• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
2017_10_26_1.png


Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
2017_10_26_2.png


As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
2017_10_26_3.png


As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
2017_10_26_4.png


Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
2017_10_26_5.png


Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
2017_10_26_6.png

2017_10_26_10.png


Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
2017_10_26_1.png

2017_10_26_4.png


Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
2017_10_26_7.png


Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
2017_10_26_8.png


Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
2017_10_26_2.png


Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
2017_10_26_3.png


One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
Last edited:
Maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think that banning colonization and conquering primitives has little lore sense. Why can't I simply send some marines and/or colonists to that planet, but I have to build totally unnecessary station first? I guess such actions should be allowed, but with some debuffs (for example you can't have more than X pops and this system doesn't count while closing borders) before you build a base. And of course it costs influence then. What do you think, @Wiz ?
 
but that post doesn't have anything to say about outposts.

:/

like, do you not get this. the information is spread out all over. It's been collected enough times in this thread though that pursuing this isn't worth it anymore.
outpost are starbases, they are the first and lowest level (level "0") and therefore have the same mechanics as starbases.
 
Maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think that banning colonization and conquering primitives has little lore sense. Why can't I simply send some marines and/or colonists to that planet, but I have to build totally unnecessary station first? I guess such actions should be allowed, but with some debuffs (for example you can't have more than X pops and this system doesn't count while closing borders) before you build a base. And of course it costs influence then. What do you think, @Wiz ?
the station can be explained as many things, communications for example, that the colonist would want to have set up prior to leaving. it's also staking the claim to territory, so no one else snatches it before the colony ship gets there.
 
I'd like to point out that the restriction on not being able to build colonies or conquer primitives in other nations' territories is exactly the same as it is right now: you can't do it. In practice, you probably could, but the game would need mechanics for nations to respond to other nations violating their borders. As an example, there's nothing preventing the US from building a town south of the Rio Grande and proclaiming it is part of America, either, other than you know Mexico objecting to that. In the past, this was extremely common, and there's really no reason why this couldn't be done in a space game either. Of course, under the current system of territory has only one owner, instead of territory has overlapping claims, this wouldn't work, as we couldn't determine who the single owner is. If you had a system where multiple nations could all claim a territory, you can imagine that there could be a huge diplomatic penalty for building inside another nation's claimed territory, with the diplomatic options to resolve this by removing settlements, adjusting border claims, or a bit of both.
 
Maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think that banning colonization and conquering primitives has little lore sense. Why can't I simply send some marines and/or colonists to that planet, but I have to build totally unnecessary station first? I guess such actions should be allowed, but with some debuffs (for example you can't have more than X pops and this system doesn't count while closing borders) before you build a base. And of course it costs influence then. What do you think, @Wiz ?
You already can't conquer those primitives for free. You need to spend Influence like you would for a colony- except now colonies don't cost Influence, starbases do.
 
Maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think that banning colonization and conquering primitives has little lore sense. Why can't I simply send some marines and/or colonists to that planet, but I have to build totally unnecessary station first? I guess such actions should be allowed, but with some debuffs (for example you can't have more than X pops and this system doesn't count while closing borders) before you build a base. And of course it costs influence then. What do you think, @Wiz ?

My guess is that you do what you do in wartimes: you occupy the planet, but unless you build an outpost in the system to stake your claim on it (and get communications up and running with your homeworld so they can get paperwork done) you can't enforce your will on the natives.
 
outpost are starbases, they are the first and lowest level (level "0") and therefore have the same mechanics as starbases.
which isn't quoted there. if you're wondering, i asked for a specific single quote that didn't require inference to understand that outposts as they were no longer exist and are indestructible.

seriously people.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-91-starbases.1052064/page-38#post-23445559

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-91-starbases.1052064/page-38#post-23446116

edit: you know what, anyone has anything else to say on this PM me instead.

Thank you.
 
That, THAT is the kind of thing I've been looking for in this game, well, even if I'm sceptic about the need to build an outpost in every system, I mean wouldn't it make war goals useless ? You could just vaporize all of the outposts and poof, suddendly your rival has almost no territory left, leaving it all to grab easily.

It says you can 'disable' them but not destroy them. So while your ships can shoot them into tiny pieces, which probably makes them stop gathering resources, they get 'repaired' after the war and the owner doesn't lose the territory (unless that was part of the peace treaty). After all, they're not broadcasting a magical territory declaration field or anything.
 
How will the outpost model affect Fallen Empires and computer players around border pressure and encroachment? Are Fallen Empires still going to declare war for claiming systems several stars away, or will they more often get upset with direct proximity?
 
Hey there @Wiz ,
I really like all the planned changes, especially the outpost mechanic. I hope you will be able to sell them to others so one can make a living off of claiming and selling strategically important systems xD
I guess it will work great with Hyperdrives.
The Starbase in the picture looks really nice, can't wait to see how all the other styles look.

