Dev Diary #176 - Southeast Asia

[ray243]

Hegemonic Tribute Missions​

Hello again! @lachek here, and I'm excited to once more discuss Tributaries with you! As mentioned above, tributaries were first introduced into Crusader Kings III to support nomadic gameplay with Khans of the Steppe, where they modeled the unique subject-overlord relationship between a tributary and their suzerain. On the vast expanse of Northern Asia, nomadic tributary relationships were mostly held together through military domination, either implied or by actual display of force. Nomadic rulers can demand that neighboring realms fall in line under them by building up a sizable horde, or simply go out and enforce it through warfare. Through a cascade of such relationships, enormous swathes of the plains can be held together under a single suzerain. However, they can collapse just as quickly due to migratory patterns or a foreign conqueror cutting off a key part of the chain.

We also implemented a Subjugated Tributary type available outside the steppe to represent rulers dominated by more powerful neighbors and made to pay tax to their overlord.

However, none of those types adequately represent how tributary relationships functioned in either Southeast Asia or China. Therefore, we are introducing both Mandala tributaries and the Hegemonic/Celestial types (more on the distinction later), where the relationship is more contingent on one-sided respect and a gift economy.

Celestial Tributaries​

These are realms within China's sphere of influence that recognize the Emperor as the Son of Heaven and pay him a great deal of personal respect (not to speak of material wealth). In return, they are granted recognition and sovereignty by China. Unlike tributaries on the steppe, this is not primarily a military arrangement but rather a one-sided show of deference, ultimately serving both parties in the end.

This relationship can be established by either party through character interaction, but is typically initiated by the prospective tributary themselves. Once established, the tributary has few immediate obligations: a little bit of Prestige and perhaps some Gold, in exchange for which some of China's Legitimacy is conferred upon them. It's usually a beneficial arrangement for both parties, especially since any taxes paid by the tributary goes directly into the Emperor's personal coffers rather than into the treasury. This makes it one of the few sources of direct income the Emperor has available for his own discretionary projects. Over time, the Emperor may decide to impose further standing obligations on some of their tributaries. Any increase in taxation or prestige transfer also comes with closer ties to China, however, thereby increasing legitimacy for the subject.

However, Celestial Tributaries are also expected to Kowtow to the Son of Heaven on a regular basis, bringing immense riches and gifts with them to reaffirm their deference and respect. This is fundamentally the same kind of Tribute Mission as in Mandala realms, with a few modifications. Unlike in Mandala realms, the Chinese Emperor always has some minimum expectation regarding the size of tribute, depending on the esteem in which the tributary is already held. This is tracked by a metric we call Imperial Grace, which serves several purposes:

• It acts as a timer on how frequently you are expected to pay tribute; if you're only able to bring the bare necessities and wait until the last moment to reaffirm your respect, the Emperor might start to demand more frequent visits. Highly successful missions give you a longer grace period until your presence is once again expected.
• It gives you an opportunity to adjust your relationship depending on what kind of tributary you want to be. Do you pay only nominal respect when absolutely required, just so China will overlook you when assessing their borders? Or are you a devoted subject looking for a closer relationship?
• The decay rate of Imperial Grace increases during unstable periods of the Dynastic Cycle, reflecting the uncertainty of these times. Will you contribute to sustaining the ruling dynasty of China's legitimacy during troubles times, or seize on this moment to break the agreement and try to claim a piece of the pie for yourself?
• As a Celestial Tributary you can quite readily adjust your own tributary contract's obligations, but changing it in your favor costs an amount of Imperial Grace.

Finally, at very high levels of Imperial Grace, the Emperor might decide to make China's relationship with its subject more permanent through the granting of a Seal of Investiture. This is an enduring artifact (regalia type, which can be reforged into a court artifact if you wish) that gives access to special privileges not usually available to subjects of China.

Trade Access: This privilege grants the tributary access to the domestic markets of the Chinese capital, resulting in a gradual closing of the development gap between the two realms' capital provinces. A low-development tributary enjoying this privilege could potentially propel itself to wealth and power compared to their less privileged neighbors within a few generations.

