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Developer Corner | Support Companies

Greetings all!

Today we’ll be taking a dive into one of the fundamental building blocks of HOI4: division design, and some changes we’re making to it. This dev corner might be a little less grand than previous dev corners, but division design remains extremely important to the HOI experience, and is a part of the game that’s remained more or less untouched since release.

Those of you with exceedingly long memories may remember in my early roadmap for Hearts of Iron that I mentioned a desire to have doctrines better affect how the player is incentivized to design their divisions. The first step of making this possible is by adding another dimension of choice to support companies.

Support Company Changes
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Here’s a look at one of Germany’s starting templates. Ordinarily, engineers would grant a bonus of 5 entrenchment at their most basic level: here, we’re getting 2 (Ed: 2.25 actually… we’ll fix that in post).
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And here, in a little more detail - is the breakdown of why. Here, Engineers no longer begin by applying a flat bonus of 5 entrenchment - instead, their initial stats will grant a bonus of 0.25 entrenchment per Leg Infantry battalion in their division.
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As you can see, this bonus is not applied to the cavalry battalions I have so wisely placed in my infantry division. We’ll go into the rationale behind this specific change later, but suffice it to say the following:

Support companies can now confer multiplicative or additive bonuses to line battalions of specific categories within their own division.

While it may seem like a small change, this allows us to better represent the effects of certain doctrinal advancements or technologies, and adds a completely new dimension to consider when choosing support companies.

Changes to Existing Support Companies [very subject to change]

Engineers

As you can see above, Engineers will be changing a bit. They’ll retain the flat entrenchment they gain from tech, but by moving entrenchment more towards a per-battalion balancing value, we’re able to flatten the efficacy of entrenchment and devalue it slightly for org-wall playstyles. Entrenchment itself is a multiplicative stat of course, so we take care to ensure that the upper end does not move too far ahead of what was previously achievable.

Recon
The neglected child of the support company family is finally getting some new tools. Recon has always been an underperforming support company, and these changes aim to augment the value of tactical reconnaissance on the battlefield. By default, mounted recon, motorized recon, and armored car recon companies will now confer a [10%] soft attack bonus to all battalions matching the Artillery category.

Note: we’re making the choice to stress the benefits of recon on artillery rather than general infantry here for game balance reasons.

Light Tank recon will confer a [10%] Hard Attack bonus to all Armored battalions.

Recon also gets some other new toys, some of which we’ll cover in doctrines, and others in a later diary on some New Cool Stuff (™).

Field Hospital
A slightly left-field modifier here, Field Hospitals now increase the strength (HP) of all infantry battalions within their division by [10%]. This results in proportionally less manpower (& equipment) loss per damage received.

Flame Tanks
These now increase the breakthrough of all infantry battalions by [5%].

Military Police
A support company with low usage outside of specific garrison templates, we wanted to give these slightly more utility within line divisions. These will now increase the base org recovery rate of all infantry battalions by 20%.

Doctrine Changes

We’re still working on exactly how these will look, but here’s a sample of what we have planned:
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Dispersed Support: Signal companies grant 10% defense to all Artillery battalions in division
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Airland Battle: Standard recon grants 10% air attack to anti-air battalions in division
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Mechanized Wave: Armored Car recon grants 1 max organization to all Leg Infantry battalions in division.
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Central Planning: Logistics Company adds 5% defense to all infantry battalions in division

As mentioned above we have more planned for these, but this should serve as an indicative sample of what is coming. These changes are intended to add an extra dimension to consider when building division templates, accentuating the value of interdisciplinary coordination. They also give us an opportunity to equalize the value of some underperforming support companies in a slightly more realistic way than flat stats.

Of course, the production value of your bonus-granting support companies will be weighted more favorably towards larger divisions - this is something we’re keeping an eye on, but broadly speaking we’re happy with this direction.

As well as being a significant balance change (and modding tool) these changes were necessary for a new small feature we’ll show off in a future diary. I’ll leave you guessing until then ;)

Speaking of dev diaries, we will call you to arms next week for something special… stay tuned, and save the date!

