Dev Diary: Tile Upkeep Explained

[Laucian Nailor]

this is such a helpful response! s/

You mean suggesting they consider a 'hotfix' as different from a 'new game' or 'patch' release. Very observant s/
And yet it was CO themselves who created the release time for the patch just so they were 'about' to undertake 'any hotfixes needed'

 

[MooneysRebellion]

I like the upkeep costs of new tiles. I think it was a necessary addition to the game. I just think it maybe needs tweaked a bit, say to around 70% of the current rate. Difficulty is needed for those that want to play this more as a "game" but for those that want to use it more for the simulation or city painter, I think the cost increase went just a bit too far.

I do think you're very close on the right balance tho!!!! Just tweak a bit or allow a slider to adjust the affect of the up keep cost to adjust the "difficulty".

 

[leafeon]

Not a fan of Economy 2.0 patch (needs major balancing as the game went from build how you want, to here's the meta to succeed), but I could at least forgive the terrible balance for a month. The game breaking bugs (especially the office one) not being worked on for at least a month is sadly the final nail for the game.

Despite all the issues since launch, I was always positive with the game. Post Economy 2.0, it pretty much killed the game as it's just not fun.

 

[TripleAgent]

We're working on a fix for this, but as we have entered the "summer lock" where Paradox does not release games or patches, I'm not sure when the fix might be available.

This is exactly the issue that was raised when the delay to the patch was announced, and why we were concerned that the patch was going to be released just before the summer holidays. Timing the patch release so that there were only a few days between release and the summer lock sounded like a bad idea, we said it was a bad idea, and it was a bad idea because now with all the fixes we have new game breaking bugs that no one noticed.

Seriously, all of this can be avoided by just having a public beta patch to actually test the fixes instead of releasing things into the wild to discover that they break the game.

Re: tile upkeep, it's a good idea but in practice the system just isn't workable, it seems to artificially encourage density which really shouldn't be a thing; the upkeep on a tile that has a bustling downtown shouldn't have the same upkeep as a tile full of agriculture with a highway going through it. Tile upkeep cost should be linked to the development/infrastructure/population on a tile, otherwise you're punishing people that want to play wide.

 

[Laucian Nailor]

I like the upkeep costs of new tiles. I think it was a necessary addition to the game. I just think it maybe needs tweaked a bit, say to around 70% of the current rate. Difficulty is needed for those that want to play this more as a "game" but for those that want to use it more for the simulation or city painter, I think the cost increase went just a bit too far.

I do think you're very close on the right balance tho!!!! Just tweak a bit or allow a slider to adjust the affect of the up keep cost to adjust the "difficulty".

I agree, I think the sentiment is correct, but perhaps a more realistic proposal, which I have fed back in the survey, is to continue to charge for tile purchase, but have ongoing costs directly related to the development that has been carried out in each tile.

It seems realistic that infrastructure effects the actual cost in the real world i.e. simply a powerline through a parcel of land costs less to maintain than a network of roads, buildings, services etc. I think at least it would enable variation in development approaches (centralised dense v widespread rural) without becoming too expensive per hour on upkeep costs.

 

[co_avanya]

Good afternoon @co_avanya -- any word on the employment and crime questions? Thank you so much!

We're currently investigating the reports/saves, but I'm afraid I don't have an update on the situation yet.

 

[Hubbubb17]

You mean suggesting they consider a 'hotfix' as different from a 'new game' or 'patch' release. Very observant s/
And yet it was CO themselves who created the release time for the patch just so they were 'about' to undertake 'any hotfixes needed'

I mean your hostile tone in the wake of a largely successful and engaging patch is toxic. Sorry, I should have been more precise.

 

[Hubbubb17]

We're currently investigating the reports/saves, but I'm afraid I don't have an update on the situation yet.

awesome! thank you!

 

[TripleAgent]

largely successful and engaging patch

They destroyed the functionality of the entire office zone, I'd hardly call that successful and engaging.

 

[leafeon]

largely successful and engaging patch is toxic.

Recent reviews sit at 48% (I finally went from a positive review to negative thanks to the update).

Steam forums "largely" dislike the changes and are po'ed when they find out all the bugs it added will not be fixed anytime soon.

 

[Hubbubb17]

Except that the mechanics involved in tile purchase are never reused elsewhere in the game, so learning them is pointless.

