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Dev Diary #92 - Orders of Magnitude

Hello there!

We are already more than halfway through July, and we are already at the third of the five rogue Dev Diaries we will have. For this week’s Dev Diary, we are going to talk about Holy Orders, and the small changes being made to them.

I am going to start off with clarifying that Holy Orders are NOT going to be made playable. The changes are made so you can interact with them in new ways, not for you to play as them. The game is still focused on dynasties, and that has not changed with Holy Fury. Another thing I want to note, is that all these changes to Holy Order are part of the patch to Holy Fury, and not part of the expansion. In other words, you will not have to pay for them.

And as always, certain things might change before the release of Holy Fury.

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With their own government form rather than being Feudal, it is easier for us to treat them as their own entities, and not having the player awkwardly inherit one of them, with all their own quirks and special focuses. They should be easier to distinguish from a normal Feudal character as well, now that they have their own frames rather than the Feudal blue.

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Some of the other Christian Holy Orders have received decisions for forming and vassalizing them as well, in addition to the old decisions for the Knights Hospitaller and the Knights Templar. In the example above, you can see the decision to vassalize the Knights of Calatrava, and we have added similar ones for the Knights of Santiago, the Teutonic Order and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.

A new limitation we have added, is that you can only vassalize 1 Holy Order at a time with these decisions. This was to make sure we didn’t have one player changing religions and trying to capture all of them. This is Crusader Kings 2, after all, not Pokémon.

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If you have vassalized a Holy Order and they don’t find you fit to rule anymore, they will leave your service. They will return any land they hold that you are the De Jure Lord of, so with that in mind you usually shouldn’t lose large swathes of land if a Holy Order leaves your service. Though I would recommend staying on friendly terms with them.

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For the Knights Hospitaller, they can now ask a ruler conquering an island in the mediterranean to donate it to the order. We have added a similar event for the Teutonics in the north, replacing the old event where they asked for a single county.

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... So that is all for today!

Hopefully the Holy Orders will be a tad more interesting with some of these changes. Next week we will take a look at… Let me take a look at my notes here… “Shepherds, zealous kids and Venetians burning down Byzantium”? Surely that’ll be exciting news!
 
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transylvanier said:
Not cool paradox. Not cool at all. Vassalizing holy orders is a big part of the game and players should have the option to vassalize all holy orders if they want to. Please, PLEASE rethink this very bad decision. Make an achievement out of it if you want: "Gotta Catch Em All: Vassalize all Holy Orders". But please give us back the ability to have as many of the holy orders as vassals as we want. We already can't use them if they're the wrong religion. Why make them go independent? That just forces us to go through the hassle of vassalizing them again when we switch back. This is a horrible change and i hope it gets reversed soon. Just leave that part the way it was, it was perfect.
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I think they're trying to fix the issue of the Holy Orders being totally unusable and pointless when they're vassalised, for example you're playing as Italy and you are under constant threat from Muslims and you heavily rely on the Orders, you give them numerous donations and holdings etc.

But then a Crusade is Launched for Jerusalem and France wins, and they then vassalise both the Templars & Hospitallars, now you cannot use both of those orders for the rest of the game, even when the Muslims threaten to take Italy & Rome, it makes no sense.
 
TheDungen said:
Without boundary conditions a sandbox is just MS paint.
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I agree in principle that you need to put the box in sandbox, but I don't really see much of a reason to make theocracies (and non-merchant republics) being unplayable be something unmoddable.
 
scorch2 said:
I think they're trying to fix the issue of the Holy Orders being totally unusable and pointless when they're vassalised, for example you're playing as Italy and you are under constant threat from Muslims and you heavily rely on the Orders, you give them numerous donations and holdings etc.

But then a Crusade is Launched for Jerusalem and France wins, and they then vassalise both the Templars & Hospitallars, now you cannot use both of those orders for the rest of the game, even when the Muslims threaten to take Italy & Rome, it makes no sense.
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Instead of letting them leave, let other carholics ask their liege with some options: a) use favor to make them accessible b) bribe their liege c) start war to freue them d) Just ask nicley, and If they agree they geht piety or loose piety If they refuse
So many posibilities to solve it better anderen with more interesting choices.
 
MDHP1997 said:
I think the devs know that if they make Holy Orders playable, there'd be basically no excuse to continue to keep theocracies as the remaining unplayable government. And if they made theocracies playable (which I'd like them to), they'd be unable to prevent me from playing as the Pope and engineering a Romance-culture invasion of Sweden :D
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Republics are still unplayable even though merchant republics aren't.
 
BrokenSky said:
Republics are still unplayable even though merchant republics aren't.
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Good point. Theocracies and Holy Orders are unplayable because they break with the core idea of the game: that you play as a dynasty. Republics, as opposed to merchant republics, aren't playable, because they haven't figure out an engaging way of playing a landlocked republic that fits with the dynastic core of CK2.

I hope they add republics at some point, because it'd most likely mean they'd have fleshed out internal politics more, thus giving families not ruling the realm something to do. Really hoping that if they take this route they also flesh out the internal politics of the Byzantine empire.

Edit: Clarity
 
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Really looking forward to this. Should be very interesting to see what effects this has on gameplay.
 
Snow Crystal said:
They will return any land they hold that you are the De Jure Lord of
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This is really implausible. Why would the Holy Order give up rich castles precisely when they despise your authority? If you really want to avoid the "border gore" for some reason, you should just change the Holdings CB to target a de jure kingdom, or simply all realm counties.
 
We can only vassalization one?
I think if it's ck2, we don't need such a rule.
Others' holy orders is not such useful, They are too late and too weak.
When in the early age of the game, the holy order is creepy horror for the player who play non-catholic religion.
After the 100% threat, it's no sense, every npc ruler will join the fight.
And npc ruler seldom vassalization the holy order, it seems the game rule to limit the player.

Do you guys remember how the templar destroyed?
I think we should has another decision to totally destroy the holy orders.
Such as burn all of them on the stack at once, sounds such good.

And as the final dlc I think there should do more thing about MNM society.
If the pagan could have a new & plentiful reformed system, I think the secret religion should have something new event & system to play.
 
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