Family Access: This privilege negates the usual high acceptance maluses for marrying into the Chinese imperial dynasty, and even grants a small bonus to such dynastic intermingling.

Palace Access: This privilege lets the tributary's representatives roam the palace grounds, rubbing shoulders with ministers, governors, and sages in the seat of power. Tributaries with this privilege become active participants in the Dynastic Cycle and can join political movements to shape the future of China.

Once you have gained a Seal of Investiture, these become available as new contract privileges that you can activate in exchange for a one-time cost of Imperial Grace. This doesn't make the tribute missions redundant, however. The size of the bonuses you get from these scales with the degree of Imperial Grace you currently possess, so sustained tribute will only make your relationship with China more powerful.

It is important to note that a Celestial Tributary contract is a formal agreement between a realm and the Chinese Emperor. The contract is inherited upon death of either the tributary or the suzerain, but if the Hegemony title is lost then the contract will break -- even if another claimant dynasty later restores it. As long as the dynastic line is unbroken, however, accumulated Imperial Grace and the privileges that the contract yields can be maintained for centuries.

You may have noted I’ve made a distinction between Hegemonic and Celestial Tributaries above. A Celestial Tributary is a type of Hegemonic Tributary, specific to China. However, other hegemony titles (e.g. India or restored Rome) can also maintain Hegemonic Tributaries that share many similarities with Celestial ones. Instead of Imperial Grace these contracts have Subject Standing. They do not use the Seal of Investiture mechanic with its tie-ins to China-specific mechanics like difficult dynastic intermarriage or the Dynastic Cycle situation, but most other aspects of the contract work in similar ways with the same dynamics. This allows Hegemony-tier titles to use the tributary mechanic not only to expand their own de facto tracts of land, but also to accept recognition and deference from select surrounding realms they find useful to their larger strategy.

I believe there's something to be fixed with celestial tributaries. It's not just Chinese emperor getting all the gifts in return for recognition and some minor benefits. Often, the Chinese emperors are also expected to grant even more valuable gifts in return.

It can be costly that in later periods China actually turned down the frequency of tributary missions because it cost more money for China than getting rewards back. To quote an article on this.


J. K. Fairbank, Tributary Trade and China's Relations with the West The Far Eastern Quarterly, Vol. 1, No. 2 (Feb., 1942), pp. 129-149

The tribute itself was no gain to the imperial court. It was supposed to consist of native produce, a symbolic offering of the fruits of the tributary country. "Things that are not locally produced are not to be presented." "Rare and strange items might be included in it, like the auspicious giraffes which were brought from Africa in the early Ming period as unicorns(ch'i-lin), omens of good fortune, but there was little benefit to the imperial treasury in anything that a tribute mission might bring. The value of the tribute objects was certainly balanced, if not out-weighed, by the imperial gifts to the various members of the mission and to the vassal ruler. The expense of a mission was not inconsiderable, but the court was repaid in kudos. Tribute was ordinarily presented at the time of a great audience at New Years, when the bureaucracy of all the empire paid reverence to the Son of Heaven and when the dramatic submission of foreign lands could most effectively reinforce the imperial prestige within China proper.

The current system is quite a bad understanding of the historical tributary missions between China and its tributaries. The tributaries actually gets a lot of financial reward directly from the emperor for paying tribute.

Tsiang, 1971:

It must not be assumed that the Chinese Court made a profit out of such tributes. The imperial gifts bestowed in return were usually more valuable than the tribute. The latter was a symbol, signifying the submissiveness of the tributary state, which obtained in return, besides the imperial gifts, the much-coveted permission to do a limited trade...On China’s part the permission to trade was intended to be a mark of imperial bounty and as a means of keeping the barbarians in the proper state of submissiveness.

Immanuel Hsu :

the tributary relations were primarily ceremonial and ritualistic, rather than exploitative. Economically, the tributary practice was a loss to China, yet its prestige value could not be overlooked.

So please, we need some major rework on the benefits and cost of the tributary system!

 

[luo]

It can be costly that in later periods China actually turned down the frequency of tributary missions because it cost more money for China than getting rewards back. To quote an article on this.