Whereas freeform districting is used all over the game. Why not set city boundaries using the districting mechanics, and take the opportunity to teach the novice player something they'll actually use?

Tile costs are already calculated dynamically based on contained resources, buildable land, etc. There's no reason for them to be compelled to be fixed-size squares when all I want is some land next to that river over yonder to build a highway on...

You misperceived an argument for the mechanic itself from an explanation about basic educational psychology. For advanced players like you, there is already a tool that allows you to circumvent the tile structure and build cities as you wish. The 529 tiles mod allows you to unlock all tiles and set upkeep costs as you like. This then enables the construction of freeform cities. And as your builds grow in size and complexity you can incrementally increase your upkeep costs with the toggle in the mod.

Newcomers to the game, however, need at least a small bit of structure while they master the game’s mechanics and the massive flow of information being provided to them about their builds.

 

[raysie]

Hi everyone. As we have seen a bunch of questions about how the Tile Upkeep added in patch 1.1.5f1, also known as Economy 2.0, works, we created this mini development diary. We hope this will answer some of your questions and give a better understanding of why we added the Tile Upkeep, and like always we welcome your constructive feedback and questions that might pop up after reading this.

So, let’s start with the basics. The Tile Upkeep is a new administrative land cost applied to land you own. It’s a fee that the city pays to the government for expanding its city limits inspired by the real-world property tax paid for unused land. The first 9 tiles already unlocked when you start a city do not have a cost. You are only charged a Tile Upkeep once you expand beyond those. The upkeep cost is a percentage value of the map tile purchasing cost and the percentage value increases on a curve from 5% to 25% as more map tiles are bought. This means early map tiles have a lower upkeep cost but as more map tiles are purchased, the upkeep per tile also increases affecting all purchased map tiles’ upkeep cost.

View attachment 1154418
X axis is the number of map tiles purchased, Y axis is the % of map tile purchase cost used to calculate the map tile upkeep costs.

When we were designing the Economy 2.0 update, we felt that more management features should be taken into consideration when you build your cities. Based on the feedback from you all following the release and from the closed beta group during the development of Economy 2.0, we came to the conclusion that the game was not challenging enough, especially in the later part of the game. And with the lack of a proper challenge being successful didn’t have the impact we wanted it to have. Growing the city’s limits is a natural way to progress through the game, so implementing an upkeep cost to map tiles was a good way to pace the gameplay, especially in the latter half where the city size grows rapidly and the map tile expenses reflect that. Our goal with the Tile Upkeep cost is to bring you more meaningful choices as you expand the city so you don’t just have to consider where to expand to, but also whether your city can sustain such an expansion. All in all we feel it strengthens the game pacing and improves the gameplay experience.

Of course, this new cost affects your ability to reach the edge of the playable area and create new Outside Connections, so let’s talk briefly about the cheapest way to create them early on. If you haven’t already noticed, map tile costs are affected by what is available in them - buildable land, resources, etc - making tiles with a lot of water the cheapest. This makes buying ocean tiles the absolute cheapest way to go if your city needs that new Outside Connection as soon as possible. You can then create a bridge or pipeline to the edge of the playable area. Or you can use the terrain tools to create a more realistic landbridge and build a road on top of it, but keep in mind that more land inside the tile affects its upkeep cost.

View attachment 1154419
The UI has been updated to show not only the cost of new tiles but also the Tile Upkeep they come with.

If you’re continuing an existing save, you may have unlocked a lot of map tiles that now come with a high Tile Upkeep. You may be able to expand your city to build additional tax income to offset this cost, but if you have built villages or rural towns on the map using either Unlock All or a mod to unlock map tiles, that may just be too much to cover. In that case, we recommend enabling Unlock Map Tiles under Map Options the next time you load your save. While this does disable achievements, it also disables the Tile Upkeep so you can continue your city. This option is also great if you enjoy building small towns or villages and don’t want to skip the Milestone progression.

We have already seen some great feedback on the Tile Upkeep, both from those who like it and those who don’t. We will continue to follow discussions about the current state of the game, not only in regards to the Tile Upkeep, so we can further refine the gameplay and balance to provide the best possible experience for you while maintaining our goals for the game. We also have a survey where you can share your thoughts, currently available through the launcher.

