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Dev Diary #47 - Conversion and Assimilation

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Happy Thursday! Today our topic returns to Pop mechanics, with a discussion around some of the finer details on how Pops may change their religion and culture over time depending on your nation’s legal system. The mechanics themselves are quite straightforward, but as always in Victoria 3, the applications of them can have quite different outcomes in different situations.

Let’s begin by reviewing the mechanics around Discrimination, since this will be important later in the discussion. We’ve already talked about most of this in other dev diaries but some details here may be new.
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Discriminated Pops have barely any Political Strength and cannot vote. This means the only way they can impact your country’s politics is by agitating for change through Political Movements, or by starting a civil war for self-rule through a Cultural Secession. In addition to being hamstrung politically, they also get paid substantially less than their non-discriminated counterparts, have a harder time developing Qualifications for certain Professions, and their presence in your country is a potential source of radicalism and Turmoil.

Whether a Pop is discriminated against or accepted depends on who they are, the national identity of the country they live in, and the laws of that country. Both culture and religion are potential reasons for discrimination, and these are controlled by different laws. Your Citizenship laws determine which Pops are discriminated against on the basis of their culture, while your Church and State laws determine which forms of worship are considered acceptable in your country. To be considered non-discriminated by these laws, Pops must pass a more or less stringent selection criteria based on how much they differ from the primary culture(s) and state religion in the country.

For example, under the Racial Segregation Citizenship law, only Pops whose culture’s heritage trait matches that of their primary cultures heritage trait will be accepted. The heritage trait indicates which region of the world the culture originates from (e.g. European, African, Indigenous American), and under this law that is the only thing that matters - whether the Pops speak the same language, or are both transplants in the New World, is unimportant in determining their status. By contrast, under Cultural Exclusion, any similarity between a Pop’s culture and one of the primary ones qualifies them as equal under the law.

The total set of options are:

Ethnostate: only Pops of primary cultures are accepted
National Supremacy: Pops whose cultures share both heritage and another trait are accepted
Racial Segregation: Pops of the same heritage are accepted
Cultural Exclusion: Pops whose cultures share any similarities are accepted
Multiculturalism: no cultures are discriminated against

State Religion: only Pops who adhere to the state religion are accepted
Freedom of Conscience: Pops who adhere to a religion in the same family as the state religion are accepted (e.g. any branch of Christianity, any form of Buddhist)
Total Separation: no religions are discriminated against

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The practical impact of these laws therefore depends on what the state religion and primary cultures of your country are, as well as who actually lives in your country. An Ethnostate operates no differently in practice than a Multicultural state if only Pops of primary cultures live there. Since Pops are unlikely to mass migrate to your country if they’d be oppressed there once they arrived, until you expand your borders and populace by force you may not see a practical difference (except for a curious lack of immigrants). But if you were to form a Customs Union with a poorer neighbor, resulting in a lot of economic migration within the market to your country, you might have to deal with substantial political strife until you take steps to loosen up your Citizenship laws. If the option exists for you, as an alternative you might consider attempting to unify your nations instead (which we’ll learn more about next week) in order to accept both cultures as “primary”.

Alright, now that we’ve cleared up how countries can adapt to the Pops, we will consider how Pops might adapt to their country.

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First let’s tackle Religious Conversion. Pops who are discriminated against on the basis of their religion will always be in the process of converting to an accepted religion. The religion they convert to is not necessarily the state religion, though - it could be any accepted religion that is dominant in the state where they live. An Indigenous American following an Animist religion in a United States with Freedom of Conscience instead of Total Separation is eventually going to convert to some form of Christianity to avoid religious persecution, but if they live in a Nebraska that has been settled by predominantly Catholic rather than Protestant Pops, they would convert to Catholicism even though Protestantism is the dominant religion in the nation as a whole.

Pops convert at a percentage-based rate, currently set to a base of 0.2% / month (as usual, numbers such as these are subject to balancing and change before release, and are always moddable). A percentage-based conversion rate naturally means a diminishing number of actual converts over time, so at this rate it would take almost 30 years for ½ of your discriminated population to convert. If you find this rate too ponderous for your strategic goals, you have two primary tools at your disposal to speed it up.

The Religious School System law + institution combination increases this rate by +20% per investment level, up to a potential maximum of +100% (i.e. twice the speed). It also increases the Education Access of Pops overall and increases the Clout of the Devout Interest Group.

