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Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
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Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
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As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
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As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
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Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
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Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
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Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
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Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
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Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
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Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
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Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
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One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
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Still, starbases are now the key, capturing planets just a formality. And if capturing starbase gives a lot of warscore, you wouldn't even need to land on planets much.
you need to capture planets to demand them.
 
But theres nothing stopping you from leaving? You just will have to emergency FTL? You wont have to go into combat to emergency FTL.
One of Wiz's twitter teaser screenshots shows that there's a module you can add to your Starbase that prevents FTL from leaving the system except emergency FTL- as in, the kind you can only engage in combat and that damages ships.
 
One of Wiz's twitter teaser screenshots shows that there's a module you can add to your Starbase that prevents FTL from leaving the system except emergency FTL- as in, the kind you can only engage in combat and that damages ships.

You don't need to engage combat for emergency ftl in the current version. If your ships are stuck behind closed borders, or your wormhole stations have been destroyed, you can issue a return command to your ships, triggering a prompt to activate emergency ftl. I'd assume it would work similarly for the ftl jammer as well.
 
One of Wiz's twitter teaser screenshots shows that there's a module you can add to your Starbase that prevents FTL from leaving the system except emergency FTL- as in, the kind you can only engage in combat and that damages ships.
I'd assume it would work similarly for the ftl jammer as well.

Yeah, just under the twitter picture he confirms emergency FTL can be done outside combat.
 
Cheers for the DD Wiz :D. Sounds like you and the team have been busy! The starbase solution sounds like a good idea to a bunch of things (particularly the problem of static defenses). Looking forward to hearing more about what's on the way with Cherryh.



As I thought about what I was going to write before I wrote this sentence, I'd like to note that all the keyboard presses involved in typing these words were mindless actions :D.



Random thought on reading this - what if you had star 'clusters' a little bit like EU4 has states and provinces. Make it possible to mine (or even outpost) all of the available planets in a cluster? Maybe make the clusters were player-redefinable within gameplay (as their main purpose would be as an administrative tool).

Orrrr.....(as there are already sectors as a player-defined administrative tool) you could perhaps allow sectors to extend beyond the edges of an empire? So you could 'paint' an external area for a sector to build starbases into? I like this second one better, imo - uses existing systems but could address micro worries - and there's still strategic decisions and cost required.

I am really interested in how we can integrate this new system into the sector system. Can we designate that sector expand on its own, within its sphere of influence production? Or, would that be too complicated for the AI? Instead, could use an expansion planner function, although this sort of defeats purpose of sector autonomy. I lean towards letting sectors expand on their own with a simple yes/no toggle, but I like the more procedurely elements of gameplay, and I can see how this might be annoying for a more top down focused player.
 
Well, my argument was based on gameplay. I like that Space Age primitives can spawn into one system minors. The new Starbase systems will require those Space Age primitives have at least a rank 1 Starbase in their system to function. Thus I care about their Starbase far more than I care about the Starbase of someone silly enough to build up a massive installation in territory he knew he'd be losing.

If this creates an immersion problem for you that's unfortunate, I say in the blandest and most indifferent possible way.
....Wait, If I have a colony in the system where a pre-FTL civ exists, and the civilization enters space age...then what will happen to the system?
This is what I was thinking of. If the system was empty save for my outpost, fine.

But if I have a colony in said system, or an upgraded starbase, I will absolutely go full Purifier if they just take over. At the very least the system should be contested like they get now, especially since some empires and factions will dislike you if you interfere with 'primitives'
 
Still, starbases are now the key, capturing planets just a formality. And if capturing starbase gives a lot of warscore, you wouldn't even need to land on planets much.

Capturing planets was largely a formality anyway. Once you'd taken out the opponent's capital fleet, you could concentrate your entire invasion force against a single planet.

That's a fight you were never in much danger of losing.
 
How starbases will be inetgrated with existing interface? Now I click on my first planet from the list in the right corner, upgrade buildings, then click on spaceport and purchase couple ships, then click on the second planet and repeat. With starbases I will have new list in the right corner (I mean all stuff existing now + starbases? Thanks god, we can hide categories in the right menu). Also I am afraid that sector's AI will build crap on its starbases and that in 2300 or 2400 so in 1000 star galaxy we will have 400-500 outposts and starbases. I really liked the old system with dynamic borders, border friction, when you build a couple of outposts to claim territory and grab empty colonizable planet from the neighbor. it was like border diputes IRL and making the game more lively. Also I'm used to thinking about boreders in Stellaris like borders in the movie "Fifth Element"
 
Hello,

Thank you for your fabulous work ;) but i have question about next DLC.

Do you have news about Dreadnought / Titan ship (it's very not cool , we can"t built it and we see it in Fallen empire) ?

Sorry for my English.
 
OK let me start by saying when first started read i was like why are you doing this. Having played over 500+Hr of your game. I am really not to happy with this change unless you make all jumps into the system land next to the star. let me explain please. But i must say i understand some of what you are trying to do.


