Dev Diary: Decorations Patch

[ToudCS]

So...I have to say, honestly, I don't understand the positive response to this.

Two months ago we were told repeatedly that there'd be enough time to do any fixes needed before the team went on break. Well, the homeless bug happened, and then the team went on break without fixing it. One month ago the team came back to office, and in that time there's been zero official word on the bug besides "We're looking into it".

A full month passes with no hotfixes, and then this post- where it's implied you had already fixed the bug, but decided to roll it into a patch with other fixes, and with the decorator stuff.

Which means you did actually have insight on the homeless bug but were keeping it under wraps because you knew it wouldn't be out until this patch was finished. Why could you not simply tell us "We have a fix for this, but it won't roll out until the next patch"?

And on top of that...a month in office, two months since the last patch, and all we get out of it is a hotfix we were promised would be viable to pump out and release two months ago...and...a feature almost every single player was already using, either via dev tools or mods. And the feature isn't even as good as it is with mods (or the built in, pre-existing dev tools) because the actual options for what you can use are limited, and there's no search bar. So the mods, and dev tools, are still the best way to use this content.

If you implement mods or debug content as actual content- you have to do it better than the mods did, otherwise it's just development time you could have spent on something else that isn't finished with the game, like citizen animations, or parks, or tourism, or snow cover. Why spend dev time repackaging a feature players already use, and repackage it in a way that isn't even as good as the ways we already use it?

In essence, in two months time since the last patch, you've released a hotfix- late- and content we already had, repackaged with fewer features than were already available. And then in the comments, it's the same song and dance of



The CCPs that are due in Q3, i.e. by the end of this month? "

We don't know."

The asset editor, which was supposed to be "coming soon" after launch? "We don't know."

The second detailers patch? "We don't know."

I don't think that's something to celebrate. Personally I think it's a distressing sign that this game's development is still going way too slowly. I'm waiting for the inevitable announcement that the CCPs are delayed- again. Please tell me they are not delayed again. Those of us who bought the Ultimate Edition are really struggling here with how little of the content we're owed we've actually gotten.

I hope the rest of the bug fixes are at least substantial enough to justify lumping the homeless fix into another patch instead of simply releasing it.

Very well said. I cut all the information about decorator stuff from my memory because it's not something that I find useful in any way. Find It and Plop the Growables are much better. I hope the creators see this message. I feel like they forgot about how to implement mod features - they need to do it better to make sense. After all, they do it on their own code so it should be easier for them.

 

[eloquentire]

this is nice but it doesn't address how the game treats homeless cims. increasing well being is not enough. the way the game has a homeless-to-criminal pipeline is...not good especially since the cops are basically the only mechanic to address this.

You've introduced a cool challenge with homeless cims but no interesting or compelling ways to actually interact or solve that challenge. i think that is the necessary next step.

 

[ProfessorHornbuckle]

Yeah, the response from Jan about "It's impossible to know" if the patch works with the existing mods that do it better...what on earth do you mean it's impossible to know? You could collaborate with the modders who did it. You could give them early access to the patch to fix their mods in the meantime. You could implement these things the same way they did, with their permission, or even help.

But instead they release an existing feature, that we're already using, and do it worse. What is the point? Sure it's great for Console players, but the game isn't even finished on PC, and they have- like everything else- no idea when to expect console to release. Sure it's great for geforce now players, but is it really a good idea to spend development time on things like this just for geforce now players when there's a long, LONG list of features that are meant to be functional in the base game that still don't work?

This patch is so confusing to me.

 

[raf8655]

Quindi... devo dire, onestamente, che non capisco la risposta positiva a questo.

Due mesi fa ci è stato ripetuto più volte che ci sarebbe stato abbastanza tempo per fare le correzioni necessarie prima che il team andasse in pausa. Bene, è successo il bug dei senzatetto, e poi il team è andato in pausa senza risolverlo. Un mese fa il team è tornato in ufficio, e in quel periodo non c'è stata alcuna parola ufficiale sul bug, a parte "Stiamo esaminando la cosa".