Please keep in mind that iterating game features and balance takes time, so even when we agree with your feedback, we may not be able to address it for a while. Nevertheless, we greatly appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts about the game and the changes we make. We look forward to reading it and continuing development in the fall. Thank you for being a part of this journey.

I cannot make money in this game, please email me when Economy update 3.0 is released.

 

[Hubbubb17]

cannot make money in this game

I’m doing it 100% vanilla in a rural build… haven’t even started developing high density office and residential yet…

Still concerned about the crime and employment questions as well...

It isn’t easy, but it isn’t impossible either.

 

[Bunkerfis]

I kind of like this new Tile Upkeep, however it could be tweaked a little i think Get ready for some text
I feel the game is handling the cost very static and wrong way at the moment... It would be very embarrasing if the upkeep cost was infact dynamic and all these things were already in place and i just dont know about it hehe :>

So first of all lets talk Why you pay upkeep, like, what would make sense to me Why tiles would cost money for my city!
Some assets in your lands need to be maintained, cared for and looked after, such as Trees, Wildlife, Water and Soil (just the examples i could think of right now).

• Trees needs to be cut down, replanted, with storms and age trees will fall and needs to be taken care of, this means someone will have to inspect the forests and someone will have to take care of these things and someone will have to handle the "waste".
• Wildlife you might need to keep track of parasites and deceases spreading within your lands and if you find something wrong you might have to do something about it? If its Water based wildlife it would mix into the next category below and if its Land based it could mix in with the category above?
• Waters such as Lakes, Ponds(?), Marshes etc might need to have the water tested for pH levels, parasites and pollution. Ground waters might need to be monitored to keep track if its healthy to consume or not etc (even if no one lives there atm)
• Soil, the only thing i can think of here would be pollution or contamination from some human source? Maybe we can call fields/plains Soil because it would be an area of land without Trees or Water on it. So lets just call it Fertile Lands?

Lets move on and talk Costs, ordered by amount.

1. Forests - The most expensive cost here in my mind would be the forests, obviously it means the most amount of work and it would take alot of time and people, the larger the forest the more time/people/money is needed?
2. Water - The second most expensive cost should be Lakes, Marshes, Rivers. Waters needs to be sampled and analyzed for parasites and pH levels. Some type of human needs to go out there and check these things. But alot less work than Trees and Forests.
3. Wildlife - The main cost here would be the people working with it and managing, tracking and checking on the wildlife. Checking for deceases mainly?
4. Soil - And the least expensive should be the Soil/Fertile Lands, because thats just plains... Worst case you do soil samples?
5. Water (Ocean) - Little to No upkeep cost here. You dont do anything with the Sea. The only thing i can think of (if i want to try to find a reason for upkeep cost here) would be some type of Coast Guard or Seach and Rescue service that has to patrol / maintain a larger area and thus costing more money?

With that said, i hope my guesstimated expenses and reasons makes sense (so far) to whoever is reading

Next point, and maybe the biggest change (i think?) would be a Dynamic cost of Tile Upkeep.
The cost increasing per tile right now feels like "the lazy way" to handle it. With a static cost of "you got more than X tiles, now it becomes more expensive!"

• Calculated cost based on distance to the nearest road. If you have a straight line of 5 tiles heading to the edge of the map and no road there, and its full of trees (lets pick something time consuming and expensive to maintain), it would be very hard to go there and upkeep that tile! If however there was a nice little road going there, it shouldnt matter if its further away!
• Calculated cost based on content of the tile. This is something we have right now i guess? But as far as i know you can never change the content of the tile and affect the cost of the tile upkeep? Lets assume we use My cost-list and Trees is the most expensive content. if you plant more trees, or you cut all the trees down, it should affect the cost of upkeep for that tile!
• Once you start to populate a tile with homes, industries and roads, the upkeep of the content of the tile should go away or be lowered even more, if you have a forestry industry taking care of all your forests, this is then no longer a cost for You(the state/government) to inspect and maintain the trees, this is now in that industrys intrest to maximize their profits by having healthy forests.