/Arheo
 
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Engineers
As you can see above, Engineers will be changing a bit. They’ll retain the flat entrenchment they gain from tech, but by moving entrenchment more towards a per-battalion balancing value, we’re able to flatten the efficacy of entrenchment and devalue it slightly for org-wall playstyles. Entrenchment itself is a multiplicative stat of course, so we take care to ensure that the upper end does not move too far ahead of what was previously achievable.

Military Police
A support company with low usage outside of specific garrison templates, we wanted to give these slightly more utility within line divisions. These will now increase the base org recovery rate of all infantry battalions by 20%.
If one of the goals was to weaken org-wall playstyles, I think the change to military police undoes all of the progress made by the changes to engineer companies. 20% extra recovery rate makes org walls with mass assault even harder to break than before. The primary user of this strategy (the USSR) will happily take the 20% extra recovery and doesn't really miss the flat entrenchment from level 1 engineers very much. The USSR can already get +5 from an ambusher general, +2.5 from an ambusher field marshal, +5 from mass assault doctrine, and +5 from the experts in camouflage focus. On top of this, it can get +10% from the static warfare officer corps spirit, +30% from a defensive doctrine field marshal, and +5% from the Military Engineering University focus. A +5 flat entrenchment bonus seems like a lot considering it would double the base of 5, but on the USSR losing +5 entrenchment when it still has +17.5 flat bonus and +45% entrenchment is not a very big deal.

Also, when org-walling entrenchment isn't really a very big factor. You lose your entrenchment when you get cycled out and back in to the combat, which is what org-walling is. Org walling is taking losses, your divisions running out of org and retreating, other divisions continuing the fight while the pushed out divisions recover, and then the first set of divisions recovering and rejoining the fight faster than the attacker can push out every division on the tile. Recovery rate (and reinforce rate) is mainly what lets your divisions get back into the fight to continue the org wall before all your divisions retreat.

I think the USSR will be very strong and maybe close to impossible to push in multiplayer with the change to military police.
 
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I've already stated a few times that ACs belong in the tank designer. We won't be making that change this time, but I don't think that should stop us making changes related to it.
About that have the armoured car production moved from infantry equipments production to armoured production?
 
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Nice change overall. I mean, building trenches for cavalaries? Gimme a break lol

Can't wait.
Exactly, and I was worried that the importance of combat engineers to reconnaissance/counter-reconnaissance might be missed, but the changes to soft attack of artillery beautifully simulate the role of mobile infantry utilizing observed obstacles with coordinated fires.
 
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Engineers no longer providing entrenched to cavalry sorta makes sense, but will the other modifiers of the support company still apply? Such as the terrain reductions and other important values.
 
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I can see how these changes will make Support Company design more interesting and they're certainly due a second look.

However, I do hope that this doesn't get too complex. Even after >1,000 hours playing this game, I still mix up which Support Companies have which effects. They're the only aspect of the game for which I had to make and print a cheatsheet, which I still need to use. Yes, some companies/effects are obvious: "use Field Hospital if you're short of manpower" and "use Logistics in difficult terrain". But others are not: "is it Logistics or Maintenance that rescues equipment from the battleground?" and "which level of Engineers do I need to attack across rivers?"

It's not helped by the fact that the UI is confusing. In particular, the second screenshot shows fort bonuses like this:

1685551866678.png


But actually, these effects only apply when attacking, not defending. That tooltip wording is almost misleading, and is especially unfortunate in the case of Engineers, which many players regard as a choice for defensive divisions.

I think these changes, together with any MIO buffs to Support Companies, could make it even more difficult to work out what is going on. I hope you will consider reviewing the tooltips for Support Companies as you make these changes.
 
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And here, in a little more detail - is the breakdown of why. Here, Engineers no longer begin by applying a flat bonus of 5 entrenchment - instead, their initial stats will grant a bonus of 0.25 entrenchment per Leg Infantry battalion in their division.
Is how this works explained in the game itself somewhere? Just looking at the tooltips shown, I don't see anything that would imply to me (effectively a new player, as it has been ages since I've played) that the bonus the support company grants is per battalion in the division. For all that this is probably a better way to do things, flat bonuses are easier to understand and recognize at a glance, especially in a long tooltip with just modifier names and numbers like the ones shown. (This is where the nested tooltips the newer games have would come in handy, I think.)
 
