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Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
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Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
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As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
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As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
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Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
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Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
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Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
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Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
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Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
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Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
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Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
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One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
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Now that I am thinking about it, a question about border friction. Will it work the same as ever, or will it take hyperlane roads into account instead, or both?
 
So, since the starbase controls the system, do we still need to invade a planet? Or is there a way to just take out the starbase and make it switch allegiance?

It was explained that a planet can be invaded only after the Starbase is conquered.

It would also be logical that all the negative effects of the newly conquered civ would still apply.
 
I have some concerns, mod-wise. Can starbases be modded to orbit a planet instead and allow for up to two? We have Star Trek mod here and starbases normally orbits a planet in Star Trek lore. And I say two because in the lore we had shipyards at both Earth and Mars... unless you are planning to add shipyards as a separate stations.
 
I really love Stellaris, and what you all have done with the game since launch which is why it's pretty distressing that this is the first dev diary where my initial, instinctual reaction is "I hate everything about this" like what am I gonna do, play 1.8 forever? I hate that I'm gonna have to laboriously claim systems one at a time by building hundreds of outposts over the course of a game; I hate that this is gonna make expansion and thus game progression in general slower; I hate that this is going to make borders even more concrete going in to the mid/late game; I hate that colonization will no longer have a strategic element common to games like Civilization where I'm picking the best planet/tile not only for the specific city/colony but to claim territory for my empire by planting a flag there and getting boots on the ground; I hate that influence is gonna become both more important and more of a total shit-show with regards to the wide verity of things that it's used for; I hate that my borders are gonna end up looking like a swiss cheese 'cause there will always be a bunch of systems that are moderately worthless and deep inside my actual zone of control (ie. what the old borders represented); I hate the incoming border-gore that's gonna be caused by me ignoring a system with 1 worthless energy resource in the star and an AI building an outpost there despite it being next to a bunch of my colonies. TL;DR: every one of the 37 trillion cells in my body is filled with hate right now.
 
I tried speed-reading the whole thread but I'm out of time, so sorry if this has been already discussed. One of the major issues people seem to have with the game in its actual state and the upcoming changes is the sheer number of clicks necessary to do anything. I agree with them. I love this damn game, but I do find often find myself wishing the UI was more simple, especially regarding anything that has to do with war. Here are my three suggestions:

- Right now, the click-and-drag war demands system is excessively cumbersome and slow. And I don't expect the change announced in the DD to make things any better (quite the contrary, in fact). Any change that would allow you to select, on the galaxy map, the system you want to conquer/liberate would greatly alleviate the current system.

- We need either a ground troop designer or the ability to equip more than one troop at the same time. Right now, training and equiping one (ONE!!!!) troop takes 3 clicks. This is probably one of the most infuriating aspects of the game, actually. This gets really bad when you actually put off equipping soldiers because it's simply too time-consuming (75 clicks to equip defense troops on a size 25 planet... please. This is nothing short of torture. Slow death by click. I hereby blame all my future arthritis on Paradox.)

- Right now, if I want my sectors to build ships, I need to navigate to the system on the galaxy map, click on the system, click on the spaceport, and then click the one ship I want to have build. Repeat for all systems in the sector. Would it be at all feasible to simply order a fleet from a sector and let it decide where to build what? For exemple, I'd just click on the Covfefe Prime sector, click on an hypothetical "fleet production" button and simply order 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers and 8 corvettes and let the sector determine how best it could provide my with these ships in a timely manner.

Hope that's all clear.

JM
 
I like the changes, that kind of system is what I wanted to mod in anyway (one by one system claiming with bases) as the "border" in space seems odd, even more between stars (like light-years away, you can't even see what is happening there for a decade...)
 
Don't really like this change. Seems really strange that space empires would build a base around the star rather than on/around a perfectly habitable planet.

Also, how on earth do you pronounce 'Cherryh'? Is it just like cherry?
A star is a energy source. Makes sense to me.
 
I'm going to leave the micro discussion where it stands for now and just say this: As I wrote in the dev diary, our aim is absolutely not to just add a bunch of tedium to the game. I think once you guys see how it actually works in practice, you'll understand that.
So, I think I've missed the boat on Wiz responses (not that I usually get them) but, not knowing how this actually works, and realizing it's not even finalized internally, I think:

1. The big difference is, before, you'd click once to build one outpost or colony, and claim a whole group of systems (which may not include the ones you wanted). Depending on influence costs and income, expansion may happen considerably slower though, in which case even these increased click counts may be spread out.

2. If you have a system, 3 systems away, that you want to claim right now and damn the influence costs, it's reasonable that you just have to go out of your way, click it and say claim it.