Some examples:

The worst scenario then would be a tile far away with no roads and all tiles full of trees and forests, maybe even a crossing river in the way, it would take alot of money and time to inspect and upkeep that tile​

​

While the best scenario would be (well apart from a 100% sea tile) a tile covered with Fertile Lands / Plains and with roads reaching out the corners of the tile​

Conclusion:

These changes should deter people from buying all tiles "because they can" but it also wouldnt hurt people who wants to buy tiles because they want to use / need them? (Even if their plan isnt to build a Mega-city in that specific tile)

Owning a tile with alot of forests and trees might be expensive, but you could lower the cost by making roads around the forest, for inspection purposes. And once you start to build a society there the costs would decrease further. But even if you choose not to build a community there you could build roads just to make the accessability better which would result in cheaper tile upkeep?
You would have to pay road upkeep and maintenance instead, but the price of tile upkeep would go down = Another added level of managment for the player to consider what is the best option!

I hope you survived this long. And i also hope what i wrote isnt crap

 

[Hubbubb17]

I kind of like this new Tile Upkeep, however it could be tweaked a little i think Get ready for some text
I feel the game is handling the cost very static and wrong way at the moment... It would be very embarrasing if the upkeep cost was infact dynamic and all these things were already in place and i just dont know about it hehe :>

So first of all lets talk Why you pay upkeep, like, what would make sense to me Why tiles would cost money for my city!
Some assets in your lands need to be maintained, cared for and looked after, such as Trees, Wildlife, Water and Soil (just the examples i could think of right now).

• Trees needs to be cut down, replanted, with storms and age trees will fall and needs to be taken care of, this means someone will have to inspect the forests and someone will have to take care of these things and someone will have to handle the "waste".
• Wildlife you might need to keep track of parasites and deceases spreading within your lands and if you find something wrong you might have to do something about it? If its Water based wildlife it would mix into the next category below and if its Land based it could mix in with the category above?
• Waters such as Lakes, Ponds(?), Marshes etc might need to have the water tested for pH levels, parasites and pollution. Ground waters might need to be monitored to keep track if its healthy to consume or not etc (even if no one lives there atm)
• Soil, the only thing i can think of here would be pollution or contamination from some human source? Maybe we can call fields/plains Soil because it would be an area of land without Trees or Water on it. So lets just call it Fertile Lands?

Lets move on and talk Costs, ordered by amount.

1. Forests - The most expensive cost here in my mind would be the forests, obviously it means the most amount of work and it would take alot of time and people, the larger the forest the more time/people/money is needed?
2. Water - The second most expensive cost should be Lakes, Marshes, Rivers. Waters needs to be sampled and analyzed for parasites and pH levels. Some type of human needs to go out there and check these things. But alot less work than Trees and Forests.
3. Wildlife - The main cost here would be the people working with it and managing, tracking and checking on the wildlife. Checking for deceases mainly?
4. Soil - And the least expensive should be the Soil/Fertile Lands, because thats just plains... Worst case you do soil samples?
5. Water (Ocean) - Little to No upkeep cost here. You dont do anything with the Sea. The only thing i can think of (if i want to try to find a reason for upkeep cost here) would be some type of Coast Guard or Seach and Rescue service that has to patrol / maintain a larger area and thus costing more money?

With that said, i hope my guesstimated expenses and reasons makes sense (so far) to whoever is reading

Next point, and maybe the biggest change (i think?) would be a Dynamic cost of Tile Upkeep.
The cost increasing per tile right now feels like "the lazy way" to handle it. With a static cost of "you got more than X tiles, now it becomes more expensive!"

• Calculated cost based on distance to the nearest road. If you have a straight line of 5 tiles heading to the edge of the map and no road there, and its full of trees (lets pick something time consuming and expensive to maintain), it would be very hard to go there and upkeep that tile! If however there was a nice little road going there, it shouldnt matter if its further away!
• Calculated cost based on content of the tile. This is something we have right now i guess? But as far as i know you can never change the content of the tile and affect the cost of the tile upkeep? Lets assume we use My cost-list and Trees is the most expensive content. if you plant more trees, or you cut all the trees down, it should affect the cost of upkeep for that tile!
• Once you start to populate a tile with homes, industries and roads, the upkeep of the content of the tile should go away or be lowered even more, if you have a forestry industry taking care of all your forests, this is then no longer a cost for You(the state/government) to inspect and maintain the trees, this is now in that industrys intrest to maximize their profits by having healthy forests.