J. K. Fairbank, Tributary Trade and China's Relations with the West The Far Eastern Quarterly, Vol. 1, No. 2 (Feb., 1942), pp. 129-149

The closest of these viewpoints to modern times was already published 50 years ago in 1971, even in 1942, when the official history books and archival materials of the Chinese dynasty had not been translated into English. Therefore, many of the inferences and speculations in them seem absurd and has been proven false today. I have provided data related to tribute and first-hand records of Chinese dynasties. The following is the specific content.

This stereotype has been a backward view for many years, especially after examining the list of tribute gifts exchanged by Chinese dynasties in East Asia and Southeast Asia (mainly based on Ming Dynasty records, only because Ming Dynasty records are more detailed).

Firstly, it is necessary to clarify a clearly erroneous viewpoint: tribute countries (rather than Chinese dynasties) always hope to frequently come to pay tribute, because tribute is a way to obtain goods directly from China at a lower cost (rather than indirectly obtaining goods through Chinese or other merchants, such as silk, porcelain, tea, etc.), and obtaining goods is the main source of profit for tribute countries, rather than the gold and silver rewards given by the emperor (in fact, the emperor only rewards a small amount of copper coins).

Regarding the issue of Chinese goods, in fact, this is not a reward from the emperor, but rather a situation where tribute teams are allowed to freely trade goods within China, and the prices of silk, porcelain, tea and other goods in China are much lower than outside China, resulting in a win-win situation to some extent. The tribute country obtained rare Chinese goods by approaching the cost price of the place of origin, which can generate huge profits for both domestic use and resale. In fact, the place of origin of Chinese goods sold these goods at a higher price than the local price, resulting in more profits compared to ordinary trade. Only merchants trading in China and other regions suffered losses.

China's gift-return generally consists of several aspects: symbolic copper coins (rather than gold and silver), objects given by the emperor to the monarchs of tribute countries for use (to show the emperor's importance, usually jade or gold and silver objects), and more importantly, Chinese commodity trade qualifications (such as silk, porcelain, and tea, which is why tribute is usually considered to have trade attributes). In the Ming Dynasty, even the returned copper coins were replaced by paper currency 大明宝钞, and the emperor would forcibly claim that these paper currency had the value stated on paper (however, in fact, they were worthless waste paper due to inflation).

Paper currency had already appeared in the Song Dynasty, so it is uncertain whether the Song Dynasty would also do the same. However, due to the long-term lack of heavy metal mines (such as copper mines) in Chinese dynasties, it is difficult to consider it reasonable to reward tribute countries with a large amount of precious metals, especially since most of China's tribute countries have heavy metal mines (especially Japan, which has famous copper and silver resources). Compared to precious metal rewards, Chinese luxury goods are more valuable rewards for those tribute countries.

paper currency of Ming Dynasty 大明宝钞

paper currency of Song Dynasty 宋朝 交子

For Korea, the emperors of the Yuan and Ming dynasties even demanded a large number of horses as tribute (even though Korea produced very few horses, which was a form of exploitation by the emperor of the tribute country), which had a huge impact on Korea's national strength. However, due to the importance of luxury goods such as silk and porcelain trade, Korea remained enthusiastic about tribute.

Another example is the Japanese tribute notes during the reign of Emperor Yingzong of Ming Dynasty, which recorded 9,483 Japanese swords as tribute, each valued at 6 guan 贯 copper coins (i.e. 6,000 copper coins), but denominated in paper currency. However, the 6 guan paper currency was actually only worth 30 copper coins in the market, which was a huge loss for Japan. Nevertheless, the Chinese goods purchased by the Japanese tribute team during the tribute period brought them profits of over 90,000 guan copper coins (i.e. 90,000,000 copper coins) upon their return to Japan. (The information comes from the records of Emperor Yingzong of Ming Dynasty 明英宗实录)

Many stereotypes tend to overestimate the value of rebates in tribute to the emperor, without considering that the main item in rebates is artifacts rather than currency. They consider Chinese goods purchased by tribute groups as gifts from the emperor, and often value these goods outside of China, ignoring that these goods are not related to the emperor himself and that China, as the largest producer, only needs to calculate cost prices.