Why would you build a start base all the way out at the sun and not next to the planets you are protecting your empire and what is your empire people and where are they on the planets.


The only reason for building one out there is if you are going to make all the jumps into the system land next to the star. Like in Jack Campbell’s novels or like in Elite (computer game). then yes you would have a big traffic control / defence station there. this i can see working. But also you may want to be able to place the stations were you want ie if you had two starts ( still don’t know why you have not implemented multi star system in your game but that another story) in system you could move it between them or even place it next to habitable planets. Also you may want warp engines to land on out edge of a system to make game play more interesting. As you can conquer planets without conquering the system. May be hold enemy pop to ransom to make star base give up without fight only idea
 
This is what I was thinking of. If the system was empty save for my outpost, fine.

But if I have a colony in said system, or an upgraded starbase, I will absolutely go full Purifier if they just take over. At the very least the system should be contested like they get now, especially since some empires and factions will dislike you if you interfere with 'primitives'

I guess actually two things on this.

If you have a colony in the system, then I think your Starbase should remain, because while I'm fine with FTL enlightenment taking precedence over a system claim, I'm not fine with FTL enlightenment taking precedence over an actual other world. I'm honestly now sure how they're going to handle contested systems now that system claims are established by a single spot in the center of the system that, for game balance reasons, will probably only allow a single starbase. Honestly, I half expect what they're going to do is tweak primitives to spawn in systems with a single habitable world so that this situation never arises or only allow the lowest level of outposts in those systems so that stacking two on top of each other isn't bizarrely powerful.

From a gameplay standpoint though I think you have the right idea. Before you heavily invest resources in a system with atomic age, or space age primitives, you need a plan for those primitives, it's just irresponsible otherwise. If you're playing the kind of empire that can march 3 to 5 assault armies into the system for an immediate solution, great, it won't even cost you influence anymore because of the outpost you built. If you're not playing that kind of empire, familiarize yourself with enlightenment mechanics. You'll still lose your outpost, but at least you'll feel better about it falling into the hands of a protectorate that may eventually give it back.
 
I guess actually two things on this.

If you have a colony in the system, then I think your Starbase should remain, because while I'm fine with FTL enlightenment taking precedence over a system claim, I'm not fine with FTL enlightenment taking precedence over an actual other world. I'm honestly now sure how they're going to handle contested systems now that system claims are established by a single spot in the center of the system that, for game balance reasons, will probably only allow a single starbase. Honestly, I half expect what they're going to do is tweak primitives to spawn in systems with a single habitable world so that this situation never arises or only allow the lowest level of outposts in those systems so that stacking two on top of each other isn't bizarrely powerful.

From a gameplay standpoint though I think you have the right idea. Before you heavily invest resources in a system with atomic age, or space age primitives, you need a plan for those primitives, it's just irresponsible otherwise. If you're playing the kind of empire that can march 3 to 5 assault armies into the system for an immediate solution, great, it won't even cost you influence anymore because of the outpost you built. If you're not playing that kind of empire, familiarize yourself with enlightenment mechanics. You'll still lose your outpost, but at least you'll feel better about it falling into the hands of a protectorate that may eventually give it back.

He already said, that they are rethinking the whole pre-FTL thing and you will most likely have two options...either handing over the system or vassalizing them.
 
He already said, that they are rethinking the whole pre-FTL thing and you will most likely have two options...either handing over the system or vassalizing them.
I think he said Annexing them, not Vassalizing.
 
The original post is very direct and requires no inference.

Starbases ENTIRELY replace the old system of Frontier Outposts. Something that is ENTIRELY replaced has no place left to exist and is gone. Anything and everything that is the old system of Frontier Outposts will be replaced. Frontier Outposts in their original form will not exist in parallel with Starbases. Frontier Outposts relative position regarding the new rules will be the same as Cultural Expansion Pressure's relative position regarding the new rules, in that neither of them will exist. All functionality of the Frontier Outpost will be found in Starbases, or it will not exist.

Now do not let yourself become confused when the art assets are scavenged and reused. But that is not Outposts existing in the new rules, they will still have been entirely replaced, that is only their replacement taking a form that repurposes art assets.


look i'm not the one confused here. i've been dealing with people getting this confused for 40 pages or so. I made a simple request that this be clarified so so i can make a direct quote to that. you have to link 3 quotes to try to prove your point, that's inference. it requires reading of separate sections. I didn't even expect a response, but the real issue is why people had to explicitly say it was unnecessary when several people not knowing it, proves otherwise.

The original post is very direct and requires no inference.

then seriously why'd you have to quote 3 separate sections of the post if you don't require inference. if it wasn't required you could simply quote the part that explicitly covers how old outposts are not indestructible, but you can't.

to respond to the "you want the dev to do this for every little detail" no, this is a slippery slope fallacy, I want this specific instance clarified with an explicit quote, BECAUSE people have specifically gotten confused over this specific detail.