Some examples:

The worst scenario then would be a tile far away with no roads and all tiles full of trees and forests, maybe even a crossing river in the way, it would take alot of money and time to inspect and upkeep that tile​

​

While the best scenario would be (well apart from a 100% sea tile) a tile covered with Fertile Lands / Plains and with roads reaching out the corners of the tile​

Conclusion:

These changes should deter people from buying all tiles "because they can" but it also wouldnt hurt people who wants to buy tiles because they want to use / need them? (Even if their plan isnt to build a Mega-city in that specific tile)

Owning a tile with alot of forests and trees might be expensive, but you could lower the cost by making roads around the forest, for inspection purposes. And once you start to build a society there the costs would decrease further. But even if you choose not to build a community there you could build roads just to make the accessability better which would result in cheaper tile upkeep?
You would have to pay road upkeep and maintenance instead, but the price of tile upkeep would go down = Another added level of managment for the player to consider what is the best option!

I hope you survived this long. And i also hope what i wrote isnt crap

I generally agree with what you’ve written here.

Seems to me it is reasonable to reduce the costs of upkeep for “Natural Resources” to a variable rate based on the resources in each tile (which I think is what they’ve already done).

I also agree with you about the increasing costs of tile upkeep into the late game. There ought to be other factors involved rather than an arbitrary increasing scale. Why should an ocean tile cost 4x more later into the game than earlier? Its value arguably shouldn’t have shifted much. Others have made suggestions related to infill and redevelopment costs, infrastructure maintenance, etc. which are more relevant to the game.

 

[echuu_shen_josh]

The tile upkeep looks steep, but I'm honestly enjoying the new economic challenge! I have to build a lot more carefully, wait to have enough monthly budget to add new services. One problem that might have an easy fix: when planning to add a new city service building, I look at the upkeep cost to make sure I can afford to add it. But when I put in a Radio Mast for monthly upkeep $5000, and was suddenly paying $25000 in maintenance ($5000 upkeep+$20000 wages) I realized why I still kept making budget errors! I actually really like that these buildings include a wage cost, since they have some city employees. But it would be so helpful if the tooltip for a new building included an estimate of its employee wage cost. That would really help with careful, budgeted city development!

 

[JuliusAlexander]

Forget further discussions, you're time would be better spent giving people a far greater degree of granularity in options, allowing us to turn on and turn off the things we do not want. A lot of people are in favour of this, many are like me in that it will be the final nail on the coffin of this game, therefore the easiest solution is allow those who don't want this feature to turn it off in the options rather than attempting to sabotage one of the most popular mods by making it too expensive to use. Alternatively add an easy mode that does not have these features turned on. Not everyone is that interested in the game, many have more of an interest in the art, but many more still like the idea of making money more casually while focusing on the art of city building. All of this is tinkering around the edges of the problem you created by releasing the game too early, what you need to focus on as your number one priority is getting the asset editor out and releasing the DLC we paid for.

 

[Licenturion]

Forget further discussions, you're time would be better spent giving people a far greater degree of granularity in options, allowing us to turn on and turn off the things we do not want. A lot of people are in favour of this, many are like me in that it will be the final nail on the coffin of this game, therefore the easiest solution is allow those who don't want this feature to turn it off in the options rather than attempting to sabotage one of the most popular mods by making it too expensive to use. Alternatively add an easy mode that does not have these features turned on. Not everyone is that interested in the game, many have more of an interest in the art, but many more still like the idea of making money more casually while focusing on the art of city building. All of this is tinkering around the edges of the problem you created by releasing the game too early, what you need to focus on as your number one priority is getting the asset editor out and releasing the DLC we paid for.

Every time CO changes something with the simulation, some major bugs turn up that literally break parts of the game for weeks. So if you expect a bunch of sliders and options and actual balance, the game will probably break beyond repair and it will probably make testing 20 times harder with all these permutations of options people can choose from.

You either actually 'play the game' or your don't and 'paint the game'. But there is good news. You can have your a la carte game experience right now.
- there are options in game to turn the tile mechanic off, turn locked buildings and have infinite money
- you can install several mods that change the game at your will
- you can enable developer mode and gain access to new settings and extra information numbers
- you can install a third party tool like WeMod or CheatEngine and change a bunch of things directly in your RAM

For a game that is not a year old that is a high level of customization than most games have. But CO will always have to walk the line between people who want some deeper action/reaction gameplay and solve problems versus people who want to focus on painting and have the illusion they are solving problems while the game does everything for them.