In addition, another legal provision also briefly proves that tribute is not unprofitable. According to the laws of the Ming Dynasty 大明律, if tribute vessels that have not been inspected and confirmed by the government engage in private trade, all relevant personnel will be sent to the military front line (such as Mongolia) as soldiers.

Price conversion of various commodities in Ming Dynasty tribute, pictures from the history of Chinese coastal defense 中国海防史:

One jin 斤 of tribute iron 铁 (593 grams) is estimated to be worth 3.75 copper coins, one jin 斤 of pepper 胡椒 is estimated to cost 37.5 copper coins, while a blue and white porcelain bowl 青花白瓷碗 produced in China is estimated to be worth 3,750 copper coins, and an iron pot 铁锅 produced in China is estimated to be worth 1,875 copper coins (at the same time, the price of an iron pot in the Chinese market is 100 copper coins). Data from the book about the Ming Dynasty 大明会典. Even at several tens of times the price, these goods can still generate huge profits for tribute countries when sold again (especially considering that more Western countries value silk and porcelain with gold and silver, while during the Ming Dynasty, 1 liang 两 (37.3 grams) of silver could be exchanged for 1000 to 1500 copper coins).

I have labeled the names of the first-hand materials, only a portion of the evidence is displayed here. For more information, you can directly search for these first-hand materials. I'm not sure that they all have good English translations on the Internet, but with the help of some translation tools, you can roughly understand the content. Especially the historical document of the 大明会典, which records a large amount of detailed data related to the Ming government.

 

[ray243]

The closest of these viewpoints to modern times was already published 50 years ago in 1971, even in 1942, when the official history books and archival materials of the Chinese dynasty had not been translated into English. Therefore, many of the inferences and speculations in them seem absurd and has been proven false today. I have provided data related to tribute and first-hand records of Chinese dynasties. The following is the specific content.



I have labeled the names of the first-hand materials, only a portion of the evidence is displayed here. For more information, you can directly search for these first-hand materials. I'm not sure that they all have good English translations on the Internet, but with the help of some translation tools, you can roughly understand the content. Especially the historical document of the 大明会典, which records a large amount of detailed data related to the Ming government.

Your own source makes the comments that the tributary countries did receive material and economic benefits in return, rather than it being a net-loss on the part of the tributaries.

Firstly, it is necessary to clarify a clearly erroneous viewpoint: tribute countries (rather than Chinese dynasties) always hope to frequently come to pay tribute, because tribute is a way to obtain goods directly from China at a lower cost (rather than indirectly obtaining goods through Chinese or other merchants, such as silk, porcelain, tea, etc.), and obtaining goods is the main source of profit for tribute countries, rather than the gold and silver rewards given by the emperor (in fact, the emperor only rewards a small amount of copper coins).

For Korea, the emperors of the Yuan and Ming dynasties even demanded a large number of horses as tribute (even though Korea produced very few horses, which was a form of exploitation by the emperor of the tribute country), which had a huge impact on Korea's national strength. However, due to the importance of luxury goods such as silk and porcelain trade, Korea remained enthusiastic about tribute.

My point is the tributaries also received valuable goods directly in return from the Chinese court as part of tributary missions. The idea that tributaries are only about paying gold to the Chinese emperor in return for a seal of office is not taking into account large trade items like silk and porcelains are granted back to them in exchange.

The tributary missions are not a material net-loss to the tributaries.

 

[luo]

My point is the tributaries also received valuable goods directly in return from the Chinese court as part of tributary missions. The idea that tributaries are only about paying gold to the Chinese emperor in return for a seal of office is not taking into account large trade items like silk and porcelains are granted back to them in exchange.

The tributary missions are not a material net-loss to the tributaries.

I agree, I am only opposing a small part of your viewpoint that 'China has paid a huge price on tribute'. like this:

It can be costly that in later periods China actually turned down the frequency of tributary missions because it cost more money for China than getting rewards back. To quote an article on this.

In fact, as I mentioned in my response, the tribute countries have benefited greatly from this process.

 

[ray243]

I agree, I am only opposing a small part of your viewpoint that 'China has paid a huge price on tribute'. like this:

In fact, as I mentioned in my response, the tribute countries have benefited greatly from this process.