Passa un mese intero senza hotfix, e poi questo post, in cui si insinua che avevi già risolto il bug, ma hai deciso di inserirlo in una patch con altre correzioni e con il decorator.

Il che significa che in realtà avevi intuito sul bug dei senzatetto, ma lo stavi tenendo nascosto perché sapevi che non sarebbe uscito prima del completamento di questa patch. Perché non potevi semplicemente dirci "Abbiamo una soluzione per questo, ma non verrà distribuita prima della prossima patch"?

E per giunta...un mese in carica, due mesi dall'ultima patch, e tutto quello che ne ricaviamo è un hotfix che ci avevano promesso sarebbe stato fattibile da sfornare e rilasciare due mesi fa...e...una funzionalità che quasi ogni singolo giocatore stava già utilizzando, tramite strumenti di sviluppo o mod. E la funzionalità non è nemmeno buona come lo è con le mod (o gli strumenti di sviluppo preesistenti e integrati) perché le opzioni effettive per ciò che puoi usare sono limitate e non c'è una barra di ricerca. Quindi le mod e gli strumenti di sviluppo sono ancora il modo migliore per usare questo contenuto.

Se implementi mod o esegui il debug di contenuti come contenuti effettivi, devi farlo meglio di quanto hanno fatto le mod, altrimenti è solo tempo di sviluppo che avresti potuto dedicare a qualcos'altro che non è finito con il gioco, come animazioni dei cittadini, o parchi, o turismo, o manto nevoso. Perché perdere tempo di sviluppo a riconfezionare una funzionalità che i giocatori usano già, e riconfezionarla in un modo che non è nemmeno buono come i modi in cui la usiamo già?

In sostanza, in due mesi dall'ultima patch, avete rilasciato un hotfix, in ritardo, e contenuti che avevamo già, riconfezionati con meno funzionalità di quelle già disponibili. E poi nei commenti, è la solita canzone e danza di



Le CCP in scadenza nel terzo trimestre, cioè entro la fine di questo mese?

Non lo sappiamo."

L'editor di risorse, che avrebbe dovuto essere "disponibile a breve" dopo il lancio? "Non lo sappiamo."

La seconda toppa dei dettaglianti? "Non lo sappiamo."

Non credo che sia qualcosa da festeggiare. Personalmente penso che sia un segnale angosciante che lo sviluppo di questo gioco stia ancora procedendo troppo lentamente. Sto aspettando l'inevitabile annuncio che i CCP sono in ritardo, di nuovo. Per favore, ditemi che non sono in ritardo di nuovo. Quelli di noi che hanno acquistato la Ultimate Edition stanno davvero lottando qui con quanto poco del contenuto che ci è dovuto abbiamo effettivamente ottenuto.

Spero che il resto delle correzioni di bug siano almeno abbastanza sostanziali da giustificare l'inserimento della correzione del problema dei senzatetto in un'altra patch, anziché semplicemente pubblicarla.

Exactly, perfect review.

I find this sort of ordered register of decorations rather useless, especially because it is already present in the game thanks to the MODs, in fact it is almost a mockery towards us and the creators of the MODs given that it is passed off as a great novelty and addition.

It's right to remember all those things that we still don't have after 1 year, but above all people probably forget that according to the new schedule we should have 2 CCPs within 27 days...maybe

 

[raf8655]

Assets Importing è una funzionalità minima di base che era stata pianificata per essere nel gioco base, prima di poter passare a lavorare su nuove funzionalità e DLC. Tuttavia, problemi tecnici li hanno costretti a spostare la funzionalità Assets Importing alla patch Q3 di quest'anno, quindi eccoci qui: la dirittura d'arrivo della "fase di rifinitura" del gioco base CS2, prima di iniziare a lavorare sul grande DLC a pagamento 1 (il primo grande DLC di Cities Skylines 2).

It was never written that Asset Importing will happen with the release of the Q3 patch... maybe this thing had been written, it would be a miracle!!!...because if that were the case within 27 days at most we would have this much desired thing... but we're not even sure to receive the 2 expected CCPs...