 

[GlynW01018]

Hi everyone. As we have seen a bunch of questions about how the Tile Upkeep added in patch 1.1.5f1, also known as Economy 2.0, works, we created this mini development diary. We hope this will answer some of your questions and give a better understanding of why we added the Tile Upkeep, and like always we welcome your constructive feedback and questions that might pop up after reading this.

So, let’s start with the basics. The Tile Upkeep is a new administrative land cost applied to land you own. It’s a fee that the city pays to the government for expanding its city limits inspired by the real-world property tax paid for unused land. The first 9 tiles already unlocked when you start a city do not have a cost. You are only charged a Tile Upkeep once you expand beyond those. The upkeep cost is a percentage value of the map tile purchasing cost and the percentage value increases on a curve from 5% to 25% as more map tiles are bought. This means early map tiles have a lower upkeep cost but as more map tiles are purchased, the upkeep per tile also increases affecting all purchased map tiles’ upkeep cost.

View attachment 1154418
X axis is the number of map tiles purchased, Y axis is the % of map tile purchase cost used to calculate the map tile upkeep costs.

When we were designing the Economy 2.0 update, we felt that more management features should be taken into consideration when you build your cities. Based on the feedback from you all following the release and from the closed beta group during the development of Economy 2.0, we came to the conclusion that the game was not challenging enough, especially in the later part of the game. And with the lack of a proper challenge being successful didn’t have the impact we wanted it to have. Growing the city’s limits is a natural way to progress through the game, so implementing an upkeep cost to map tiles was a good way to pace the gameplay, especially in the latter half where the city size grows rapidly and the map tile expenses reflect that. Our goal with the Tile Upkeep cost is to bring you more meaningful choices as you expand the city so you don’t just have to consider where to expand to, but also whether your city can sustain such an expansion. All in all we feel it strengthens the game pacing and improves the gameplay experience.

Of course, this new cost affects your ability to reach the edge of the playable area and create new Outside Connections, so let’s talk briefly about the cheapest way to create them early on. If you haven’t already noticed, map tile costs are affected by what is available in them - buildable land, resources, etc - making tiles with a lot of water the cheapest. This makes buying ocean tiles the absolute cheapest way to go if your city needs that new Outside Connection as soon as possible. You can then create a bridge or pipeline to the edge of the playable area. Or you can use the terrain tools to create a more realistic landbridge and build a road on top of it, but keep in mind that more land inside the tile affects its upkeep cost.

View attachment 1154419
The UI has been updated to show not only the cost of new tiles but also the Tile Upkeep they come with.

If you’re continuing an existing save, you may have unlocked a lot of map tiles that now come with a high Tile Upkeep. You may be able to expand your city to build additional tax income to offset this cost, but if you have built villages or rural towns on the map using either Unlock All or a mod to unlock map tiles, that may just be too much to cover. In that case, we recommend enabling Unlock Map Tiles under Map Options the next time you load your save. While this does disable achievements, it also disables the Tile Upkeep so you can continue your city. This option is also great if you enjoy building small towns or villages and don’t want to skip the Milestone progression.

We have already seen some great feedback on the Tile Upkeep, both from those who like it and those who don’t. We will continue to follow discussions about the current state of the game, not only in regards to the Tile Upkeep, so we can further refine the gameplay and balance to provide the best possible experience for you while maintaining our goals for the game. We also have a survey where you can share your thoughts, currently available through the launcher.

Please keep in mind that iterating game features and balance takes time, so even when we agree with your feedback, we may not be able to address it for a while. Nevertheless, we greatly appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts about the game and the changes we make. We look forward to reading it and continuing development in the fall. Thank you for being a part of this journey.

I do love this idea as well as everything else but me, myself find it a bit to hard. I think you should be able to choose a difficult level. ie Easy, Normal or Hard and within them levels you can change the cost of tiles as well as traffic levels etc. As a beginner i feel it is a little to hard and i still haven't found the right balance.

 

[SuspectPizza]

I think this is a really great idea. But something should be done to address the outside connections maybe - it's a great addition to CS2, but now that tiles have an upkeep cost, it makes building those connections more difficult (powerlines, rail, ...). Of course, you can use Anarchy for that, but that might not be possible on consoles for example. I feel like there's definitely a better way to handle the interaction of these two systems.