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Dev Diary #91 - Altering the Alps and Idealizing Italy

Hello there! I hope everyone’s summer is going well, and that you are as excited for this week’s Dev Diary as I am to write it!


As I mentioned last time, this week we are going to take a look at the area around the Alps, as well as take a look at Italy. For our first preview, we will take a look at the western Alps, around the Kingdom of Burgundy, southern Germany and northern Italy.


Keep in mind that not all the changes are finalized, so there might be more updates before everything goes live. All the pictures will be taken from 1066 and with De Jure map modes, so things might look somewhat different in other bookmarks.

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So the first change we will be talking about is the changes to the County of Burgundy. We have cut it up, and made it into its own Duchy (of Franche Comté). The old Duchy of Upper Burgundy has lost its headway into the Swiss heartlands as well, moving the county of Schwyz (old Grisons), Zurichgau (old Schwyz) and Thurgau (old St. Gallen) into the new Duchy of Upper Swabia. In the later starting date, they will be part of the Duchy of Switzerland instead of Upper Swabia, a change that can happen throughout a game as well.

The county of Vaud has been added to the game, to the old Duchy of Upper Burgundy, cut out of certain parts of Geneva and Neuchatel. The final noticeable change on this side of the Alps, is that we have added Aosta to the mountains between Savoy and Italy.

For that part of the Alps, we wanted to make smaller changes, cut up some of the larger provinces and fix a lot of the barony errors and some of the county errors (see Schwyz further up the text). It was important for us to try and fix a lot of these minor issues, as it felt weird seeing some areas so misplaced on the map.

On the other side of the Alps, we have cut up some of the larger provinces. Monferrato has been cut up to make room for Ivrea, Lombardy has been cut up to make room for Milano, Como and Leventina, and Genoa has been cut up to make room for Noli.

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We can start out in Italy, where we left off from the previous picture. Trent has been turned into its own minor Duchy, opening up Brenner Pass between Bozen and Innsbruck. Innsbruck and Tirol has moved a bit westwards, to make room for Pongau as part of the new Duchy of Salzburg. In Bavaria, we have added the county of Regensburg, as it was the capital of the Duchy for quite a while, and we wanted to see that reflected in the game. Passau has also been moved into the Duchy.

To the east, Austria has gotten quite the rework. We have added Traungau, Steyr Freistadt, Krems and Melk as Counties, moved Znojmo into Bohemia and Passau, as previously mentioned, into Bavaria, and Styria has been moved south into its own Duchy. The Duchy of Carinthia has been cut up into Carinthia and Carniola, and the Duchy of Friuli has been added around Aquileia.

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So for our last location, we have central Italy. I figure I will talk about the mountains first, as we have added parts of the Apennines throughout Italy. We’ve felt this has increased the tactical value of Italy somewhat, as the choices you make for movement and county conquering feels a bit more valuable, and we also felt it cut up the county more nicely, particularly considering the new Kingdom we added in central Italy (this will be discussed further down).

We have added Perugia into the Duchy of Spoleto, moving the whole Duchy a bit further north. Rimini has been added to the Duchy of Ancona, turned the two county Duchy into a three county one, to lessen the amount of chokepoints post-mountainfication.For the old county of Aprutium, we have turned it into the Duchy of Abruzzo and moved it into the Kingdom of Sicily. And we have taken parts of the old County of Firenze, and added the county of Arezzo, to make sure Firenze doesn’t stick its fingers into everyone else, as it has had a tendency to do.

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So for what I assume will be the most controversial change to the region, the two new Kingdoms added.

For Carinthia, it felt weird giving even more land to a Kingdom that is meant to reflect the historical Stem-Duchy of Bavaria, when we have the Principality of Carantania, the March of Carinthia and later on the Duchy of Carinthia as inspiration that could take the same role. We have made sure, as this is quite the small Kingdom with a lot of land held by the same person in some bookmarked starts, that the AI won’t create the Kingdom right away, so it should be more of a player goal than an AI goal.

And… For Romagna, we wanted to cut Italy into its more historical pieces, without adding a Kingdom called “the Papal States” that was only for an unplayable Theocracy. This was done for several reason: having the Pope try to seek out central Italy as he did throughout history, having the old East Roman areas be more difficult to hold onto for the Kingdom of Italy in the first bookmarks, and to lessen the massive size of the Kingdom of Italy.