Well, I guess there's still a lot to be done, so here are some things I'd really like to see in the game:
SHIPYARDS:
-First of all, I hope there will be Shipyards independent from Starbases, for example, that you can build Shipyards around planets. I think that would actually make a lot of sense to have it separated, so you can have a heavily fortified system with a major orbital Shipyard. Of course, these would be A LOT more expensive than the modules, but also a lot more efficient.

MEGASTRUCTURES:
-(This will be important for the next thing I will mention) I would like to see that Megastructures become a lot more MEGA. In my opinion, they should be A LOT more expensive and take a lot longer to build but also be waaaaaaaay stronger. For example 50 years and every 5 years you'd have to pay 50k minerals ( or like a minimum of 20 years and the rest depends on how much minerals you can pump into the project). Of course, all of this can be reduced by technologies, ascension perks, edicts and strategic resources. ( Also I'd like to see strategic resources get more strategic so you'll have wars about systems with them in it)

-My suggestion: Make all of this customizable in the start settings of the game.

ALLIANCES:
-I would like to see more alliance related stuff. A segregation in Alliance Majors and Minors would be cool. For example, if an Alliance has 7 members but only 3 of them are Majors, those 3 are in charge of the Fleet and everyone can build ships for it. One member can ask for Fleet rights for a specified amount of time and if the others approve ( Either by the majority or unanimously - should be a setting in the alliance menu, like a vote) this member can use the Fleet until for example his allowance runs out or a war is over.

-Alliance Majors would have to pay a higher tax than minors but would also get more benefits. Alliance members should also be allowed to force their vassals to build ships for the alliance fleet.

-Alliance Systems would be cool, where each member, when the alliance is formed, can suggest a system to place the Alliance Headquarters in, which would give benefits to the entire Alliance as long as it is active, but hurts each member real bad if it is occupied. The alliance should be able to have 1 Star System for there Alliance for each Major Member.

-These Systems would not be controlled by anyone but grow in economic strength and therefore grant more benefits to the major members (and minor members) the better off their empires are, population and economy wise. This would make alliance members want to make sure everyone is strong, not just themselves.

-In these Systems, the Alliance should be able to build Megastructures together, share the cost evenly and reap its benefits evenly. If there are 3 Major Members everyone would get a third of the research a Science Nexus provides etc. And if Megastructures were more expensive an alliance would be a great way to get them done with reasonable effort.

-If you decide to leave the faction you will either have to give everything alliance related to the alliance or go to war about its ownership. The Alliance Fleet should split into the Alliance and the Leavers Part ( Depending on who built the ships) so they instantly start fighting. This is to prevent people not investing in the fleet but still being able to use it fully.

Well, it seems I went a bit overboard there :D
Anyways, I really like the changes that are planned and it's a step in the right direction, the game gets even better with every update.
I hope you keep up the good work and that I might have given you some Ideas.

Greetings, NiteBlayd

(P.S.: PLS SLAVE AND ROBOT TRADE PLS)
 
look i'm not the one confused here. i've been dealing with people getting this confused for 40 pages or so. I made a simple request that this be clarified so so i can make a direct quote to that. you have to link 3 quotes to try to prove your point, that's inference.

Incorrect on three points. First, linking three quotes just isn't inference, that's not even close to what inference means, and it doesn't even imply inference. Secondly, I didn't quote three sentences to prove one point, I made three quotes to prove two points. I didn't know what you were talking about for certain so I address Frontier Outposts and Starports. Thirdly, you are the one confused here.

I blame myself for your confusion. I made three quotes, but my post about Frontier Outposts got away from me somewhat and I felt adding information about Starports would just muddy the waters. In hindsight I should have just removed those two quotes entirely.

Starbases ENTIRELY replace the old system of Frontier Outposts. Something that is ENTIRELY replaced has no place left to exist and is gone. Anything and everything that is the old system of Frontier Outposts will be replaced. Frontier Outposts in their original form will not exist in parallel with Starbases. Frontier Outposts relative position regarding the new rules will be the same as Cultural Expansion Pressure's relative position regarding the new rules, in that neither of them will exist. All functionality of the Frontier Outpost will be found in Starbases, or it will not exist.

This is irrelevant to the discussion, because I am not arguing they are destructible.

Because clearly you did get confused. Somehow, probably because you read the quotes and not the paragraph, you seem to think the section you quoted is about destructibility and is irrelevant. You have reached this conclusion without the word destructible being in that paragraph or the concept of destructibility being addressed even in the abstract. So I'll try briefly to explain again.

There is currently a system in game called "Frontier Outposts." Frontier Outposts will be entirely replaced by Starbases.

So the answer to any question about "Frontier Outposts" in the next expansion will be, "This has been entirely replaced by Starbases."

I can't make it any more simple than that. And you're not doing yourself any favors when you misunderstand other people and then claim they are confused.
 