The other method is the Promote National Values decree. Like all decrees, it is issued in a certain state and costs Authority for each state it is issued in, so in a larger country you will have to focus your efforts. Promote National Values doubles the rate of both conversion and assimilation.

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Using a combination of both methods, you could speed up religious conversion such that ½ of a minority population can be converted to an accepted religion within the span of a 10 years. Of course, your school system only extends to incorporated states, so if you’re trying to mass convert Pops in conquered land or colonies you will have to do so by decree - or embark on the often lengthy and painstaking process of incorporating a part of the world that’s culturally alien to your country.

This leads us to cultural assimilation. The conditions for assimilation are a little more complex than conversion, and in some ways operate by the reverse logic. In order to start assimilating, a Pop must already be culturally accepted. After all, if they can’t get citizenship, can’t vote, can’t participate in politics, can’t get paid a fair wage on the basis of who they are, there simply is no way for them to assimilate - by which we mean, integrate themselves into a primary culture such that they are both accepted as such by others and genuinely consider themselves part of that culture. Renouncing one’s religious beliefs and practices can be a very practical and concrete choice, but adopting and being adopted by a different culture is not a utilitarian decision.

In addition, Pops will never change culture if they live in a state they consider their Homeland. A Franco-Canadian in Ontario might over time adopt the ways and tongue of their Anglo-Canadian neighbors, but a Franco-Canadian who resides in Quebec?! Plutôt mourir!

(And of course, if a confederated Canada has been created with both Anglo- and Franco-Canadian as primary cultures, none of those types of Pops would be changing cultures in the first place.)

If a Pop should be assimilating, the culture they will be assimilating into will always be a primary culture. This is because, again, this is not a practical decision that’s just up to the Pop in question, but a two-way-street of assimilation into the dominant national identity. In the case of countries with multiple primary cultures, the one selected will be the Homeland of the state the Pop lives in, or in case none or several apply, the dominant one among Pops who already live there. A Czech Pop living in a unified Germany (North + South German) in the state of Silesia (North German and Polish Homelands) will assimilate into the North German culture; if they lived in Bavaria they would be assimilating into the South German culture; and if they lived in Bohemia they would not assimilate at all, since Bohemia is a not only a South German but also a Czech Homeland. If this Pop instead lived in Transylvania (with both Hungarian and Romanian primary cultures and Homelands), they would be assimilating into whichever of those cultures is more dominant in the part of Transylvania where they live.

The rate of assimilation is the same as for religion, 0.2% per month. As mentioned, the Promote National Values decree can be used to double this rate on a per-state basis. In addition, a Public School System will provide an increased assimilation rate of +12.5% per investment level, representing perhaps a less overt approach to indoctrination than their religious counterparts. With maximum effort, this means you can assimilate half of a minority population in about 18 years.

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I’ll end on a small design note. While our primary motivation while developing these mechanics was to provide a logical and believable simulation, a nice side effect of the asymmetry between conversion and assimilation is that there’s no way to benefit from both without an asymmetry in your laws as well. An inclusive, accepting, discrimination-free society won’t also become religiously homogeneous over time, nor will an oppressive, xenophobic country be able to assimilate their cultural minorities just by waiting them out while throwing resources at integrating them. Culture-wise, Pops need to be either accepted or harshly dealt with, now or in the future. Being accepting of all faiths today means there will be problems if you backtrack in the future. There is no one-size-fits-all strategy for dealing with heterogeneous populations.

There are of course a few good examples of countries that already start out with asymmetrical Citizenship and Church and State laws. The Ottoman Empire, home to a lot of cultural and religious minorities, has fairly lenient Citizenship Laws but zero separation of Church and State. As a result they will initially have a lot of both assimilation and conversion, and increasing the rate of those further might be one way for them to try to minimize Turmoil due to discrimination long-term. Meanwhile, the United States has total separation of Church and State (zero religious conversion, but no religious discrimination either) but Racial Segregation laws that cause considerable population segments to be discriminated against, particularly Indigenous- and African-American. Since none of these populations will ever be assimilating unless the Citizenship policy changes, this problem will not just go away on its own. Either the United States changes course legally, or they will have to continue dealing with trouble caused by the oppression of these minorities for the following century.

That’s all for this week! Like I hinted above, next week Martin will get into how Unifications work in Victoria 3, which I for one am very excited about!
 