So I hope the Dev Diary didn’t get too wordy this time around, and that people can learn to love the changes made to the region! Next time around, we will have a (probably smaller) Dev Diary about the changes made to Holy Orders in Holy Fury!

PS. For those of you with an interest in the Habsburg jaw and the Archduchy of Austria, we have something special for you as well! (A special decision to create the Archduchy.)

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This is what I meant:
In this picture Pope Gregorius VII is not only Pope but also 'King-Bishop of Italy' (which is an abomination and horrible travesty!).

I don't want 'King-Bishop of Romagna' as one of the Pope's titles!

That's in the tooltip (only) for christ's sake. Pretty much drama queen here, eh ?
Sorry, but seriously ? o_O
 
Be that as it may, that's how it really went down IRL.

For over 1000 years.

Get over it
The title 'King-Bishop' was never one of the Pope's titles!
 
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And the King of England was never Earl of London/MIddlesex...
That's not comparable at all!

"King-bishop" isn't even a historical title. It'd be like calling the King of France 'Grand Poobah' or something.
 
That's not comparable at all!

"King-bishop" isn't even a historical title. It'd be like calling the King of France 'Grand Poobah' or something.
So what exactly are you suggesting? That catholic theocracies should never hold king-level titles?
 
That's not comparable at all!

"King-bishop" isn't even a historical title. It'd be like calling the King of France 'Grand Poobah' or something.

Well, the Pope has had (and still does have) some additional titles - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocese_of_Rome#Bishop_of_Rome - it'll just be a matter of looking over them and finding one that fits best.

So what exactly are you suggesting? That catholic theocracies should never hold king-level titles?

Maybe it would be a good idea to review the titles in use for Christian Clerics in-game at the moment? According to the CKII Wiki, the current hierarchy is;

Baron - Bishop
Count - Prince-Bishop (Metropolitan for Orthodox)
Duke - Prince-Archbishop
King - King-Bishop
Emperor - Emperor-Bishop

I must admit those last few titles do seem a bit strange. Perhaps it'd work better with something like this?

Baron - Bishop
Count - Prince-Bishop
Duke - Archbishop
King - Major Archbishop
Emperor - Patriarch

Alternatively, perhaps King could be Patriarch - which would make sense considering the Ecumenical Patriarchate for Orthodoxy is represented with a king-tier title - so that way the Pope could be the "Patriarch of Rome/Romagna" in-game? I wonder if Patriarch would work just fine as a title for both King and Emperor, actually...
 
Perhaps it'd work better with something like this?

Baron - Bishop
Count - Prince-Bishop
Duke - Archbishop
King - Major Archbishop
Emperor - Patriarch
I really like this. It has always seemed awkward to me that the head of a baron-tier church was called a bishop, given that these oversee a diocese (that is, a large geographical area.)

If you don't mind, I'd like to adjust this hierarchy:

Baron - Prelate
Count - Pastor/Presbyter
Duke - Bishop
King - Archbishop/Metropolitan
Emperor - Patriarch

Hope this feels better than what we have right now, and help organize the clerical ranks adjusted to the feudal tiers of the game.
 
I really like this. It has always seemed awkward to me that the head of a baron-tier church was called a bishop, given that these oversee a diocese (that is, a large geographical area.)

If you don't mind, I'd like to adjust this hierarchy:

Baron - Prelate
Count - Pastor/Presbyter
Duke - Bishop
King - Archbishop/Metropolitan
Emperor - Patriarch

Hope this feels better than what we have right now, and help organize the clerical ranks adjusted to the feudal tiers of the game.

I like it, but I think we need to keep Archbishop as the Duke-level title, so we can represent the different level of ecclesiastical principalities within the Holy Roman Empire with them (for instance, the Archbishopric of Cologne would hold the Duchy of Cologne, while the Bishop of Bamberg would just hold a county). Although...I suppose that's bound to fail eventually considering the Bishop of Wurzburg also held the title of Duke of Franconia, so him having that in-game would mean he's treated as an Archbishop? I suppose we could just use "Prince-Bishop" to refer to both Bishops and Archbishops, actually?
 
I really like this. It has always seemed awkward to me that the head of a baron-tier church was called a bishop, given that these oversee a diocese (that is, a large geographical area.)