Starbases ENTIRELY replace the old system of Frontier Outposts. Something that is ENTIRELY replaced has no place left to exist and is gone. Anything and everything that is the old system of Frontier Outposts will be replaced. Frontier Outposts in their original form will not exist in parallel with Starbases. Frontier Outposts relative position regarding the new rules will be the same as Cultural Expansion Pressure's relative position regarding the new rules, in that neither of them will exist. All functionality of the Frontier Outpost will be found in Starbases, or it will not exist.

This is irrelevant to the discussion, because I am not arguing they are destructible. I am arguing people did not understand this clearly and needs to thus be better clarified. showing me evidence of how it's clear in the post is a common sense fallacy. just because it was clear to you, doesn't mean it was clear to others, which is clearly the case since people have brought up the fact that outposts are destructible in their arguments against this change. If you want to disprove this you must show evidence that the people who used outposts incorrectly in their arguments were not in-fact confused about whether they were destructible in the new rules. if you don't you're arguing for a point that i am not in conflict with. This isn't hard to understand people.

but guess what, this whole argument spanning several pages probably does the job adequately enough, so I don't feel it's necessary anymore.

FYI, here's some the posts that i feel are relevant to proving i'm not confused and merely wanted some extra clarifity if wiz was willing to give it.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-91-starbases.1052064/page-38#post-23445559

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-91-starbases.1052064/page-38#post-23446116
 
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One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.
look i'm not the one confused here. i've been dealing with people getting this confused for 40 pages or so. I made a simple request that this be clarified so so i can make a direct quote to that. you have to link 3 quotes to try to prove your point, that's inference. it requires reading of separate sections. I didn't even expect a response, but the real issue is why people had to explicitly say it was unnecessary when several people not knowing it, proves otherwise.

The original post is very direct and requires no inference.

then seriously why'd you have to quote 3 separate sections of the post if you don't require inference. if it wasn't required you could simply quote the part that explicitly covers how old outposts are not indestructible, but you can't.

to respond to the "you want the dev to do this for every little detail" no, this is a slippery slope fallacy, I want this specific instance clarified with an explicit quote, BECAUSE people have specifically gotten confused over this specific detail.

Starbases ENTIRELY replace the old system of Frontier Outposts. Something that is ENTIRELY replaced has no place left to exist and is gone. Anything and everything that is the old system of Frontier Outposts will be replaced. Frontier Outposts in their original form will not exist in parallel with Starbases. Frontier Outposts relative position regarding the new rules will be the same as Cultural Expansion Pressure's relative position regarding the new rules, in that neither of them will exist. All functionality of the Frontier Outpost will be found in Starbases, or it will not exist.

This is irrelevant to the discussion, because I am not arguing they are destructible. I am arguing people did not understand this clearly and needs to thus be better clarified. showing me evidence of how it's clear in the post is a common sense fallacy. just because it was clear to you, doesn't mean it was clear to others, which is clearly the case since people have brought up the fact that outposts are destructible in their arguments against this change. If you want to disprove this you must show evidence that the people who used outposts incorrectly in their arguments were not in-fact confused about whether they were destructible in the new rules. if you don't you're arguing for a point that i am not in conflict with. This isn't hard to understand people.

but guess what, this whole argument spanning several pages probably does the job adequately enough, so I don't feel it's necessary anymore.

FYI, here's some the posts that i feel are relevant to proving i'm not confused and merely wanted some extra clarifity if wiz was willing to give it.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-91-starbases.1052064/page-38#post-23445559

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-91-starbases.1052064/page-38#post-23446116
 
but that post doesn't have anything to say about outposts.

:/

like, do you not get this. the information is spread out all over. It's been collected enough times in this thread though that pursuing this isn't worth it anymore.
 
Before you heavily invest resources in a system with atomic age, or space age primitives, you need a plan for those primitives, it's just irresponsible otherwise.
I admit, you have a solid point. I can (and I will) accept the logic game-mechanic-wise if PDX programs it in such a way that you will lose the system if the primitives enter space age, and if it happens I will simply get rid of all primitives (or in the case of xenophile/rogue servitor/driven assimilator gameplay, integrate them) that are in my borders.
I'm honestly now sure how they're going to handle contested systems now that system claims are established by a single spot in the center of the system that, for game balance reasons, will probably only allow a single starbase
That's something I'm interested in too. Maybe the starbase will be disabled while waiting for the owner to be decided? I can definitely agree to that. Or two starbases in the same system, that will start attacking each other if the owners are in war?:eek:
 
It sounds pretty interesting, but I stand by my love of the dynamic borders. I really enjoy playing border aggressive races sometimes. This completely removes that whole dynamic and the closest left will be influence spam races. Even that wont be very close unless they add some sort of diplomatic population weight in addition to border friction. Like "I know that system is your traditional homeworld of 10,000 years, but we've got 5 billion people living one system over and you've got like...2 guys there. Just makes sense for you to give us the system in the middle." Eh. Not really feeling it now that I type it. I don't know if there is any solution.