I see. Then our perspective regarding tributaries actually getting back wealth/material goods from their tributary missions is aligned. I think PDX made the tributary missions seems like it cost a lot of gold, while they can only gain imperial grace from it. They should not leave China with an empty handed is what my main concern is all about.

The tributaries often gained silk and porcelain from Chinese court which are items that are very valuable outside of China, so the tributary leaders can actually end up being well off after a successful tributary mission.

I would have them actually gain gold after a tributary mission.

 

[Ruisuki]

between the devaraja taking tributaries and hegemons having their subvassals targeted by conquest without notifying their overlord (as stated by DD 174) the game is becoming a lot more dynamic. Personally, I find war to be the most uninteresting part of this game, and I dread having to wage it, specially when its no longer a challenge - but these new additions go a ways to refresh this aspect of the game.

Man the break starting in june? Usually its in july and here I was expecting one more on the 1st. It took me a couple days to catch up with the DDs that have been dropping since may. Yall wrote a LOT! Really excited for the new things you guys are trying with the dlc, and really shaking the game up. It is my favorite game with RW a close 2nd.

 

[Kvesir]

In addition to the cultural flavor, Wanua will be able to traverse the sea and raid, naturally. We are also looking into more ways of making the Wanua feel special and fun to play; for example, being more dependent on Legitimacy (which they would receive from being Mandala Tributaries).

If Legitimacy is going to become more important could the issue of Legitimacy being completely non transparent due to bad tooltips be addressed?

 

[ray243]

between the devaraja taking tributaries and hegemons having their subvassals targeted by conquest without notifying their overlord (as stated by DD 174) the game is becoming a lot more dynamic. Personally, I find war to be the most uninteresting part of this game, and I dread having to wage it, specially when its no longer a challenge - but these new additions go a ways to refresh this aspect of the game.

Man the break starting in june? Usually its in july and here I was expecting one more on the 1st. It took me a couple days to catch up with the DDs that have been dropping since may. Yall wrote a LOT! Really excited for the new things you guys are trying with the dlc, and really shaking the game up. It is my favorite game with RW a close 2nd.

This is why I want a more fleshed out bureacracy where getting control over the realm is less about directly taking over the lands but making sure a majority of people in bureacracy are aligned with you.

I know the Devs abstract it as influence for the Byzantines but I feel this goes against the spirit of ck3.

 

[MaeveKnight]

Are you guys recategorizing feudal, admin, and tribal as government 'types' that can have variants now? I know it's sort of already treated that way in this DD a few times, I'm just curious if that's reflected in the back-end and official framing, too.

If you aren't now, would you consider doing it in the future?

 

[Jurrwie]

If there a update for devetion it should be have dynasty renown and fame update also
For the game ne much enjoy and I hope there update for there a update genetic traits Also

Or more practically put: if your character reaches one of the new Levels of Devotion, your successor gains a buff that allows them to progress to the next Level of Devotion, and so on. This can continue until you establish a lineage of godlike characters.


Oh, and make sure not to die the wrong way in relation to your Aspect. Did you ever hear about that Serenity-Aspect God king who died from a local epidemic? No? I didn't think so.

View attachment 1324131
[9 levels of devotion in a grid, ranking from Sinner to Godlike]

And yes, we do need to showcase some truly decadent art icon renders for this specific feature!

 

[CannaeCogitate]

If there a update for devetion it should be have dynasty renown and fame update also
For the game ne much enjoy and I hope there update for there a update genetic traits Also

ehhhh, honestly I'm not a fan of the genetic traits, they're weird and not super realistic and the entire 'inbreeding' meta this game has going on needs *no* encouragement.

 

[Videogames]

It just came to me that elephant roundups should be a special version of the hunting activity for Southeast Asia. Since elephants couldn't be bred in captivity, this was the sole source of elephant mounts for armies. Rulers in the region made a big deal out of the expeditions to round them up. In-game, failing to hold a roundup could put a debuff on the quality and/or maintenance of your (elephant-mounted) knights and elephantry MAAs. And then after you hold the activity, the relative success or failure could give a temporary corresponding buff or debuff. The activity could also link in to the rare game sighting system, for finding rare white elephants: collecting a white elephant could be a big jackpot of piety for the lucky ruler, and could also be the perfect gift to present on a mandala tributary mission!