 

[wlhunt2]

Single family housing is expensive. The homeless families in most scenarios cannot afford the rent so why would they go back to living someplace they cannot afford again? So homeless families will of course choose the high density buildings (this likely includes affordable housing within the category) first. An apartment is smaller and easier to maintain. It would be a more ideal starting point for someone that is homeless to get back on their feet again.

I would say this was a brilliant and realistic design decision.

Seems like there should be different treatment for cims that are homeless but not poor. For example, those who the player bulldozed their house or those whose building burned down but they still have a well-paying job and can afford another expensive place.

 

[PicoPicante]

So...I have to say, honestly, I don't understand the positive response to this.

Two months ago we were told repeatedly that there'd be enough time to do any fixes needed before the team went on break. Well, the homeless bug happened, and then the team went on break without fixing it. One month ago the team came back to office, and in that time there's been zero official word on the bug besides "We're looking into it".

A full month passes with no hotfixes, and then this post- where it's implied you had already fixed the bug, but decided to roll it into a patch with other fixes, and with the decorator stuff.

Which means you did actually have insight on the homeless bug but were keeping it under wraps because you knew it wouldn't be out until this patch was finished. Why could you not simply tell us "We have a fix for this, but it won't roll out until the next patch"?

And on top of that...a month in office, two months since the last patch, and all we get out of it is a hotfix we were promised would be viable to pump out and release two months ago...and...a feature almost every single player was already using, either via dev tools or mods. And the feature isn't even as good as it is with mods (or the built in, pre-existing dev tools) because the actual options for what you can use are limited, and there's no search bar. So the mods, and dev tools, are still the best way to use this content.

If you implement mods or debug content as actual content- you have to do it better than the mods did, otherwise it's just development time you could have spent on something else that isn't finished with the game, like citizen animations, or parks, or tourism, or snow cover. Why spend dev time repackaging a feature players already use, and repackage it in a way that isn't even as good as the ways we already use it?

In essence, in two months time since the last patch, you've released a hotfix- late- and content we already had, repackaged with fewer features than were already available. And then in the comments, it's the same song and dance of



The CCPs that are due in Q3, i.e. by the end of this month? "

We don't know."

The asset editor, which was supposed to be "coming soon" after launch? "We don't know."

The second detailers patch? "We don't know."

I don't think that's something to celebrate. Personally I think it's a distressing sign that this game's development is still going way too slowly. I'm waiting for the inevitable announcement that the CCPs are delayed- again. Please tell me they are not delayed again. Those of us who bought the Ultimate Edition are really struggling here with how little of the content we're owed we've actually gotten.

I hope the rest of the bug fixes are at least substantial enough to justify lumping the homeless fix into another patch instead of simply releasing it.

I get your frustration around this, but also I'm looking forward to seeing the patch notes once they're available. My guess is that it'll have a fair amount more than just "-added props menu // -fixed homelessness" but until they're out, who can say for sure?

It makes sense to me that they would roll multiple fixes together into a single release. I assume Paradox/CO have requirements about QA testing and vetting for every release, and since they outsource at least *some* QA work to a 3rd party, it could be that every patch QA round has a base cost + hours worked. If that's the case, QA'ing 3 patches separately could cost a lot more. Businesses gotta business. A modder creating a mod that triages the problem takes a lot of the time pressure off of them and lets them focus on finding a solution that's a bit more finessed than "delete all homeless people who've been homeless for greater than 45 minutes."

For my own curiosity I would love love love to see a dev diary though about what led to the homelessness bug in the first place, and what the process was to troubleshoot it and ultimately come up with the solution they did. I think CO have done a great job selling how complex the game aspires to be, but a poor job highlighting just how mind-boggling complex that means it is on the backend. If the homeless bug took this long to fix, I assume it's because everything's tied up to everything else and it's awful hard to change one thing without having to retool 10 others.

 

[tweety80]

So...I have to say, honestly, I don't understand the positive response to this.