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If this Pop instead lived in Transylvania (with both Hungarian and Romanian primary cultures and Homelands), they would be assimilating into whichever of those cultures is more dominant in the part of Transylvania where they live.​


Hmmm. Assuming Transylvania is a single state, does this mean you figured out how to make POPs live in provinces (or any other sub-state divisions)?

If it is multiple states, I might be getting hyped up over nothing.
 
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I thought the US is somewhat anti-Catholic during that time?

If I understand the design intent correctly then Catholics are discriminated on a cultural/individual level, which is not modeled in the game. However, they are not discriminated in a legal sense? They still have the same legal rights as Protetants unlike, say, Jews in some European polities or Christians in the Ottoman Empire.
 
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Hmmm. Assuming Transylvania is a single state, does this mean you figured out how to make POPs live in provinces (or any other sub-state divisions)?

If it is multiple states, I might be getting hyped up over nothing.
It's most likely what they described earlier: They have some general ways of tracking population location such as if it's an urban vs rural profession or if they work in a shipyard on the coast, but they aren't going to have detailed statistics shown for each province.
 
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Not happening, discrimation works entirely in a binary system - a culture is either discriminated, or fully accepted.
i think yuo a mistaking being fully accepted with being an accepted culture, the main blocker to russification of poland will be the fact that poland will logically be the homeland of the poles, and they will not assimilate no mater what, otherwise if russia wanted to assimilate poles, they need just pass more lax citizen ship laws, by wich the poles will start assimilating to russian everywhere but their homeland
 
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wait so is there no way for pops to convert away from your main religion?

missionaries in foreign countries were actually a big deal in this period iirc, im thinking for example christianity in china, leading to the taiping rebellion, which doesnt seem like it can happen at all here (with just this system at least)
 
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How will you prevent Ashkenazi Jews from being assimilated in Russia, while enabling them to be a degree assimilated in America, as according to the Dev Diaries logic most of the Jews in Russia will become Christian over time(as Russia has State Religion), but not assimilate culturally(As Russia will operate by National Supremacy/Cultural Exclusion). However, historically during the Russian Empire very few Jews or Muslims ever converted to Orthodox Christianity. Likewise, very few Catholics in Poland, Lithuania etc. Converted to Orthodoxy either.

Likewise in the Ottoman Empire there's no seperation of Church and State, and the state was generally culturally tolerant, but historically no populations culturally assimilated (though this might be covered by cultural homelands), and there was hardly any conversion of Islam at all.
 
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Overall I like this system. It works in a logical way that works with general history.

Obviously every nation had its own intricacies towards different culture groups. We are not going to get a system that perfectly matches every nation and their policies towards non-accepted culture groups.

I am curious if there will be emergent culture groups or are they hard set at the begging of the game? Also what is the difference between "Heritage Culture" groups and just "Culture" groups?
 
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Waiting for a point-based system simulating different levels of discrimination from DLC.
I wouldn't be suprised if one of the dlc was to be about minorities, introducing state autonomy, cultural factions and parties, different levels of discrimination, expanded genoc- I mean, assimilation mechanics, and the like. Maybe combined with new revolutions mechanics to better simulate small scale revolutions that were successfull without any need of large military campaign, like most (if not all) french revolutions in the era.
 
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Has there been any consideration for the idea of splitting culture and heritage?

So you could, for example, have a situation where Han pops have migrated to the USA for a while and have since adopted Yankee culture, but are still an ethnically distinct group. This group would be accepted under cultural exclusion but discriminated against under racial segregation, giving a more meaningful difference between the two.
 
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If I understand this correctly, then Polish pops in Posen and Prussia would convert to Protestantism, but would not assimilate to north german culture? That seems... wrong. Especially considering that it was specifically the Protestant Poles that mostly assimilated into the German culture while the Catholic Poles largely maintained their culture.

This is why in the Posen/Prussia provinces religion is largely an indicator of cultural groups.

On another note, regarding relious discrimination, would the consequence of this system be that the Jewish faith would be discriminated in a Christian majority country unless it completely seperates church and state? That also seems not quite right. Wasn't Jewish emancipation usually directed specifically at Jews rather than all non-Christian faiths?
 