 

[Nevars]

It just came to me that elephant roundups should be a special version of the hunting activity for Southeast Asia. Since elephants couldn't be bred in captivity, this was the sole source of elephant mounts for armies. Rulers in the region made a big deal out of the expeditions to round them up. In-game, failing to hold a roundup could put a debuff on the quality and/or maintenance of your (elephant-mounted) knights and elephantry MAAs. And then after you hold the activity, the relative success or failure could give a temporary corresponding buff or debuff. The activity could also link in to the rare game sighting system, for finding rare white elephants: collecting a white elephant could be a big jackpot of piety for the lucky ruler, and could also be the perfect gift to present on a mandala tributary mission!

I agree with this but I find elephant in game is just a huge drain with relatively low benefit already compared to other MAA so if they are to implement this I would like them to buff elephant in general too.

Like elephant is very useful in forest or jungle region, it's enable your army to carry more of stuff and make your whole army to march straight through dense jungle relatively easy.

That's why it was very useful in Mainland Southeast Asia before the wide adoption of gun.

 

[jinggachingu]

I agree with this but I find elephant in game is just a huge drain with relatively low benefit already compared to other MAA so if they are to implement this I would like them to buff elephant in general too.

Like elephant is very useful in forest or jungle region, it's enable your army to carry more of stuff and make your whole army to march straight through dense jungle relatively easy.

That's why it was very useful in Mainland Southeast Asia before the wide adoption of gun.

Me: Bringing Elephant to Europe with Hausa women knights to show the French the true meaning of Chivalry.

 

[CrazyRat]

It just came to me that elephant roundups should be a special version of the hunting activity for Southeast Asia. Since elephants couldn't be bred in captivity, this was the sole source of elephant mounts for armies. Rulers in the region made a big deal out of the expeditions to round them up. In-game, failing to hold a roundup could put a debuff on the quality and/or maintenance of your (elephant-mounted) knights and elephantry MAAs. And then after you hold the activity, the relative success or failure could give a temporary corresponding buff or debuff. The activity could also link in to the rare game sighting system, for finding rare white elephants: collecting a white elephant could be a big jackpot of piety for the lucky ruler, and could also be the perfect gift to present on a mandala tributary mission!

I don't know about a completely separate ability, and tying it into MAA, but I think that the rather-not-impressive capturing animals could use another look. I mean, temple elephants are kinda emblematic, and I think it would be very thematic to have very impressive one.

 

[Nosillew]

It would be nice if there was also a symbol for the level of devotion in Shinto, I would love to see Torii

(This image is not official, it is an image created by AI, it only serves to demonstrate an abstraction of an idea/suggestion)

 

[heliostellar]

So stoked for SE Asia and Indonesia. One of my favorite EU4 neighborhoods to play in!

 

[DrevMalion]