Players are different.
At least for my needs, this patch is nice and it is what I wished.
It looks like CO devs lack the skills to improve the CPU performance by maybe 200%, so adding more props is a different path. Of course, it will not make everyone happy.

The last patch of this 30-person-strong company was two months ago... delivering a patch that unlocks a small part of the dev mode and fixes some bugs is probably very little, I agree. But that is not unexpected if we look back.

Maybe 20 of these 30 people already work on CS3, or the company itself is inefficient; who knows?

 

[PicoPicante]

Yeah, the response from Jan about "It's impossible to know" if the patch works with the existing mods that do it better...what on earth do you mean it's impossible to know? You could collaborate with the modders who did it. You could give them early access to the patch to fix their mods in the meantime. You could implement these things the same way they did, with their permission, or even help.

But instead they release an existing feature, that we're already using, and do it worse. What is the point? Sure it's great for Console players, but the game isn't even finished on PC, and they have- like everything else- no idea when to expect console to release. Sure it's great for geforce now players, but is it really a good idea to spend development time on things like this just for geforce now players when there's a long, LONG list of features that are meant to be functional in the base game that still don't work?

This patch is so confusing to me.

I don't have ploppable assets because I don't want to install more mods, and developer mode is annoying and opaque. Now that I'll be able to get to them from landscaping, I'll likely use them, and I play through Steam with a pretty run-of-the-mill set up. Just offering up another perspective for you.

 

[ProfessorHornbuckle]

They keep pushing "We're a small team of 30-ish people" to garner sympathy, but please understand a lot of this game's development is outsourced and they are not literally a team of just 30 people. The core team is 30 people. From the estimates I've seen, the actual dev team total surpasses 150.

These issues are...more understandable for a team of 30. But they are not actually a team of 30.

Even if they were, the little resources they have should be laser-focused on core issues with the game- not on re-implementing things the game already has via other means, and implementing them worse.

 

[Civ5rako]

I don't have ploppable assets because I don't want to install more mods, and developer mode is annoying and opaque. Now that I'll be able to get to them from landscaping, I'll likely use them, and I play through Steam with a pretty run-of-the-mill set up. Just offering up another perspective for you.

That is all fine and dandy but this improvement should have come in January at the latest.

Obviously props have been part of the game from the beginning. They just didn't want to allow players to use them until somebody found out how to use the developers menu.

Nobody can tell me that updating the UI with access to the props was such a difficult task that it took them 10 months to deliver it. That is something which may have taken some days, not more.

To me it very much looks like the following scenario:
They messed up the hotfix for the homeless bug. Finally they found a way to surpress the consequences of said bug to some degree, but now it was time for the September patch. So no hotfix, but on the other hand nothing else to offer in a "bigger patch". And so they bit the bullet and now are generously allowing players to access some props.
Which in total makes for an underwhelming "patch" but - as they hope - buys them some more time.

 

[Mjud]

It was worth waiting 2 months to get the ability to use assets without developer mode, which is what mods have been doing for half a year.

 

[ProfessorHornbuckle]

That is all fine and dandy but this improvement should have come in January at the latest.

Obviously props have been part of the game from the beginning. They just didn't want to allow players to use them until somebody found out how to use the developers menu.

Nobody can tell me that updating the UI with access to the props was such a difficult task that it took them 10 months to deliver it. That is something which may have taken some days, not more.

To me it very much looks like the following scenario:
They messed up the hotfix for the homeless bug. Finally they found a way to surpress the consequences of said bug to some degree, but now it was time for the September patch. So no hotfix, but on the other hand nothing else to offer in a "bigger patch". And so they bit the bullet and now are generously allowing players to access some props.
Which in total makes for an underwhelming "patch" but - as they hope - buys them some more time.

What I don't get is why they call it a hotfix.

A hotfix is, by definition, something you put out quick. It doesn't go through normal testing channels, certification, etc. It just gets put out there. It's quick. That's the point.

CO's definition of grab-and-go food at a cafeteria is a sit down meal with a waiter that takes 25 minutes to even take your drink order.