3. If you wanna claim all neighboring systems to this one, that seems like a nice thing to make 1 click, and it could even queue it up based on available influence.

4. If you wanna claim a system 3 systems away, but aren't in a rush, you can click it once, and it'll queue shortest distance/cost expansion in that direction for you.

5. If you wanna claim 3 systems, with 7 systems total in between, and aren't in a rush, select all 3 with a click and drag (or all 10) and say "expand".

This would be a nice extension of a potential "build all power stations" or "build all mineral stations" set of buttons for construction ships, to automate that, as you mentioned.

Anyway, other kneejerk reactions:
1. Don't like that colonization or invasion can't be used to claim a system, with the same influence cost as building an outpost would have. Makes some logistical sense I guess, how are you delivering supplies to the colonies? But, then, how are supplies getting to the outpost, and how is the outpost delivering them to the colonies? And I see little gameplay reason (knowing only what I know now) to disallow this.

2. Love the home system being surveyed, some stations being built, and less random. Literally, earlier this morning, before reading any of this, I was thinking that's how things should be, and whether that's moddable, for home systems to be only semi-random like homeworlds are. And here it is!

2. I don't like that planets can't build corvettes. I understand this is 100% necessary, if their spaceports are no longer something that can be attacked/destroyed. But, giving them something similar to an outpost, but weaker offensively, not upgradeable, and easier to "deactivate" than a starport with shipyards, would be more thematic imo. And limit it to just corvettes.

3. I don't know how I feel about starting with a starport in the home system, when you just now developed interstellar travel. You were already planning the need for a starbase, in the system where your homeworld housing billions sits, rather than using that as a staging point? If you haven't developed FTL travel yet, the civilian ship production capacity of your homeworld would seem sufficient, definitely if it also includes corvettes as in #2. Your first starbase is for when you find another empire and suddenly feel paranoid about the galaxy. And can now foresee the need for more, larger ships... Just in case. Or at least once you've added a second system to your empire. But I guess it could be detrimental to gameplay, just an unnecessary hurdle? You start with all the tech to build one, just haven't decided where yet. Maybe it could already be halfway complete, and in process of being finished, but not actually done yet, just for show :p

4. I think, for aesthetic reasons, the starports should be slightly further from the star, so the swarm of platforms doesn't intersect it. I don't know whether the radius of the swarm is such that this would be possible, without it also now being in engagement range of the system edge, though :/ Ideally, why wouldn't we put it in orbit between Earth and Venus, for example? I mean, barring physics reasons, but Stellaris hasn't concerned itself with stable orbits before :p it would be awesome, wherever it is, if it actually gained an orbit circle like a planet!

5. Love pretty much everything else about the starbases. The customizability, the consolidation of shipyards, looks like it'll be fun to set up. And the power of the defensive swarm... Yes!
 
You missed the point.

In the early game/early-mid, you'll be grabbing strategic systems via frontier outposts. This is the same as it is now. You'll inevitably end up with some kind of roughly outlined area of space that has no habitable planets within it, and so no reason for anyone else to expand into.

In the later parts of the midgame, outside of war, you'll just be spamming frontier outposts to grab all the in-between systems to fill out your borders, having already made all the "interesting" decisions. Nobody else will be able to get to them because they're basically within your borders, and they'll be extremely cheap because you already surround them. In the current game, this would happen automatically as your borders fill out. Now, it'll happen through 3 clicks per star system.

I see your point, but I'm not yet convinced that it will become a problem. Obviously sooner or later an empire will surround a fairly mundane system(s) that nobody else is going to get into, but I would have to have a fairly large number of them before I'll consider them to be a chore to build outposts to. If the process will happen gradually, I also won't mind it as much. Also, in the new system the competition for systems could last longer, as you can't just cover 3-5 systems with a single outpost, instead giving your neighbors more opportunities to grab systems and reducing the number of uninteresting systems you'll end up within your borders.

While ensuring that we don't end up with bad UI or unnecessary clicks is important, this kinda overshadows the reasons the new system in being introduced. To me it makes perfect sense that a empire can't claim a system where it has never been to and stop another empire it has never met to ever visiting it, without any sort of localized enforcement (starbase). This also fixes the issue of nobody really being sure which neighboring system will actually change hands if I conquer/colonize a planet near another empire's border etc. Those are huge improvements worth making a few clicks more and in the best case scenario, you can choose a constructor ship, click a button to build an outpost, hold shift and click any number of systems on the galaxy map. No more clicks that assigning a same number of systems to a sector.
 
