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Dev Diary #92 - Orders of Magnitude

Hello there!

We are already more than halfway through July, and we are already at the third of the five rogue Dev Diaries we will have. For this week’s Dev Diary, we are going to talk about Holy Orders, and the small changes being made to them.

I am going to start off with clarifying that Holy Orders are NOT going to be made playable. The changes are made so you can interact with them in new ways, not for you to play as them. The game is still focused on dynasties, and that has not changed with Holy Fury. Another thing I want to note, is that all these changes to Holy Order are part of the patch to Holy Fury, and not part of the expansion. In other words, you will not have to pay for them.

And as always, certain things might change before the release of Holy Fury.

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With their own government form rather than being Feudal, it is easier for us to treat them as their own entities, and not having the player awkwardly inherit one of them, with all their own quirks and special focuses. They should be easier to distinguish from a normal Feudal character as well, now that they have their own frames rather than the Feudal blue.

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Some of the other Christian Holy Orders have received decisions for forming and vassalizing them as well, in addition to the old decisions for the Knights Hospitaller and the Knights Templar. In the example above, you can see the decision to vassalize the Knights of Calatrava, and we have added similar ones for the Knights of Santiago, the Teutonic Order and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.

A new limitation we have added, is that you can only vassalize 1 Holy Order at a time with these decisions. This was to make sure we didn’t have one player changing religions and trying to capture all of them. This is Crusader Kings 2, after all, not Pokémon.

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If you have vassalized a Holy Order and they don’t find you fit to rule anymore, they will leave your service. They will return any land they hold that you are the De Jure Lord of, so with that in mind you usually shouldn’t lose large swathes of land if a Holy Order leaves your service. Though I would recommend staying on friendly terms with them.

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For the Knights Hospitaller, they can now ask a ruler conquering an island in the mediterranean to donate it to the order. We have added a similar event for the Teutonics in the north, replacing the old event where they asked for a single county.

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... So that is all for today!

Hopefully the Holy Orders will be a tad more interesting with some of these changes. Next week we will take a look at… Let me take a look at my notes here… “Shepherds, zealous kids and Venetians burning down Byzantium”? Surely that’ll be exciting news!
 
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Catholic Holy Orders are simply too powerful relative to other religions. Most egalitarian way is to cut their manpower to 1/5 their current strength, so that their 5 holy orders are the same as the sole holy order of other religions. That way Catholics still have the advantage in versatility (more countries able to access holy orders) but not the staggering manpower advantage.

That said, having them leave if I switch religions strikes at the heart of my pokemon ambitions......now I can only content myself with trying to find ways to vassalize mercs.
 
What happens when you fulfill the objective of your monastic order, such as completing the reconquista? Will they leave you? Also i wonder how this will effect non-christian holy orders, like the jomsvikings :eek:
 
Is king-level Teutonic Order just for late start dates or can it appear in a typical game.
 
my_nemesis12 said:
Paradox, I'm deeply frustrated by how nonchalantly you announce such a poorly thought out and, frankly, gamebreaking feature.

Throughout the existence of CK2, the rules of feudalism have been fairly constant. You can't just take your lands and fuck off, telling your liege to suck it. At least not without beating him in a war. You used to be able to do this with an exploit, but that was removed in 2012, for good reason. Now you've decided to add this gamebreaking feature back in, on purpose?

Vassals don't get to just leave. That's the foundation of feudalism.

Allow me to illustrate how absurd this decision is. You're the Holy Roman Emperor. You've played a bloodline of good, loyal Christians for hundreds of years and conquered half of the world. All this time, your loyal Teutonic Order has been by your side. You've granted them plenty of lands over the years, which are obviously outside HRE de-jure borders. Without noticing, your son died a week before your death, leaving the empire to your grandson. Oh shit, your grandson was raised by the court jew and is jewish. The teutonic order hates you now. They say "bye bye" and take half of eastern europe with them. You have no recourse and no CB. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

You get the picture. This is a horribly thought out feature and should be straight up removed. You do not get to leave your liege without a fight in feudalism. Period.