This "We'll wait until we have a proper patch" stuff has gotta stop. If they're going to introduce major bugs they have to be ready to also resolve them. Not wait and wait and wait and wait.

And like I said before- the fact that they rolled this into a bigger patch means they've known for AT LEAST a couple weeks that they were doing this, yet all the messaging was "We have nothing to say yet". Why did they have nothing to say? Why did they not simply say "Hey we fixed it (sort of) but we'll be putting it in the next main patch"?

 

[tom_mai78101]

It was never written that Asset Importing will happen with the release of the Q3 patch... maybe this thing had been written, it would be a miracle!!!...because if that were the case within 27 days at most we would have this much desired thing... but we're not even sure to receive the 2 expected CCPs...

Ok, fair. Asset Editor / Importing has no estimate time, but at the time it was written back in June, it was implied that in Q3, we will have a patch of some kind. What we can't confirm back then was whether Asset Editor / Importing will be ready by then. Or how large the Q3 patch will be.

@co_avanya Was the original Q3 patch planned to be larger than v1.1.8, but then things happened and v1.1.8 came as a result?

We’ve already started work on the next major patch which we hope to have ready for you in Q3, and we want to give you a little sneak peek at what you can expect.

Can't wait for this update! Will the asset editor be in the Q3 update?

We can't confirm it will be ready for that patch yet, but we're working on resolving the remaining issues as soon as possible, so you can start to create custom assets.

 

[BoraBora]

That's exactly what isn't clear. Why do they have to remain in the finishing phase given that they are already ready and have been moved to work on more important "priorities" (of which unfortunately the fruits are not seen)?

I suppose that these CCPs are mainly aesthetic additions that affect the visual variability of the game and do not change at a functional or code level...so I don't understand why their implementation needs to be continually moved given that it would not cost anything functional to the game, in fact I would see them as a panacea, a sort of candy to give to us while we wait for the "bigger priorities" to be resolved.

They may be some candy but they're not a gift to us. The UE buyers already paid them with good money a long time ago. The others will have to spend some more for a game most people justifiably consider still unfinished. They said it: these CCP are no work at all for them since modders do them. But they want the game to be in an acceptable state before asking for more money. The Beach properties DLC was a lesson they'll probably never forget.

Even if these CCPs are good DLCs, which the Beach properties wasn't, I'm sure most prople are waiting for far more important free improvements than a bunch of paying new assets. Especially when we're still waiting for the release of the free 2500+ assets from the region packs because the asset editor is still missing nearly a year after the release.

 

[ProfessorHornbuckle]

Even if these CCPs are good DLCs, which the Beach properties wasn't, I'm sure most prople are waiting for far more important free improvements than a bunch of paying new assets. Especially when we're still waiting for the release of the free 2500+ assets from the region packs because the asset editor is still missing nearly a year after the release.

In December, it was strange they wouldn't simply release the 2500+ assets as free DLC or via a patch.

In February, it was strange they wouldn't simply release the 2500+ assets as free DLC or via a patch.

When it turned out the Beach Properties DLC was a bust, it was strange they wouldn't simply release the 2500+ assets as free DLC or via a patch (And clarify if that's "2500+ as in 2500+" or "2500+ as in the same way Beach Properties number was inflated, and that inflated number was a significant chunk of the negativity surrounding them").

With each successive month without the asset editor, it becomes stranger and stranger and stranger that they've been sitting on these assets and refuse to simply let us have them. Why on earth are we waiting for them to be on PDX mods? Is anyone waiting for these assets really going to be disappointed that they're available via a direct download of an update versus having to opt into them on PDX mods? Are the creators who made them really going to be upset that the work they've done gets to the players instead of sitting on a hard drive because they arbitrarily MUST be released on PDX mods?

Yet another in a long, long line of absolutely baffling decisions around what are simple positive PR moves. Imagine if they announced today "Sorry about 2 straight months of nothing, but here's those 2500 assets we showed you a trailer for the week the game came out, 11 months ago!". I think people would be pretty happy about that!