Please something about doomstacks in the update please
They already confirmed it would be addressed in this patch. See here for image teasers

I have some concerns, mod-wise. Can starbases be modded to orbit a planet instead and allow for up to two? We have Star Trek mod here and starbases normally orbits a planet in Star Trek lore. And I say two because in the lore we had shipyards at both Earth and Mars... unless you are planning to add shipyards as a separate stations.
It would seem to stem from a consistency standpoint -- you know exactly where it is when the system view is opened.
Shipyards are part of starbases.

- Right now, the click-and-drag war demands system is excessively cumbersome and slow. And I don't expect the change announced in the DD to make things any better (quite the contrary, in fact). Any change that would allow you to select, on the galaxy map, the system you want to conquer/liberate would greatly alleviate the current system.
With the new system [unlike the old] this would be possible.
 
Getting away from arguing about the old system vs the new system, are there plans to rework space piracy/monsters to interact with the new outposts?

One idea I have is that space pirates could have their own territory in the form of outposts of their own and mining stations, but no planets. Their entire economy is purely space resource and raiding based.

Then give them the option to raid/destroy outposts and maybe even capture them, so you can't just expand recklessly. If you let them expand too much they could snowball into a massive problem plaguing your territory. Maybe also add the option to bribe them to stop attacking you or to act as deniable privateers?

Then as a reward for wiping them out you could take over their old starbases and outposts, netting you an easy expansion.
 
Choosing which system to expand to is absolutely a strategic decision, because you can't simply expand to them all. That's like saying choosing which rival you'll declare war on first isn't a strategic decision because your long-term plan is to attack them all.
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Not my game but this would for sure be a tedious thing to do with your proposed changes on a 1000 star galaxy. Not all 1000 stars are going to be an important strategic decision.
 
Why does it specifically have to be only *after*you've developed FTL travel? Was the research into faster than light travel sucking up the entire space program's budget like some sort of monetary black hole?

The game does not simulate budgetary concerns pre-start, but for some playthroughs, yes, maybe so. I am voicing a concern about the loss of gameplay and your attempt at a clever reply does nothing to rebut the concern. Nice try though.
 
@Wiz :

I'm pretty ambivalent about this idea.

I like some aspects of it (much more logical borders, tossing out the terrible Wargoals garbage), but I'm really not liking how it sidelines colonized worlds, which should be the most significant places of power.
At the very least, a colonized world should be its own starbase.

I also liked the "you just got out your home planet, now explore your home system" and would be sad to see it go.

I'm not a fan of the concept of "you can have only X items". Limits should be organic, not some arbitrary number. Same for "there is only one starbase per system". It really sounds too game-like to me.

I like that Starbase could concentrate ship production, and that colonized worlds are more about civilian ships.

Starbase not being destroyable is just completely stupid. I certainly hope it doesn't make it live, because it's, yeah, really really stupid. Seriously.

I think there is still a lot of work to do on the very concept, especially toning down the "game" aspect in favour of the "immersion" one and making planets more important instead of putting everything in the Starbases.
 
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I really love Stellaris, and what you all have done with the game since launch which is why it's pretty distressing that this is the first dev diary where my initial, instinctual reaction is "I hate everything about this" like what am I gonna do, play 1.8 forever? I hate that I'm gonna have to laboriously claim systems one at a time by building hundreds of outposts over the course of a game; I hate that this is gonna make expansion and thus game progression in general slower; I hate that this is going to make borders even more concrete going in to the mid/late game; I hate that colonization will no longer have a strategic element common to games like Civilization where I'm picking the best planet/tile not only for the specific city/colony but to claim territory for my empire by planting a flag there and getting boots on the ground; I hate that influence is gonna become both more important and more of a total shit-show with regards to the wide verity of things that it's used for; I hate that my borders are gonna end up looking like a swiss cheese 'cause there will always be a bunch of systems that are moderately worthless and deep inside my actual zone of control (ie. what the old borders represented); I hate the incoming border-gore that's gonna be caused by me ignoring a system with 1 worthless energy resource in the star and an AI building an outpost there despite it being next to a bunch of my colonies. TL;DR: every one of the 37 trillion cells in my body is filled with hate right now.

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Not my game but this would for sure be a tedious thing to do with your proposed changes on a 1000 star galaxy. Not all 1000 stars are going to be an important strategic decision.

by hundreds do you mean you'll build 20% or higher of all outposts in a 1000 star map and not say... take them through conquest? if you have 20 other empires around you'll build probably a 100 at best for your most expansive options and then take the rest forcefully.