Hello to the Paradox team,
First off, thank you for all the continued work and support you put into Crusader Kings III. I'm writing this as a long-time player, stretching all the way back to the CK2 days, who has been eagerly following the development of Chapter IV. I just wanted to share some honest feedback on the recent direction of the game.
While I've enjoyed the flavor that the recent DLCs have brought, from Khans of the Steppe to Coronations, I have a growing concern that they feel more like narrative or cosmetic layers rather than deep, systemic innovations. The new art and cultures are fantastic, but governance and warfare still essentially play the same as any other feudal realm. The coronation ceremonies are a wonderful thematic touch, but they don't fundamentally alter how a ruler's power grows or how they manage their vassals.
With All Under Heaven on the horizon, there's a huge potential to revolutionize the game. The idea of a Chinese-style bureaucracy and the Mandate of Heaven is incredibly exciting. However, my worry is that it might end up using the same mechanical backbone we're already familiar with, just dressed up with new events and court positions.
What I feel CK3 is missing, now four years after its release, are those core systemic additions that truly change how you play. For instance, naval warfare is a big one. Right now, ships are just a form of teleportation across water, which leaves naval powers like Japan or Srivijaya feeling mechanically incomplete. There's no room for maritime strategy, blockades, or controlling the seas. Similarly, the game could really benefit from systems representing standing, professional armies, like those of the Byzantines or Abbasids, rather than having every realm rely solely on levies and men-at-arms.
If you're introducing an Imperial China DLC, I sincerely hope you'll consider a playable, centralized bureaucracy that feels distinct, not just a feudal variant with different names for titles. The same goes for the economy; there's currently very little mechanical difference between a rich trading port and an inland tribal holding. A real trade system, with maritime routes or networks like the Silk Road, would add so much strategic depth.
My hope is that future development might shift some focus toward these core systems—military, economy, and government types. Please don't be afraid to break away from the feudal mold. A Chinese Bureaucracy or a Mongol Horde shouldn't feel like a Western feudal duchy with a different art style.
I'm writing this because I absolutely love CK3. I've bought every piece of content and have supported it since day one. But lately, it feels like the game is adding endless cosmetic variations without changing the underlying gameplay. The sandbox is incredibly wide, but it isn't yet very deep.
CK2 dared to evolve in fundamental ways throughout its life. CK3 should, too.
Thanks so much for your time and for reading this. I hope it reaches the development team.
Sincerely,
A concerned fan

 

[tribnia]

Shouldn't you break Champa up a little? They have only two de jure duchies

 

[Rémerod er Bannt]

Hello to the Paradox team,
First off, thank you for all the continued work and support you put into Crusader Kings III. I'm writing this as a long-time player, stretching all the way back to the CK2 days, who has been eagerly following the development of Chapter IV. I just wanted to share some honest feedback on the recent direction of the game.
While I've enjoyed the flavor that the recent DLCs have brought, from Khans of the Steppe to Coronations, I have a growing concern that they feel more like narrative or cosmetic layers rather than deep, systemic innovations. The new art and cultures are fantastic, but governance and warfare still essentially play the same as any other feudal realm. The coronation ceremonies are a wonderful thematic touch, but they don't fundamentally alter how a ruler's power grows or how they manage their vassals.
With All Under Heaven on the horizon, there's a huge potential to revolutionize the game. The idea of a Chinese-style bureaucracy and the Mandate of Heaven is incredibly exciting. However, my worry is that it might end up using the same mechanical backbone we're already familiar with, just dressed up with new events and court positions.
What I feel CK3 is missing, now four years after its release, are those core systemic additions that truly change how you play. For instance, naval warfare is a big one. Right now, ships are just a form of teleportation across water, which leaves naval powers like Japan or Srivijaya feeling mechanically incomplete. There's no room for maritime strategy, blockades, or controlling the seas. Similarly, the game could really benefit from systems representing standing, professional armies, like those of the Byzantines or Abbasids, rather than having every realm rely solely on levies and men-at-arms.
If you're introducing an Imperial China DLC, I sincerely hope you'll consider a playable, centralized bureaucracy that feels distinct, not just a feudal variant with different names for titles. The same goes for the economy; there's currently very little mechanical difference between a rich trading port and an inland tribal holding. A real trade system, with maritime routes or networks like the Silk Road, would add so much strategic depth.
My hope is that future development might shift some focus toward these core systems—military, economy, and government types. Please don't be afraid to break away from the feudal mold. A Chinese Bureaucracy or a Mongol Horde shouldn't feel like a Western feudal duchy with a different art style.
I'm writing this because I absolutely love CK3. I've bought every piece of content and have supported it since day one. But lately, it feels like the game is adding endless cosmetic variations without changing the underlying gameplay. The sandbox is incredibly wide, but it isn't yet very deep.
CK2 dared to evolve in fundamental ways throughout its life. CK3 should, too.
Thanks so much for your time and for reading this. I hope it reaches the development team.
Sincerely,
A concerned fan

I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying, but out of curiosity did you ever do the latest survey "Your Kingdom Your Call"? (If you dident, then) the survey asked a lot about what we would think about new mechanics, like trade!, laws, empires and how fuedal government could improve with much more. In my opinion also as a "long-time player, stretching all the way back to the CK2 days" i felt this survey tackled a lot of issues/wishes we fans have had during these past years. and While i am looking forward and enjoying what chapter 4 have and will bring us, i do feel that chapter 5 will be the best year for ck3, if it will be what the survey indicates are upcoming content.

