• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
2017_10_26_1.png


Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
2017_10_26_2.png


As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
2017_10_26_3.png


As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
2017_10_26_4.png


Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
2017_10_26_5.png


Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
2017_10_26_6.png

2017_10_26_10.png


Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
2017_10_26_1.png

2017_10_26_4.png


Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
2017_10_26_7.png


Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
2017_10_26_8.png


Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
2017_10_26_2.png


Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
2017_10_26_3.png


One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
Last edited:
I suspect the reply to Admiral Pickard is more like: "Sir, if we don't disable the massive military installation that would allow the enemy to retake the planet without even going to warp, there's no point to taking the planet."
yea, like medieval castles weren't always physically in the way, but marching on without capturing them would just mean you get stabbed in the back really hard

Having Starbases massively increase the speed with which friendly ships can travel into that system (reducing their warp cooldowns and whatnot) would provide justification for needing to capture the station, and also help with the irritation of it taking a year to move your fleet from one end of your large empire to the other. If that bonus increased with Starbase size, it would be like infrastructure. Roads in space!
 
I do understand both sides in the "fluid borders" argument. On one side it could be annoying to start a war because the border moved by 1mm and now a major resource system is technicallly "foreign". On the other hand, dynamic obrders gave you an indirect way to compete with an opposing empire without going to war. I would really miss this whole layer of strategy disappearing.

Since the game will rely on starbases to determine ownership, how about some "contested ownership areas"? Some basic rules like "does not have a colony or lvl3 starbase within distance X for any faction" would create a border zones where ownership could be fluid and be pushed by one faction or the other. Similar systems were in Victoria II in colonies where you competed before it finally became "your" territory. Perhaps maybe even add a system like "war beween colonial nations" from" EU4.

I agree with your point. Border tensions can (and should) be more than a diplomatic malus that you probably doesn´t really care about. The current form of dynamic borders can give you excuses/pretexts for war, which is always a desirable element in a Grand Strategy game.

Sure, the system can (and should) be expanded and improved. Essentially nuking it with this new Starbase system seem to be not only NOT adding to the game, but instead, removing a feature.
 
I'm going to leave the micro discussion where it stands for now and just say this: As I wrote in the dev diary, our aim is absolutely not to just add a bunch of tedium to the game. I think once you guys see how it actually works in practice, you'll understand that.

I'm willing to wait and see how future dev diaries flesh this out but I do have concerns. I think it's overly reductive to discuss whether something is 'micro' based on how many clicks it requires. I agree with Wiz's early comment that it should be about strategy. On that level though, under the current border system, you could choose which system to newly colonize or to claim in a war not just based on the resources/colonies in that system, but based on all of the surrounding systems that would fall within its borders (and systems which would later fall into its borders with expansion/tech upgrades). It seems like that level of strategy is going away under the new mechanic and I think that's a shame. It can potentially be compensated for by rebalancing costs/war score values, but at first glance it does appear that this would limit expansion and make a 'wide' play-style tougher. I trust that Wiz and the dev team are dedicated to making sure that 'tall' and 'wide' play styles are equally viable, but as someone who prefers playing 'wide' on maps with many star systems the idea of having to claim each individually rather than claiming core 'hub' systems and letting borders envelop the rest seems less fun to me.

I am quite happy to hear that defensive capabilities of starbases are being upgraded to make them able to withstand combat with fleets. It seems like this opens up a huge number of options for defensive play styles (perhaps that would go well with xenophobic ethos) that didn't exist before when all the firepower was concentrated in fleets rather than fixed defenses. So much of this is going to come down to the implementation on the level of resource costs and combat values that I think it makes sense for folks to wait and see how things play out. Especially keeping in mind that Wiz and the dev team consciously chose to announce major changes this far out from a release date, with playtesting ongoing, I'm sure that there's plenty of time to incorporate community feedback and end up with a final product that's an upgrade and not a setback. Keep up the good work.
 
The way borders were defined was one of the issues that made the midgame so static; all the spaces are claimed, even if that claim was just a line on a map, so the only way to expand is to declare a major war and eat your neighbours' planets.
That's not my experience. The midgame is where you can push borders a lot. There is value, in for example, in colonising a poor planet next to your borders, to push them further out and take stars from another empire. A more risky strategy is the outpost border push. In multiplayer, these actions will be part of contest between allied or federated players. Or a cause of war for those who aren't.

The existing system is limited but it's very important, so I would hope it gets expanded, not just removed.
 
