in a medieval setting in the future, but this particular trait just isn't the vehicle we wanted to use to deliver this kind of content.

 

[Gobla]

Do the 'silly' events only happen to eccentric characters or simply require another eccentric character? Or both?

Taking the cat-apult event it's not really your character acting weirdly, it's your rival behaving in a silly manner.

At the same time the impression I'm getting from the dev diary is that the trait seems meant as an option for players to avoid these sort of events (which would only be possible if it only checks your character as educating your heirs is definitely possible while educating everyone in diplomatic range definition isn't).

So I'm left a bit confused. If it checks my character it doesn't really explain why my rival is acting in such a manner while if it checks my rival it could still occur just the same and it's not really comparable to the wild wasteland trait.

 

[namewhichisnottakenyet]

You're saying that "nobody in their family must be a ruler" for them to be eligible for adoption.

Do you mean close family with this?

In that case, I suggest to change this to "none of their living ancestors must be rulers".

It's not that uncommon for an older character to have great-grandchildren, who are not part of their close family any more. And these great-grandchildren can easily be 3rd in line to inherit, oftentimes even 2nd if the older character outlives their children, or 1st if the older character is me and my son and grandson mysteriously die so I can be succeeded by a young character who can have a long reign.

In these cases it would be hilarious (if you can pull it off) or infuriating (if someone else pulls it iff on you) if someone manages to invite, abduct or otherwise force the great-grandchild into their court and adopt them - something their still very much alive and very much infuriated great-grandparent would vehemently object to, and likely would not acknowledge.

 

[Meka66]

is the unrestricted marriage doctrine required for adopted kids to marry there non adopted siblings?

I- huh. I'm not sure, but tentatively I want to say yes.

Would it be appropriate for the Noble Adoption tradition to remove the requirement that "they're not in the realm of someone of their dynasty" when they are being adopted by a member of their dynasty? If it's meant to represent things like the Roman practices and the like, then adopting a member of the dynasty from a different house seems appropriate, but would be blocked by this requirement.

Currently that's in place to prevent you from doing something like adopting an Abbassid child while he's in the realm of the Abbassid Caliph, or stealing the King of France's great-nephew or something like that. It would be quite difficult to balance otherwise.

"Children can be adopted as long as: they're not a ruler, they're not in prison or otherwise unavailable, nobody in their family is a ruler, they're not already part of your house, and they're not in the realm of someone of their dynasty."

Can I adopt children from my cadet branches(Same dynasty, different house)?

Technically possible, but somewhat unlikely. You can't be an ancestor of the child, so you can't adopt great-great-grandchildren or anything like that, but if they're some random cousin's cousin, then yes, you should be able to adopt them.

 

[Meka66]

Do the 'silly' events only happen to eccentric characters or simply require another eccentric character? Or both?

Taking the cat-apult event it's not really your character acting weirdly, it's your rival behaving in a silly manner.

At the same time the impression I'm getting from the dev diary is that the trait seems meant as an option for players to avoid these sort of events (which would only be possible if it only checks your character as educating your heirs is definitely possible while educating everyone in diplomatic range definition isn't).

So I'm left a bit confused. If it checks my character it doesn't really explain why my rival is acting in such a manner while if it checks my rival it could still occur just the same and it's not really comparable to the wild wasteland trait.

It depends entirely on the event. If the event is about someone else acting strange, then it checks their traits. If it's about you acting strange or something strange happening to you, it happens to you. Perhaps wild wasteland was a bad example, it really is most similar to CK2 lunacy.

You're saying that "nobody in their family must be a ruler" for them to be eligible for adoption.

Do you mean close family with this?

In that case, I suggest to change this to "none of their living ancestors must be rulers".

It's not that uncommon for an older character to have great-grandchildren, who are not part of their close family any more. And these great-grandchildren can easily be 3rd in line to inherit, oftentimes even 2nd if the older character outlives their children, or 1st if the older character is me and my son and grandson mysteriously die so I can be succeeded by a young character who can have a long reign.

In these cases it would be hilarious (if you can pull it off) or infuriating (if someone else pulls it iff on you) if someone manages to invite, abduct or otherwise force the great-grandchild into their court and adopt them - something their still very much alive and very much infuriated great-grandparent would vehemently object to, and likely would not acknowledge.

It is close or extended family, so no cousins, grandparents, siblings, etc.

This is mostly as a safety net to prevent players from adopting in a way that disrupts the succession of other realms, basically we don't want any living rulers to be annoyed to find that suddenly their attractive genius grandchild is now part of some dynasty in another realm.

 

[grzegorz444]

So, you can adopt only children not adult person ?
If so, that not really useful for gameplay

IMO it would be work bettet if for example ruler has only daughters, adopt promising figure and marry them with his daughter ensuring a smooth succession. Historically it was IN FACT done when daughter inherits but her spouse ruled

 

[Omaew]

1. No, currently you can't adopt your own children. It was talked about a bit since right now it's a little game-y that if you're playing a female ruler who was once part of a patrilineal marriage, you have to murder your own children to secure succession, but it wasn't quite within the scope of the adoption interaction. In the future though, this may change, but for now, adoption is only for non-relatives.
2. Same basic answer as point 1, you can't adopt your own children, legitimate or otherwise.

1.I was not actually refering to my own bastard but someone else's in my house/dynasty. When your dynasty is at 200+ there will be a lot of them . But I guess as long as they are your kins you can't adopt them?
2.In RP sense, my secret bastards are not known as my bastards though.
But reading another of your Answer, I assume real father and adopted father have to be different people regardless.

 

[namewhichisnottakenyet]

Like you said, high-functioning autism is easy to mask or to go unnoticed by neurotypical people, while the Eccentric trait is much more wacky and out-there. I don't think a person with Aspergers would be likely to introduce the Pants Act or fling a cat from a aatapult.

Well, okay, maybe it's just a me thing that my go-to method of masking Asperger's is to frame it as eccentricity.

Just saying, being able to have an outside view of one's host culture due to a social disconnect is pretty helpful to behave in eccentric, i.e. socially unusual ways... It's just that, at least to me, it's the host culture which behaves erraticly and illogically.

(Seriously, who goes to an overcrowded tent buying ridiculous amounts of overprized liquid neurotoxin until like 3 am for several weeks in a row even though they have to work the next/same day? Oh, just THE ENTIRETY OF BAVARIA? Ok, I'm northern German so you could argue that that's not really my host culture, but there are similar customs in the north, they're just less well-known)

 

[Meka66]

So, you can adopt only children not adult person ?
If so, that not really useful for gameplay

IMO it would be work bettet if for example ruler has only daughters, adopt promising figure and marry them with his daughter ensuring a smooth succession. Historically it was IN FACT done when daughter inherits but her spouse ruled

Adult adoption and adoption by way of marriage is something we may tackle in the future but it was not part of the scope of this interaction. What you're describing would be more akin to a checkbox in the arrange marriage interaction which would require its own caveats and considerations, like trying to make the game not consider the relationship incestuous, not adopting prominent nobles through marriage, etc.

May be done in the future, but not via this particular interaction.

1.I was not actually refering to my own bastard but someone else's in my house/dynasty. When your dynasty is at 200+ there will be a lot of them . But I guess as long as they are your kins you can't adopt them?
2.In RP sense, my secret bastards are not known as my bastards though.
But reading another of your Answer, I assume real father and adopted father have to be different people regardless.

Ah I see, in the case of 1 then, you can adopt them as long as they fall within the conditions of any other potentially adopted child. If they're a bastard of a different house and they're not your grandkids or anything, you can adopt them and they will lose the bastard trait upon adoption.