Dev Diary #21 - Custom Faiths and Pagan Reformation

[Ezumiyr]

The AI does not use this feature, and will only spawn historical heresies like Lollardy and Waldensianism. Only players can form historically inaccurate heresies.

A shame. I was hoping it would at least be a game rule, or maybe that the AI could spawn historically plausible heresies.

Waldensianism or Cathars are only historically accurate if they spawn in their respective areas under specific circumstances. Otherwise, they are just believable contestations of catholicism - among others.

 

[Masternachos]

AND that they literally have characters in the history files of CK2 who were celts, who I guess are just going to up and vanish this game because there's no generic pagan this time around... FFS.)

If there ISN'T a "generic" paganism for history files, then what the heck are they going to be is an excellent question I hadn't thought of until now.

 

[TacticalRetreat]

Nice, so the very last and best of the CKII expansions is already mostly incorporated into CKIII? That is unexpected, but very welcome.

I love tinkering around with reformations and inventing new faiths. I'll just have to invent my own... battle cry.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I guess one nice option to have would be a game rule for AI reformation and religious branching. Actually, let's do some game rules for religions in general:

Custom religions:

• Disabled - custom religions and pagan reformation are completely disabled.
• Pagan reformation - Pagan reformation is permitted, but no custom religions can be made.
• Organized reformations - Custom religions may be made off of organized religions.
• Both - Enable both.

AI custom religions:

• Player only - The AI will not start a custom religion or reform pagan faiths.
• Historical only - The AI will only establish historical religions and has fixed choices in pagan reformations.
• Plausible - The AI will make limited changes to their custom religions, partially directed by their personality traits. Core beliefs will be maintained, several high level doctrines will not be used.
• Free - The AI can make any custom religions they wish, directed by their personality traits.

Religious revival:

• Disabled - Dead religions cannot be adopted by any characters.
• Player only, no ancient religions - AI characters will never adopt a dead religion. Player characters can adopt religions that die after the game starts under strict circumstances.
• Player only - The AI will never adopt a dead religion. Player characters can adopt any dead religion under strict circumstances.
• Enabled, No ancient religions - Any character can adopt a religion that dies after the game starts under strict circumstances.
  
• Enabled, Ancient religions are player only - The AI can adopt religions that die after the game starts under strict circumstances. Player characters can adopt any dead religion under strict circumstances.
  
• Enabled - Any character can adopt any dead religion under strict circumstances.

EDIT: Added a few more options at @Silversweeeper's suggestion.

 

[Magmus]

Wait how will this effect Halfdan in 867?

Halfdan in CK2 was a unique and very fun Germanic pagan feudal. Now that was CK2, and I am assuming that a) Halfdan is still there I understand these are Ragnarr's sons and it goes back to legends and he may not be, or may be named something different. And that b) it's an assumption that he will be feudal in CK3.

I can live with less feudal pagans but keep in mind those few feudal pagans that there were, were really fun and often iconic starts.

EDIT Also Halfdan as feudal and Ivar as tribal gave a nice choice.

You couldn't reform from a tribe as an unreformed pagan regardless though, so either you can still inherit/be granted feudal holdings or maybe england starts as tribal?

 

[Silversweeeper]

Religious revival:

• Disabled - Dead religions cannot be adopted by any characters.

• Player only - The AI will never adopt a dead religion. Player characters can under strict circumstances.

• Enabled - Dead religions can be adopted under strict circumstances.

I'd suggest also having an "Only if dead after the game start" option, to make a distinction between reviving some long-dead religion found in the history files and reviving e.g. the Zoroastrian faith if it vanishes a few decades into the game or e.g. the Cathar heresy a few decades after the first failed outbreak ends. An "Unrestricted for the player, only if dead after the game starts for the AI" option might also be interesting.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I'd suggest also having an "Only if dead after the game start" option, to make a distinction between reviving some long-dead religion found in the history files and reviving e.g. the Zoroastrian faith if it vanishes a few decades into the game or e.g. the Cathar heresy a few decades after the first failed outbreak ends. An "Unrestricted for the player, only if dead after the game starts for the AI" option might also be interesting.

Sure I can add those to the list.

 

[Bulan]

The Beja remained majority pagans well into the 11th century, and in many areas remained pagan pretty well to the end of the CK period

IIRC Beja culture was in one or two single holding counties in CK2, which is probably an underestimate for the 867 start date, but the geography is a little ambiguous. But to have a "Kushite" religion throughout Eritrea? By the 9th century there is strong evidence this region had been superficially Christian for hundreds of years and was superficially Islamizing. I know that some Beja moved into Ethiopia/Eritrea but the idea that the majority of people were worshipping some modified Egyptian pantheon there at this time is a fantasy IMO. These were rural nomadic people with local folk beliefs plus a veneer of whatever religion was popular in powerful adjacent kingdoms which is no different than the state of much of rural Europe, North Africa and the Middle East at the time, and those regions get modeled as firmly Christian or Islamic. To say the Beja had an exotic pantheon that in any way resembles ancient Egyptian beliefs or to call this "Kushitic" seems hardly credible.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Expanding on different faith opinions, going from most to least accepted. As you move in one direction the previous stipulations remain in effect unless otherwise stated:

• In communion / Fellows of the faith: The two faiths treat each other as if they were the same faith. They will defend one another in religious wars.
• Accepted: The two faiths have no religious penalties, but do not defend one another in religious wars. Religions cannot attempt to convert one another.
• Tolerated: Religious difference penalties are low. Rulers will not actively try to convert these subjects unless zealous. No penalties for using them as advisers or landing them. Cannot declare religious wars against them. Cannot raid unless culture/religion/government permits raiding same religion.
• Misguided: Moderate religious difference penalties. Rulers will actively try to convert these subjects. Cannot revoke their territory on religious grounds. Can wage religious wars against them, but these will subjugate instead of conquering their lands. Can only be raided if culture/religion/government permits raiding other religions.
• Hostile: Moderate religious difference penalties. Adviser appointments and even being in the court can cause issues. Granting lands to them or pressing their claims costs piety. Lands can be revoked on religious grounds. Religious wars waged against them will conquer lands. Can only be raided if culture/religion/government permits raiding other religions.
• Evil: Major religious difference penalties. Cannot appoint them as advisers, grant land to them, or press their claims. May always raid them.

As an example, Catholics:

• Most branches of Christianity are considered tolerated.
• Orthodox in the earlier start date should start as accepted, but switches to tolerated after the great schism.
• Maronite, as was discussed in Dev Diary #20, would start as tolerated but switch to 'in communion' after the event where they recognize the pope as the head of their church.
• Adherents to Catholic heresies are considered traitors to the church and are hostile (unless they stick around for extended periods of time and become 'mainstream' faiths, in which case they can become tolerated, but may also remain hostile depending on circumstances).
• Jewish faiths are misguided.
• Islamic faiths are hostile.
• The rest of the faiths in the game are evil.

I agree with most of this, however "heresies" that are effectively a rite of the main church could potentially be "fellows of the faith" or "accepted" (say a married clergy Celtic Church), since they're just the weird geographic fringe of the church.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Okay. Don't blame me for not knowing about some obscure thread thing, but I guess that is a thing. Now excuse me whilst I, um, get INCREDIBLY pissed about them not including this.

(Particularly since every other fucking religion and the kitchen sink, right down to obscure cults like zunism, are apparently in, and there's literally a category for religions which weren't being actively practiced by anyone outside of a tiny minority during that time period, the dead religions we've heard so much about... AND that they literally have characters in the history files of CK2 who were celts, who I guess are just going to up and vanish this game because there's no generic pagan this time around... FFS.)

You can hardly call the dev diaries "obscure". Especially whilst posting in one.
On the one hand Zunism was fairly minor, on the other it was adopted by a major dynasty in China. It also manages to be alive at roughly the start of the game.

This isn't really the way to get Celtic paganism in. Far more productive would be to follow the same route that the Hellenic supporters did in CKII, and to work out what the tenets and so on for Celtic would be, and present that and a reasonable argument for it. It'd also need a god list.

If we've got enough information to do it now, then lets do it now. It may not make it into release, but with a bit of luck we can get it in an early patch. If we don't, then lets hold off until release, look at the doctrines and tenets, and suggest a version that would work.

 

[Silversweeeper]

I agree with most of this, however "heresies" that are effectively a rite of the main church could potentially be "fellows of the faith" or "accepted" (say a married clergy Celtic Church), since they're just the weird geographic fringe of the church.

That'd probably have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, which would be messier to script (unless some Doctrines or Tenets were scripted as "Always a deal-breaker unless both have it"), since not everything is equally outlandish. For example, a Faith that's "Catholic [minus one Tenet] with Ritual Cannibalism" would probably have more trouble with Catholic (or general Christian) acceptance than "Catholic [minus one Tenet] without Holy Wars" even though they're both just one step away from mainstream Catholicism.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

That'd probably have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, which would be messier to script (unless some Doctrines or Tenets were scripted as "Always a deal-breaker unless both have it"), since not everything is equally outlandish. For example, a Faith that's "Catholic [minus one Tenet] with Ritual Cannibalism" would probably have more trouble with Catholic (or general Christian) acceptance than "Catholic [minus one Tenet] without Holy Wars" even though they're both just one step away from mainstream Catholicism.

Sure.
I was thinking "historical but possibly missing" ones more than anything.

*Perhaps* it could be worked on long term with use of the base amount of faith required to found the heresy? If it's small, or the tenet is one step away, it might be more acceptable. I don't know though, it was just a thought I was throwing out.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

You can hardly call the dev diaries "obscure". Especially whilst posting in one.
On the one hand Zunism was fairly minor, on the other it was adopted by a major dynasty in China. It also manages to be alive at roughly the start of the game.

This isn't really the way to get Celtic paganism in. Far more productive would be to follow the same route that the Hellenic supporters did in CKII, and to work out what the tenets and so on for Celtic would be, and present that and a reasonable argument for it. It'd also need a god list.