I'm going to leave the micro discussion where it stands for now and just say this: As I wrote in the dev diary, our aim is absolutely not to just add a bunch of tedium to the game. I think once you guys see how it actually works in practice, you'll understand that.
I'd go as far as adding that anyone who is concerned with micro is welcome to give "Master of Orion 3" a go.
 
I'm willing to wait and see how future dev diaries flesh this out but I do have concerns. I think it's overly reductive to discuss whether something is 'micro' based on how many clicks it requires.

I agree that "micro" is probably the wrong term for the quality of "how does it feel to interact with the game."
 
To all the people complaining about Starports being near the sun: think of it less like a factory, and more like a castle or stronghold. A stronghold is a fortified position that allows you to exert control over an area because it is well defended. They can't just be ignored, because as someone else pointed out, you'll just get stabbed in the back that way.

And where do you put a stronghold? Not in the most convenient place, but in the most defensible place. You put it on top of the highest hill with only one access point, not at the crossroads. The emphasis is on making it hard to capture.

In Stellaris, the area closest to the sun is equivalent to the "highest hill." Ships can only enter a system from the outer edges of the solar system, which means that close to the center of the system is the place that requires the longest travel time to reach. That exposes invaders to the maximum possible amount of fire from the station before they can reach it and take it over.

Now, to really capitalize on this advantage, it would be nice if Starbases were given extra range on their weapons, or an unusually large number of spinal mounts or something like that.
 
Idont really see the micro issues at play.

Look at the minimum to claim a volume in each case.

Present: Click system, click world, click to select what planet/pop type will make the colony, click to place initalcolony on world > Claim, variable abount of sytsems seldom clear. (4 clicks) (its the same 3 clicks below to plant an outpost too) Periodically have to eyeball to see where your borders have exapnded to to claim worlds, lot of uncertainty.

New: Click builder. Right click system. Left click 'Build outpost'. 3 clicks 1 system certain.

You are loosing some slight inefficency, but it means far less risk of upsetting the xenophobe FE or the like, and if every system has resorces, it starts intoa zone of 'fewer, more significant choices' that I like, and can only hope is adopted in a less nit-picky redo of planetary management.
 
Lore-wise, Imagine yourself as a soldier stationed in one of the planets in a system whose Starbase has been taken: Can you imagine yourself saying something akin to: "Ah, well, the aliens have occupied that base billions of kilometers away form here... Guess I work for them now."

From what I understand, if there is a colony in the system, it will still be of the original owner.
 
empire home systems will now start surveyed

Aww no more Jupiter being a fake gas giant. 0/10 update. uninstalled.
 
My main concern for this is border gore. The AI, while it gets a bad rap I think for certain well known hitches in its step, does give me concern about how properly it can set it borders. Nothing would be more immersion breaking than seeing an entire galaxy of hideous snakey borders wrapping around and in themselves.

It's tricky to balance because players will be trying to cut off systems and pick and choose as much as the "it costs more to do so" allows in order to gain advantage. So you can't have the AI completely ignoring that and just blobbing entirely normally for the sake of pretty borders. But again I fear without that galaxy borders will be a complete mess.
 
That's not my experience. The midgame is where you can push borders a lot. There is value, in for example, in colonising a poor planet next to your borders, to push them further out and take stars from another empire. A more risky strategy is the outpost border push. In multiplayer, these actions will be part of contest between allied or federated players. Or a cause of war for those who aren't.

The existing system is limited but it's very important, so I would hope it gets expanded, not just removed.

Border pushing right now makes no sense at all if you think about it, except from a very abstracted, game-y perspective.

"We're from the new Federation colony at Hydrae IV. Sorry, Klingons, but this mining station is Federation property now."

"But this has been Klingon territory for hundreds of years!"

"Well, suck it up. We can't have the border so close to one of our planets."

"But--" *sigh* "Fine."

*A few weeks later, the Klingon Empire declared war on the United Federation of Planets and utterly crushed them with their far superior navy, forcing them to hand over the planet of Hydrae IV and make several border adjustments. One questions why they did not simply contest the Federation's encroachment into their space to begin with.*
 
You put it on top of the highest hill with only one access point, not at the crossroads. The emphasis is on making it hard to capture.
Actually yes, I put some of my castles at crossroads. The reason is simple: both trade and troops movement goes better when you have any roads to move on, so my crossroad castle bith allow me tax traders and reduce enemy mobility.
 
Because it's really stupid that your species has developed interstellar travel and have powerful enough drives that they can cross a system in weeks to months, but they haven't even bothered to explore their home planet's moon? I mean, come on.

Moon and the far reaches of the system completely surveyed and resources identified aren't the same thing, now are they.