If you don't mind, I'd like to adjust this hierarchy:

Baron - Prelate
Count - Pastor/Presbyter
Duke - Bishop
King - Archbishop/Metropolitan
Emperor - Patriarch

Hope this feels better than what we have right now, and help organize the clerical ranks adjusted to the feudal tiers of the game.

This would mean the Archbishop of Cologne, whcih is landed, would need a kingdom title... no.
Also Pastor and Presbyter are bad. They were never landed and never as powerful as counts. If something is added belov bishops it should be Abbots. There were a lot of powerful landed abbots during this era.
 
This would mean the Archbishop of Cologne, whcih is landed, would need a kingdom title... no.
Also Pastor and Presbyter are bad. They were never landed and never as powerful as counts. If something is added belov bishops it should be Abbots. There were a lot of powerful landed abbots during this era.
I thought about Abbot, but it's not good, since an abbot is the head of an abbey, or monastery, which could contain large tracts of land but ultimately is secluded and not part of the larger organization of the church.

On the other hand, a Parish is a territorial entity which forms part of a diocese and is headed by a Priest, a word descended from Presbyter.
 
I thought about Abbot, but it's not good, since an abbot is the head of an abbey, or monastery, which could contain large tracts of land but ultimately is secluded and not part of the larger organization of the church.

On the other hand, a Parish is a territorial entity which forms part of a diocese and is headed by a Priest, a word descended from Presbyter.

Tell me how many parishes were landed compared to how many monasteries were landed and part of the feudalistic system. It makes in the context of CK2 way more sense.
 
Tell me how many parishes were landed compared to how many monasteries were landed and part of the feudalistic system. It makes in the context of CK2 way more sense.
Mmmmm... during CK2's timeframe? I don't know. Do you?

If you'll excuse the crudeness of current data from Wikipedia, then there's about 3600 abbeys and monasteries worldwide, of which only a handful are territorial abbeys (a territorial abbot is the equivalent of a bishop)

On the other hand there are over 645 archdioceses and 2236 dioceses, each of which is constituted by many parishes. Just as an example, this is the diocese of Metz, which has, as of 2016, 649 parishes within it. (Ok, so not every diocese has so many parishes, some have 100 and some have 16, but you get the idea that the parishes are more in number).
This doesn't take into account that there are also territorial parishes, that is, parishes that don't belong to a diocese, but have a geographical boundary.

With this I'm trying to show that an abbey is an entity by itself (with very few exceptions), whereas a parish is an element of something bigger: a Parish is a part of a Diocese, which is a part of an Ecclesiastical Province, which is part of an Episcopal Conference, etc.
 
Mmmmm... during CK2's timeframe? I don't know. Do you?

If you'll excuse the crudeness of current data from Wikipedia, then there's about 3600 abbeys and monasteries worldwide, of which only a handful are territorial abbeys (a territorial abbot is the equivalent of a bishop)

On the other hand there are over 645 archdioceses and 2236 dioceses, each of which is constituted by many parishes. Just as an example, this is the diocese of Metz, which has, as of 2016, 649 parishes within it. (Ok, so not every diocese has so many parishes, some have 100 and some have 16, but you get the idea that the parishes are more in number).
This doesn't take into account that there are also territorial parishes, that is, parishes that don't belong to a diocese, but have a geographical boundary.

With this I'm trying to show that an abbey is an entity by itself (with very few exceptions), whereas a parish is an element of something bigger: a Parish is a part of a Diocese, which is a part of an Ecclesiastical Province, which is part of an Episcopal Conference, etc.

There was NO parish which was landet I know of. They were absolutelly unimportant during this era. And only a handful of landed monasteries? You are looking into modern era. Here's a list for you of the secular monasteries in the HRE:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Imperial_abbeys

This is way more than just a handful. And many of them were politcally important.
 
There was NO parish which was landet I know of. They were absolutelly unimportant during this era. And only a handful of landed monasteries? You are looking into modern era. Here's a list for you of the secular monasteries in the HRE:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Imperial_abbeys

This is way more than just a handful. And many of them were politcally important.
Yeah, sure, but what's the higher tier of an abbey? None. It functions only to itself.