If we've got enough information to do it now, then lets do it now. It may not make it into release, but with a bit of luck we can get it in an early patch. If we don't, then lets hold off until release, look at the doctrines and tenets, and suggest a version that would work.

I can see that working as part of an expanded heresy system. Something that allows for the establishment of new 'branches', 'schools of thought', or 'movements' within an existing religion/faith. So long as the movement doesn't directly protest or oppose the original faith in some way, they'll start out as 'in communion' and share the same religious head. That is up until some major event like the faith being proclaimed as heretical, at which point it becomes hostile and has the 'heresy' flag.

You need a fairly complex system for this sort of thing, both mechanically and narratively. In the case of Catholics, declaring heresies was something that church councils took care of. The pope also gradually sought to consolidate these sorts of branches more and more over time, so while they'd be fairly common early on the general trend would be towards more and more being declared heretical and/or absorbed into the main branch. You'd also need some sort of system in place that allows for multiple faiths to have the same religious head, as a faith that's in communion with Catholicism that doesn't respect the Pope as the final authority of the church is a non-starter.

 

[Myrkull]

Celtic paganism was long dead during game timeline and it should be used only for historic characters. But if there is 867 start date I don't see reason why hellenistic religion shouldn't be in, I mean with bigger number of provinces in CK3, there can be Mani penisula region, even with one holding, which in 867 still should be pagan.

 

[Vokasak]

To offer a desenting voice, I'm all for having all kinds of crazy faiths in the game, from dead ones like celtic paganism, to fictional ones like some kind of lovecraftian cthulu cult, to even dumb memes like secret bear worship. Having them alive on the map at game start is a different matter, but I wholeheartedly encourage the inclusion of the weird and ahistorical. Where's the harm, if the player is allowed freedom to make their own anyway?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Celtic paganism was long dead during game timeline and it should be used only for historic characters. But if there is 867 start date I don't see reason why hellenistic religion shouldn't be in, I mean with bigger number of provinces in CK3, there can be Mani penisula region, even with one holding, which in 867 still should be pagan.

"Long dead" is a difficult one. Outbreaks or reversions to Celtic faith in rural areas are supposed to have continued for a while after it was supposedly eradicated.

As far as being "long dead goes", when do you consider it to have been finally killed off?

 

[Bulan]

Celtic paganism was long dead during game timeline and it should be used only for historic characters. But if there is 867 start date I don't see reason why hellenistic religion shouldn't be in, I mean with bigger number of provinces in CK3, there can be Mani penisula region, even with one holding, which in 867 still should be pagan.

This is numerically a very small and politically irrelevant group of people, with no obvious evidence of continuity with what we think of as "hellenistic religion". There were churches in the Mani peninsula centuries before 867. When it comes to deciphering accounts from the Middle Ages can we as modern observers realistically distinguish between small "pagan" groups and superstitous rustics who didn't have a priest/imam to enforce orthodox beliefs and/or suppress folk superstitions for a long period of time?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

This is numerically a very small and politically irrelevant group of people, with no obvious evidence of continuity with what we think of as "hellenistic religion". There were churches in the Mani peninsula centuries before 867. When it comes to deciphering accounts from the Middle Ages can we as modern observers realistically distinguish between small "pagan" groups and superstitous rustics who didn't have a priest/imam to enforce orthodox beliefs and/or suppress folk superstitions for a long period of time?

Hence why it's a *dead* religion at game start.

That said, there have previously been many, many supporting arguments for "Hellenic" Maniots in 867 on this forum, which were sufficiently convincing to add Hellenic to CKII.

Just because there are churches somewhere does not mean the majority of the population of an area follow the religion of that church, just that the faith feels sufficiently strong to build physical worship sites there. There are, for example many mosques, synagogues, and Gudhwaras in Britain, but Britain is (at least on paper) majority Christian. Ireland had churches in the major population centres before the provinces were converted from Celtic Paganism.

And of course, where we have a contemporary source bemoaning the "pagan" rites of the rural communities, are we supposed to just dismiss this primary source as "oh well, we can't look back and distinguish between "pagan" groups and folk superstitions? Or should we accept that the contemporary source might well know what it is talking about?

 

[Myrkull]

"Long dead" is a difficult one. Outbreaks or reversions to Celtic faith in rural areas are supposed to have continued for a while after it was supposedly eradicated.

As far as being "long dead goes", when do you consider it to have been finally killed off?

Ireland was christianized in 5th century, Picts accepted christianity a little later, in 6th century, welsh were already christianized. Of course traces of celtic paganism survived in folk christianity, but there are no historical records saying that in IX century still existed pagans practicing celtic paganism. So we can then assume that this religion was dead during game timeline.

 

[Bulan]

I don't think it's fair to represent whatever the Maniots had as the same civic metropolitan cult based "Hellenic Paganism" that e.g. Roman emperors in game files get. Think critically- no written scripture , no organized priesthood, no major cultic sites. There could not realistically be that level of continuity of practice and orthodoxy. Whatever "Hellenic religion" the Maniots retained as folklore would have been modified to the point of being unrecognizable.