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While you are in there Messing about with the designer, any though about finally making artillery Battalions into Battalions instead of regiments, they sort of stand out with 36 guns per "battalion" instead of the 12 that would be more historical(and a corresponding decrease of width to 1(like aa/at) and equipment stats to ⅓ of a regiment to keep balance, cost could be the same though)

Would go a long way to nail the 108 barrels of arty on a normal inf div that goes around(3 current "Battalions" when most historical divisions had 36-48 guns)

Support arty could be 4 guns instead.

Just something that has irked me since day one.
 
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How will supplementary support techs (engineer 2, engineer 3, recon 2, recon 3 etc) be handled now? Previously they provided flat increases on top of the flat bonuses of the first level of a given support company, but now they operate differently. Do they now provide flat increases to the per-battalion bonuses or is something entirely different on the table here?
 
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Military Police
A support company with low usage outside of specific garrison templates, we wanted to give these slightly more utility within line divisions. These will now increase the base org recovery rate of all infantry battalions by 20%.
Nice to see that MP gets a function in line divisions, but I wonder if the garrison effect could be revisited as well? It's big problem is that most of the time the extra minimum loss of support equipment coming with MP use outweights any manpower benefits you can achieve by using it.
 
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Always happy to see changes that enable multiple different strategies instead of just having a single obvious meta.
 
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Military Police
A support company with low usage outside of specific garrison templates, we wanted to give these slightly more utility within line divisions. These will now increase the base org recovery rate of all infantry battalions by 20%.

ðanc secȝan. The first good newes for the next dlc. As former german MP i was so unhappy how you deal with them. I had a plan for a mod Feldgendarmerie vs. Feldjäger. I have spend time to grave in my memory of education and service and read many history article. At the end my idea was a split path. At the one hand Feldgendarmerie jack of all trades with mainfocus of orga, speed and supply. The other hand Feldjäger with orga, high moral and few casualties. Alternate bonus of comand ability. A good political advisor was found: ready for "auskämmen" and "Heldenklau". But now you have sav much work.

Its good that you balanced the MP but i think the orgabonus sound better? MP take not realy care for high moral. Only in Warhammer 40k and Rusland or Feldjäger. I think good organisation how Feldgendarmerie sound better.

By the way warhammer 40k:


# defective_geneseed = { #needs more code support, remove before launch
# type = all
# trait_type = status_trait
# gain_xp = {
# OR = {
# has_division_template_spacemarine = yes
# has_chaos_corruption = yes
# }
# }
# cost = 400
# modifier = {
# geneseed_defect_factor = 1
# }
# }


##################################
# Special trait for exiled leaders
 
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I guess it's neat, but I guess I was hoping for something a lot more dramatic. Shuffling around 1 or 2 support companies isn't really something I'd have thought of as satisfying 'doctrines having more impact on division design'.
 
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Would go a long way to nail the 108 barrels of arty on a normal inf div that goes around(3 current "Battalions" when most historical divisions had 36-48 guns)
Most historical divisions had a lot more guns than that. German infantry division had a divisional artillery of 36x 10,5 cm and 12x 15 cm together with 3 regimental infantry gun companies which together had 18x 7,5 cm guns and 6x 15 cm for a total of 72 guns. The British divisional artillery numbered 72x 25 pdr. Everyone also had a large number of artillery pieces on the corps level. As corps are not represented in the game currently these guns should be equally distributed to individual divisions in some cases doubling the amount of divisional artillery. The game also abstracts all artillery to standard equipment units so when translating this into in game pieces would require a correction so larger guns aren't worth the same as small ones and that means these 72 guns should count as more in game artillery pieces (note that size and power of explosives in shells increases in a non linear way so 150mm has far more potential than two 75mm) . No matter how you look at it and even ignoring the corps (or higher) level artillery the real life numbers are larger than even 2 current battalions or 6 if we broke it up into 1 width units. For the record I also think breaking it up would be good allowing for more accurate divisions and more importantly greater flexibility when designing them but the claim about 36-48 guns is just wrong.
 