It seems this feature was put in purely to restrict people from playing the game how they want to play it. Paradox, this isn't a multiplayer game. It never will be. Multiplayer is fun, but it will never be balanced, and everyone who plays it knows that and is okay with it. Please stop trying to balance this for multiplayer the way you did EU4.
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Firstly, the scenario you describe is one that would likely lead to your vassals overtly trying to overthrow your dynasty, or result in rival claimants coming forward to usurp the throne. In those circumstances you honestly ought to be glad that all the Holy Order did was leave your service, rather than actually trying to kill you.

So it's clear that you're very willing to pick and choose which bits of history you want to apply, and that ultimately you're just being quite hypocritical.

Secondly, if you're concerned about them taking territory that you've ruled over for 'hundreds of years', then you should have actually read the dev diary properly, instead of rushing to the comments to complain. They explicitly state that if a Holy Order stops being your vassal they will return all of your de jure territory. So your big complaint isn't even valid, given the nature of de jure drift, as all that territory would become part of the de jure HRE over time anyway.
 
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Lots of nice changes, but I'm not sure how I feel about the Holy Order cap. It would seem a bit strange that the Kingdom of Jerusalem was unable to have both Hospitallers and Templars as vassals, for instance.

If the concern is players trying to "catch 'em all", then it seems that a more straightforward thing to do would be to prevent Holy Orders from being vassalized by a king of a different faith, or by someone whose Emperor or suzerain is of a different faith.

For example, a Muslim Holy Order wouldn't serve a Christian monarch by default, and vice versa, and neither would they serve a Muslim Sultan who had a Christian Emperor or was the tributary of a Christian ruler.
 
Snow Crystal said:
I am going to start off with clarifying that Holy Orders are NOT going to be made playable. The changes are made so you can interact with them in new ways, not for you to play as them. The game is still focused on dynasties, and that has not changed with Holy Fury.
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Why not actually? Playing a character with a non-inheritable title can be a form of hardcore mode, to see how far a player can come with just one life.
 
Are the "donate to holy order" decisions still going to be gone after the Teutonic Order becomes active?

Is something being done about the decision to take a loan from the Templars never being available?
 
"my men and I"
 
Snow Crystal said:
Next week we will take a look at… Let me take a look at my notes here… “Shepherds, zealous kids
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Might those kids have a terrible burning hatred that can only be quenched by the blood of the unclean?

If so, they'd fit right in CK2.
 
Not cool paradox. Not cool at all. Vassalizing holy orders is a big part of the game and players should have the option to vassalize all holy orders if they want to. Please, PLEASE rethink this very bad decision. Make an achievement out of it if you want: "Gotta Catch Em All: Vassalize all Holy Orders". But please give us back the ability to have as many of the holy orders as vassals as we want. We already can't use them if they're the wrong religion. Why make them go independent? That just forces us to go through the hassle of vassalizing them again when we switch back. This is a horrible change and i hope it gets reversed soon. Just leave that part the way it was, it was perfect.
 
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transylvanier said:
Not cool paradox. Not cool at all. Vassalizing holy orders is a big part of the game and players should have the option to vassalize all holy orders if they want to. Please, PLEASE rethink this very bad decision. Make an achievement out of it if you want: "Gotta Catch Em All: Vassalize all Holy Orders". But please give us back the ability to have as many of the holy orders as vassals as we want. We already can't use them if they're the wrong religion. Why make them go independent? That just forces us to go through the hassle of vassalizing them again when we switch back. This is a horrible change and i hope it gets reversed soon. Just leave that part the way it was, it was perfect.
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If possible, have in the game rules a box where you could set it to be like the way it used to be, or this new function for the Holy Orders. In this way, both parties could be satisfied.
 
Do Holy Orders still use Open Elective as succession law? If so: Could you please tell us the exact formula, which chooses the heir? I find it often confusing to understand, why some characters are on top but not my son, which I forced to join the order. Age, prestige, dynasty prestige and close relatives seem to play a role here but it is unfortunately unclear, how they exactly effect the succession. It would be also cool to reflect this ingame, similar to Papal suitability score or Respect in Republics. Keep up the good work!
 
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