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I like the complexity of the system, but I hope for some tweaks:
1) Make the "promote national values" edict break through block on assimilation on Homelands and for discriminated pops. This would make sense: an authoritarian intolerant government would be willing and able to spend authority to force assimilation on its subjects, while more democratic government would mostly rely on just accepting minorities. In the normal case discriminated people will have no chance to be accepted as equals by their oppressors which means no assimilation even if a Pole is willing to change his name and language, but if the Tsar or Kaiser says so everyone should comply (at least begrudgingly - add some Turmoil penalties to it, but make it possible).
2) Are there any differences between an Accepted and Primary Culture pop in the gameplay terms? If no, I feel they should be added. Maybe less political power or small debuff to wages/qualification growth (to represent difficulties of inter-cultural communication, even if people are not actively discriminated against it's still harder to be successful if you don't speak the language natively and find the customs foreign).

Edit:
3) Also, the religious conversion seems a bit odd - in current mechanics, for example, Russia would convert most Poles and the Muslims of Central Asia and Caucasus to Orthodox, while the Ottomans would convert the Greeks to Islam which was not happening on any significant scale. Maybe Homelands should also shield people from religious conversion? Each culture in the game can keep track on the majority religion of that culture, and on Homelands of that culture the majority religion won't be affected by conversion in normal circumstances (if assimilation edict is not active).
 
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What happens if you start accepting a culture (e.g by enacting Multiculturalism) but have no Primary Cultures of the same Heritage ?
Can they still assimilate ?
 
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Very good DD.
Though we will always wish for more refined and detailed mechanics (maybe religious mechanics more akin to the one in CK3?).

1. Will there be any special cases included - such as Jewish people? A majority of them lived outside of Israel in XIX century, a majority was discriminated against, but few converted or lost their culture heritage.

2. If pops living in their homeland cannot be assimilated - will there be an option to forcefully re-settle them?

3. Will Church laws have any influence on taxation - like jizya in Ottoman Empire or church tax?

4. Likewise - accepted / not accepted cultures - will there be difference in taxation imposed on them?

5. If Church laws are relaxed - will there be a surge in "reverse-conversion"? I.e. "I converted to X, because it was necessary to advance in society, but now all religions are equal and I can go back to the faith of my forefathers"?

6. Will there be any events / interactions between POPs (not POP vs. State) based on their religion or culture? Such as anti-Greek riot in Canada or anti-Chinese riots in Peru?
 
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So the conversion/integration laws is only all or nothing based on categories? Or is there some way I can set different laws for different groups within the same category? For example, could I leave Budhism alone in a Germany with Christianity as state religion, but still convert say Animism?
 
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As people here have already mentioned, there should be an option for forced assimilation, because it was quite widely practiced during in the time period with Russification in Russian Empire being an example of this.
However, I want to also point out that there was another assimilation-related practice happening on the former Russian Empire's territory during the game's timeframe, which, ironically, is the opposite extreme to forced assimilation - state-backed de-assimilation/indigenization. I am talking about the Bolshevik Korenizatsiya - a wide-scale Soviet affirmative action program of reversing Russification, and promoting native ethnicities into government positions of their regions.
This should also be represented in the game, maybe even as an additional law in the Citizenship category, desired only by the far-left radicals. It was rightfully pointed out that homelands should only give heavy penalties to assimilitation instead blocking it, but the Indigenization law should actually completely block it, and probably even make people very slowly assimilating into a homeland culture instead.
 
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historically during the Russian Empire very few Jews or Muslims ever converted to Orthodox Christianity
I don't think this is factually correct.
 
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How will you prevent Ashkenazi Jews from being assimilated in Russia, while enabling them to be a degree assimilated in America, as according to the Dev Diaries logic most of the Jews in Russia will become Christian over time(as Russia has State Religion), but not assimilate culturally(As Russia will operate by National Supremacy/Cultural Exclusion). However, historically during the Russian Empire very few Jews or Muslims ever converted to Orthodox Christianity. Likewise, very few Catholics in Poland, Lithuania etc. Converted to Orthodoxy either.

Likewise in the Ottoman Empire there's no seperation of Church and State, and the state was generally culturally tolerant, but historically no populations culturally assimilated (though this might be covered by cultural homelands), and there was hardly any conversion of Islam at all.
well the awnser to those questions to seems like the following, yes the askhenazi will convert to orthodoxy, but if the player does not set up the country with religious education, the total amount of convert will be verry low, some sure, but no enough in a 100 years time to cause major social changes, i think much the same applies to the the case of the ottoman empire
 
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What are those other traits (other than heritage)? Much more examples would be useful of populations with different heritage but that share otger trait. Could it be for example for Turks and Albanians? (Legacy of centuries of Ottoman Empire)
 
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