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Most historical divisions had a lot more guns than that. German infantry division had a divisional artillery of 36x 10,5 cm and 12x 15 cm together with 3 regimental infantry gun companies which together had 18x 7,5 cm guns and 6x 15 cm for a total of 72 guns. The British divisional artillery numbered 72x 25 pdr. Everyone also had a large number of artillery pieces on the corps level. As corps are not represented in the game currently these guns should be equally distributed to individual divisions in some cases doubling the amount of divisional artillery. The game also abstracts all artillery to standard equipment units so when translating this into in game pieces would require a correction so larger guns aren't worth the same as small ones and that means these 72 guns should count as more in game artillery pieces (note that size and power of explosives in shells increases in a non linear way so 150mm has far more potential than two 75mm) . No matter how you look at it and even ignoring the corps (or higher) level artillery the real life numbers are larger than even 2 current battalions or 6 if we broke it up into 1 width units. For the record I also think breaking it up would be good allowing for more accurate divisions and more importantly greater flexibility when designing them but the claim about 36-48 guns is just wrong.
Also, for game purposes, lets not forget that attrition is much higher for division equipment that have small amounts. For example, 12 artillery in a division attrits much faster than 72, due to the rounding bug.
 
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Military Police
A support company with low usage outside of specific garrison templates, we wanted to give these slightly more utility within line divisions. These will now increase the base org recovery rate of all infantry battalions by 20%.

/Arheo

Interesting. I've had something similar in my personal mod for quite some time now.

I'm always reminded of the old movie Battle of the Bulge (great movie by the way) that had one seen with American troops retreating quickly from the Germans. MP's were posted at all of the road junctures to make sure the retreating troops went the right way and assembled in the correct locations to recover quickly and assemble for defense. It's a great scene in the movie and it speaks well to this effect that MP's would have in divisional recovery.
 
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Great changes it seems like. Regarding Support Companies, the main problem imo with HOI4's Support Companies is the 5 Support Company hard cap which makes it impossible to create historical Divisions. As Divisions (especially of the industrialized advanced nations) generally had more than 5 Support elements. At a bare minimum you need 6 Support Companies to make historical Divisions, but really you need more than that. Because most Divisions had a Logistics Company by default. The game design and meta should be based on history as close as possible.

A nation like the U.S. would have a relatively small number (90-ish total) of moderate size and extremely well equipped and extremely well supported (and very expensive) Divisions. In contrast to a nation like Japan that had very large size Divisions which were poorly equipped and supported. If the player wants to create a lower number of very well equipped, very well supported and very expensive Divisions (like the U.S. had) they should be able to. I would change the hard cap to a soft cap of some kind. Or maybe a hard cap that can be increased somehow like with Research.

Regarding Engineers. The German's had what were basically Combat Engineers. Meaning they were focused more on combat than building things and were trained/equipped to a higher degree for close combat than their Western counterparts. I believe Combat Engineers need to be added, at least for Germany. Shaka wrote about this a lot.

Another change I would make is allowing all Divisions to capture enemy Equipment. Maybe at 1% level. Not just the ones with a Maintenance Support Company. Maintenance should just be much better at it.

The expert on this stuff was Shaka who passed away in late 2021.


 
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Dear Arheo please change design of "support" AA, AT, RART and AA. Instead of having "smaller" than line battallions and that is about it creating the forever problematic balance of either line or "support" battalion being clearly superior, why not make those more specialised. Support heavy artillery could be your "heavy, siege" artillery type, that instead of soft attack, would give you bonuses to fort damage. Support AA could be "heavy AA" like Flack36, that would be expensive but dual purpose support unit that can pierce tanks and give some AA protection. Support rart could be your really high calibre 210-330mm heavy rocket arty and provide bonus breakthrough, support AT - your very heavy AT cannons, so you can buy guaranteed piercing of anything but at a very high cost?
 
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