Instead we get "We still have no timeframe or information on the asset editor.". Again. And again. And again.

(And don't forget that UE buyers are still owed an expansion, that was meant to release in spring, and now isn't coming until 2025, on top of the free CCPs as an apology for Beach Properties, as well as other CCPs from the UE, I think. So far we have exactly nothing from the UE, because Beach PRoperties was the only release since launch and it was molded into the game for free because of how BAD it was. I think the game may have even been up for sale by this point last year, so many of us paid over 100 bucks for extra content a full year ago and still have not seen a dime of it. Yeah, maybe they should be working on that instead of lackluster implementations of content already available by copying and pasting some text into the game's launch options.)

Also, in regards to "Well, I don't use mods, or the dev mode, so this is good for me"- that's cool, but the facts are, EVERY player has access to this feature already. That means this is not new content, for ANYONE. Every single player already had this. AND with a search bar- whether via dev mode or the mods. The official implementation doesn't even have a search bar. Plus by virtue of how they worked, the dev mode and mod version would automatically be updated with every bit of new content. Now the devs who can't get us a hotfix out for a single bug in under 2 months time are also going to have to keep up with organizing props every time they add new ones to the game. Is this really how you want them to spend their time?

Frankly, "We made it so there's a props menu" should be a single line on some patch notes, not an entire dev diary- it is that minimal of an addition to the game, considering the ways we alerady have access to it. Promoting it like some big fancy thing they did is ridiculous, because it's not. Everyone who was already using props will continue to use the mods to access them, because this implementation is worse. That's a simple statement of fact. This feature does not tangibly improve the game for ANYONE who was already using mods.

 

[cvatanen]

Will we have some flexibility when placing down these decorating assets? Or will we still have to use anarchy? Regardless I am happy that they are being added into the game. I know we have mods like find it that give the same feature, but I prefer to have these options baked into the main game. Now if we can get a prop line tool I'll be even happier.

 

[BoraBora]

Will we have some flexibility when placing down these decorating assets? Or will we still have to use anarchy? Regardless I am happy that they are being added into the game. I know we have mods like find it that give the same feature, but I prefer to have these options baked into the main game. Now if we can get a prop line tool I'll be even happier.

Not the same options. You still need find it and anarchy if you want to use all props (the menu include only a selection) and place them anywhere.

 

[safe-keeper]

Exactly, perfect review.

I find this sort of ordered register of decorations rather useless, especially because it is already present in the game thanks to the MODs, in fact it is almost a mockery towards us and the creators of the MODs given that it is passed off as a great novelty and addition.

It's right to remember all those things that we still don't have after 1 year, but above all people probably forget that according to the new schedule we should have 2 CCPs within 27 days...maybe

Remember for fairness' sake there's probably a lot of players who don't even play with mods, let alone dev mode or other 'advanced' features. Lots of CS players have never even played video games before. A lot probably don't read forums or watch YouTube videos. How many of them even know these mods exist?

That said, I'm definitely looking forward to bigger updates, too.

 

[raf8655]

They may be candy, but they are not a gift for us. EU buyers already paid for them with real money long ago. Others will have to spend more on a game that most people rightly still consider unfinished. They said it: these CCPs are not a job for them at all, since the modders make them. But they want the game to be in an acceptable state before asking for more money. The Beach Properties DLC was a lesson they will probably never forget.



Even if these CCPs are good DLC, which the Beach properties were not, I'm sure most people are waiting for far more important free improvements than a bunch of new paid assets. Especially when we are still waiting for the release of the 2500+ free assets from the region packs because the asset editor is still almost a year away after the release.

For example, I am an EU buyer and I expect to get what I paid for. They have put themselves in this awkward position, due to their disasters, and are probably procrastinating the launch of paid content so as not to make people spend more, also because their reputation is at its lowest level anyway and if before people bought the their products sight unseen will now think 100 times before doing so.

The fact remains that the most penalized are those like me, buyers from the EU.