Every system having resources is going to clutter the galaxy map. It will also increase construction ship micro, and decrease the effectiveness of "build all stations in system", as the average number of stations per system will probably significantly decrease.

Constructing outposts in a particular order and waiting for them to finish in order to reduce the influence cost of further outposts in that direction, when trying to e.g. get to a habitable planet, sounds very tedious.
 
and therefore have the same mechanics as starbases.

This is a little bit of a stretch, since we don't as yet know all the Mechanics of Starbases.

@Whiz says we will find out more in a few weeks.
 
"but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner."

This confused me... If starbases can't be destroyed, and colonies require an outpost at least, how would you get a colony w/out a starbase?

Anyhow! One thing that I thought might be a cool twist on this new mechanic is if the colonization restriction were removed: You can still colonize regardless of outposts, just without an outpost those colonies wouldn't be in your borders.

It would remind me thematically of the Marquis in Star Trek or the wildcat colonists in Old Man's War. They'd be much more vulnerable, wouldn't have the same diplomatic status as an in-border colony, always at risk of getting claimed by someone plopping down an outpost, maybe would cost more influence, etc. But you could do it, and depending on the planet it might be worth it.

I don't know if this has any legs at all... But still, I could picture super-high value but remote systems that change hands constantly because invading the planet isn't an act of war. Or a galactic Tortuga, with five different planets all colonized by different empires. Or a cold war fought over a stretch of space no one is strong enough to claim, so instead they keep trying to get a foothold with colonies that struggle to survive.

You'd have your empire, strong and diplomatically secure. And then you'd have the periphery, the diaspora of colonies all out there for one reason or another, all trying to hang on without the protection of the Imperial Fleet or its Starbases. Idk if this would actually work, but it might put a cool spin on territory.

Either way, I love this starbase and borders rework. To me is it seems like it will make space feel big again. I'm excited, it seems like a lot of very good ideas imho.
 
Last edited:
Space is all about modules. Nothing is built from scratch that floats about in the void. And the best system is the one that is tried-and-true, used over and over again. Imitation is the best form of flattery, and this also applies to the modular space system.

Every station, be it mining, research or Main Transit Solar Orbital Stations are all constructed from modules built on a frame.

And what builds those modules? You got it: another module. It just isn't like the old days when you could hire a construction company to build your big new building from the architect's blue-prints.

So it was inevitable that when it came to even the most gruesome of space conflicts, the actual station frames would always survive. Sure, they'd get beat-up, bent, melted here or there, ... but it was nothing a new module couldn't fix.

Now, PLACING the stations, that's a WHOLE different kettle of fish. That is an exact math, and can't be fiddled with or jury-rigged after the fact. You'd think that bashing about big stations would affect that, but its surprisingly easy to keep the space station frames locked in their orbit - even during combat.

So now, we got out into the vast unknown, explore, and send out our module crews to build stations hither and wither. And once they're set, they last for centuries.

Too bad the same couldn't be said for my back, ...
 
Looks like a great update. Have some thoughts and suggestions on streamlining it though.

How about if your colony ship automatically construct an outpost if the system doesn't have one? The cost (influence, minerals, etc) needs to be balanced as needed, of course.
or
In the expansion menu, it shows you a list of systems reachable and also provides an option to build an outpost or build an outpost plus colonize a planet.
 
Just to be a complete pain in the arse, ...

How on earth would anyone ever exert a "border" outside of a solar system? You guys do understand that if you don't enforce a zone of control, it isn't a zone of control. The idea that a State could actually impose border controls without a massive Coast Guard with actual border crossing points (in the dead of space?) is ludicrous.

There's no such thing as "borders" beyond planets/planetoids. I'd love to see a State limit the travel of Neptunians to Mars from Jupiter. The whole concept is crazy.

You also understand that there are BILLIONS of stars in our little galaxy, not just "1000". If you found the best, juiciest, most awesome planet that didn't have a vicious mass-murdering self-conscious species strip-mining it in a mindless race to destroy its biosphere (aka "humanoids"), there's bound to be a few thousand (tens of thousands, hundreds ...) more that are much the same.

OH, and to that ... I'm afraid that 'wet' planets with active biospheres are most likely THE DEADLIEST planets for xeno-life forms. Micro organisms can't be negotiated with or eradicated. I suspect that once we actually do get out there and find these places, we'll only be examining them under glass.

THE POINT: We need to work toward visualizing the concept of these kinds of games beyond the Napoleonic ("Risk") concepts of ownership and conquest.

I love the update, and I can see how this will expand the immersion of the game. Looking forward to it.
 
but that post doesn't have anything to say about outposts.

:/

like, do you not get this. the information is spread out all over. It's been collected enough times in this thread though that pursuing this isn't worth it anymore.
I disagree with that. I'm fairly sure that they used the term "starbases" as a generalised term.