Parishes make up Dioceses, which make up etcetera...
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Regioni_ecclesiastiche_Italia.png

Doesn't the map of Spain looks an awful lot to the Counties map of CK2? In similar fashion, the maps of the Ecclesiastic Provinces of France and Italy look a lot like De Jure Duchies map
 
Yeah, sure, but what's the higher tier of an abbey? None. It functions only to itself.

Parishes make up Dioceses, which make up etcetera...
Diocesis.PNG

675px-France_ecc_1789_1802.jpg

Regioni_ecclesiastiche_Italia.png

Doesn't the map of Spain looks an awful lot to the Counties map of CK2? In similar fashion, the maps of the Ecclesiastic Provinces of France and Italy look a lot like De Jure Duchies map

Yes. But the ingame map is about political structure. Not exclastical one. Parishes don't make sense on the political map of this era. Many secular Bishops were only as small as counties etc.
 
Yes. But the ingame map is about political structure. Not exclastical one. Parishes don't make sense on the political map of this era. Many secular Bishops were only as small as counties etc.
But we're talking about the Pope and his potential to hold a king-tier or emperor-tier title. It does make sense to explore the hierarchy of the other tiers and what they'd be named, since the clergy would make up the political structure of the realm, as well as the religious one.
 
But we're talking about the Pope and his potential to hold a king-tier or emperor-tier title. It does make sense to explore the hierarchy of the other tiers and what they'd be named, since the clergy would make up the political structure of the realm, as well as the religious one.
Well, there were historical prince-abbots and their female equivalent. See Fürstabt for the Holy Roman Empire.
Likewise, we had Fürstbischöfe, with Mainz, Köln and Trier being Kurfürstentum and Fürsterzbistum.

In France , the archbishop of Reims was also the count of Reims.
 
But we're talking about the Pope and his potential to hold a king-tier or emperor-tier title. It does make sense to explore the hierarchy of the other tiers and what they'd be named, since the clergy would make up the political structure of the realm, as well as the religious one.
I don't think church hierarchy really needs that important overhaul. The whole discussion started because one of those who just don't want kingdom of Romagna found this as a way to whine against it.

But if we admit this as real and sensefull discussion...
The fact is that church prelates did not have higher titles than duke-tier.
If we compare medieval reality with CK2 map, it is obvious that bishoprics/dioceses match the size of CK2 counties or duchies and most of archbishoprics fit to the size of CK2 duchies. Thus those two tiers are pretty much clear:
county level = bishop
duchy level = archbishop

None of historical prelates have ever controlled a territory matching to CK2 kingdom. Except for the Pope, who has controlled the territory of Romagna kingdom as presented in this DD.

In fact I think that the titles for church landed characters should end at duchy.. so there should be "Bishop/ric of Liege" "archbishop of Cologne" etc. but the only higher catholic title shoud be "Pope", which should obviously not be tied to any territory. And the game should simply disallow having king-bishop or any such titles at all.
In case of Orthodox church and perhaps catholic heresies, the king-tier level should be called Patriarch and these could have some land-tied designation.

And lastly as for Abbots or other titles for barony-tier titles.
That depends on our interpretation of church holdings. The way they are designed in fact resembles them as monasteries and most of ecclesiastic holdings on map are in fact various monasteries. Thus having holders of those titles as abbots makes perfect sense. Also in CK2 time periods monasteries were indeed very important land-holders as well as important political figures, often influencing also the other ecclesiastic hierarchy.

OTOH the argument that monasteries were not part of hierarchy which included bishops archbishops and popes is indeed valid. The question is. Should holder of barony of Clairvaux, Melk etc. be called abbot, as was in history, or should we do more artificial eingineering and use some other title?

For above mentioned reasons, I would prefer abbots.
 
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Well, with that in mind, perhaps it'd work best as;
*Baron - Abbot
*Count - Bishop
*Duke - Archbishop
*King - Patriarch

I'm not entirely sure what to suggest for Emperor...we could just use Patriarch again, considering that it's highly unlikely we'll get a scenario where an ecclesiastical leader actually gets a title of that level. Or perhaps we could just use "Emperor" for them as well...hypothetically, if they made it to that level, they'd have no superior under God (save for the Pope, unless they decided to use their new position to usurp the title from them). I disagree that we should try and stop clerics from holding titles higher than Duke; that sort of thing just limits possibilities for interesting scenarios in-game in the long run.