Unfortunatly the survey is closed and i dont think you can read it anymore but If you dident have chance reading it, here is a quote from the forum page that summerize what chapter 5 might bring;

So for anyone who can't view it right now (or who is looking back at this in the far future), the topics that are focused on (i.e., have their own question about what you would expect on the topic) in the survey are:

• Trade & Merchants
• Feudalism & Crusades
• Empires & Laws
• Religion

Edit: Have a little bit more time now, so here are the potential features that they asked about for each category of the survey:

• Trade & Merchants
  • Economic Diplomacy (embargoes, trade deals)
  • Landless Merchants gameplay
  • Merchant republics
  • Trade Routes
  • Land trade
  • Trade goods
  • Production Chains
  • Banking
  • Non-merchant Republics
  • Non-merchant trade (trading as a Feudal ruler)
  • Buildable infrastructure (markets, ports, trade posts)
  • Naval trade
• Feudalism & Crusades
  • Loyalty system
  • Vassal Directives
  • Temporary buildings during crusades
  • Crusade Situation (more roles and and actions)
  • Vassal management (marches, principalities, etc)
  • Feudal contracts and obligations
  • Council
  • Holy Orders
  • Peace negotiations
  • Alliance pacts
  • Edicts (e.g., liege decrees that taxes will be increased for the next 10 years)
  • Dread and Tyranny
  • Crusader States
  • More focus on playing as a vassal
  • Vassal stances (vassal agendas)
• Empires & Laws
  • Vassal integration and autonomy options
  • Imperial administration and bureaucracy
  • Legal reforms and codification
  • Religious and cultural freedoms
  • Empire-wide policy implementation
  • Council roles and decision-making powers
  • Customizable succession laws
  • Army laws and military reforms
• Religion
  • Religious councils and synods
  • Church hierarchy and influence
  • Interfaith relations and diplomacy
  • Religious Casus Belli and warfare
  • Heresy development and suppression
  • Monostatic orders and their roles
  • Religious building / Great Projects / artifacts
  • Pilgrimages and holy sites

So my point that i am building up to is, chapter 4 will not be perfect. Why? becouse i feel like trade is a gameplay mechanic that is very much laking in the game, and will especially be lacking in gameplay for all under haven, you speak of a "A real trade system, with maritime routes or networks like the Silk Road, would add so much strategic depth." but giving the survey i extremly doubt we will get it now, but it will come! in the next chapter (hopefully). And even though i sadly think there will be lacking elements (that will hopefully be expanded upon in the future) i do feel with what we are adding in all under haven will greatly make the areas in the current eastern region a lot more fun, like i useally avoid playing in india and tibet, not becouse i dont like them but becouse i feel they they are in a corner, which will be fixed with this upcoming dlc (and even khans of the steppe will be expanded upon, a dlc which they released recently!).
Another fun note is that they seem(hopefully) to be adding a law dlc (and we can see in all under haven they they are doing some stuff with this but probably on a much more basic level that what will be in the future) that will most likely help governments to be even more differant from each other, heck even same governments might be more differant from each other which is something that i think the majority of us would like.

So while i do think there will be areas that might feel unfinished (mechanic wise), i do think we're getting more and more dlc that will work into each other, and honeslty that is alwyas what i hoped for the start that would happened.

The one grit/disapointment i have that you also bring up is that i still dont think we're getting a naval warfare overhall. I really agree with your point on this, and it is one that i feel that could especially be intresting expansion onto the areas of All under haven.

I am excited that everything chapter 4 seems to bring us, i still have criticism and worries. And i still think it's important to show our concerns, but now, especially with the survey that they gave us, i for a one is not a concerned fan, but a hopefull one, more so then i've been for a very long time, and i do think we can have hope for the future of ck3 with what they've directly and indirectly have shown us, and i find that is also important to talk about.