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Developer Diary | Norway Alt History!

Hej everyone, it’s me, Carlo! Katten has been staring at me from the other side of the office all morning, which can only mean one thing: it’s time for me to write another Dev Diary! Now, I’ve already talked about Historical Norway, the Joint Focus Tree, and modding stuff so there’s only one more thing I could write about, and that’s our favorite kamerat, LevTrotskij.

Known outside of Norway as Leon Trotsky, he was one of the most prominent members of the bolsheviks in the Soviet Union, renowned marxist theorist, known for his permanent revolution, and even more permanent exile. He was Lenin’s successor apparent, but Stanlin’s political maneuvering forced him out of the government and eventually out of the Soviet Union. After that, he was allowed to move to Norway, with the newspaper editor, Konrad Knudsen. So far so good.

01. Trotsky advisor.png

The important thing for us happens in an August much like this one, in 1936, when Quisling’s thugs ransacked Knudsen’s house, and would’ve gotten away with it if it wasn’t because Knudsen’s daughter drove them off. So much for the tolerant left, smh. This event will be represented in AAT’s Norway, regardless of the path you take, and it’s the start of trotskij’s event chain.

02. Trotsky’s place ransacked event.png

Historically, the pressure from fascists and stalinists was too much for the Nygaardsvold Cabinet, so he was put under house arrest in a farm in Hurum, which, by his own account, was one of the worst periods of his life. After that he was allowed into Mexico, and received by the artist Frida Kahlo and her husband Diego Rivera. And then they lived happily ever after. Though he was, indeed, kicked out when Diego Rivera found out he was having an affair with Frida Kahlo and then was killed with an ice pick by a Soviet Union agent. Other than that he had a good time in Mexico by all accounts.

03. Trotsky arrives to Mexico event.png

Of course, you don’t need to care about what happened historically. You can just imprison him, or send him to Mexico right away and use this altercation as a justification for increasing political repression, send him straight to Stalin, and even put him in government. Those last two are especially useful if you’re going the communist route by the way.

Communist Route?... Oh, right, that’s what I was supposed to write about, Alt History content for Norway! Since I already wrote about Trotskij’s fate, let me tell you about the options you have for
turning Norway even redder.

04. Norway Communist Branch.png

First step, the labor movement needs to regain its momentum, with the ‘A Resurgent Labor Movement’ focus. This will set Norway on to the path of Communism, but which one? You can compromise with the NKP to adopt their Stalinist stance or prosecute them and let the Labor Party embrace Trotskij’s teachings, and if you kept him in Norway you’ll also have him as an advisor and general.

05a. Compromise with the NKP.png

05b. Prosecute the NKP.png

Each path has advantages and disadvantages: you can be beholden to the Soviet Union and their support, or you can go your own path and bring the Permanent Revolution to the rest of the world.

Regardless of your communist goals, you will need to rouse the proletariat in states that are industrialized enough, and when you’re ready you can trigger the communist revolution and fight in a civil war against the old Norway! Now of course, riling up the workers has its cost, because they’ll do some heavy damage to your factories and infrastructure once they rise up for the revolution.

06. Rouse The Proletariat Decisions.png


Let’s take a better look at the ‘Rouse the Proletariat Decisions’. The first level will grant you the state once the civil war starts, but will leave your buildings in a pretty rough shape.

07. Rouse the Proletariat 1.png

You can reduce this damage by bringing it to Level 2 and you will also be granted 2 irregular divisions.

08. Rouse the Proletariat 2.png

Then if you’re really serious about that state you can fully rouse its working class, reducing the damage to the buildings and upgrading those troops to Militias.

09. Rouse the Proletariat 3.png

And before you think “But Carlo, what if I just rouse the whole country and I skip the civil war?”, I’ll tell you now, that won’t work. You will have to choose carefully how to approach these decisions, as you can’t go over 20 Total Support for the Revolution and no matter what, the other side will have Oslo.

Ok now, let’s go over the things you’ll be able to do once you’ve seized the means of production in Norway. If your senpai Stalin noticed you, there will be plenty of improvements to your industrial base, manpower and a close collaboration with the Soviet Union, and even help them invade Finland. Maybe the Arms Against Tyranny thing is just aspirational.

10. War in Finland Tooltip.png

If instead, you decided to go with uncle trotskij, as I said before, you’ll get an extra advisor and general, and that will put you behind the wheel of your very own communist faction, the Norintern with the focus ‘The Permanentest Revolution’. That’s what it’s actually called, and nobody has complained about it so I guess the name is final? Defend Finland, bring the war to Stalin, Sweden, Norway and even Hitler, bringing about a new, Trotskyist world order.

11.Permanentest Revolution Tooltip.png

To summarize, with Stalin you’ll get soldiers and industry. With Trotsky you’ll get easy wargoals and offensive bonuses. Your pick.

Now let’s move slightly to the right. To the allied democratic branch, which starts with a fictional Vote of No confidence that the Nygaardsvold government loses. This branch is what happens when militaristic industry tycoons take control of the government. It overlaps somewhat with the democratic branch, except you can skip the whole Broken Gun thing and go straight for rearmament, so you’ll have more time to get ready for what’s coming, but at the cost of a lot of civilian industry.

12. Alt Dem branch.png


This path leads to a more centralized government, so all the local preparations are pooled together, letting you start nation-wide initiatives, both during peacetime and war time.

13a. Military Preparedness Decisions.png

13b. Military Preparedness Decisions 2.png
13c. Military Preparedness Decisions 3.png


It also overlaps a little with the Trotskyist path, just not the commie parts, and you’ll be able to join the allies instead of forming your own faction.

14. Prepare for war and Join The Allies.png

Let’s keep going, I have actual work to do, so I’m gonna skip the historical path. A few things have changed, but not enough to care, and the dog is still there so onwards to the fascist path, which, of course there is one.

15 Fascist Path.png


It starts with The Stumbling Storting, in this reality the labor party fails to secure political stability for Norway, leaving the door open to fascists, and other undesirables.

16. Stumbling Storting event.png

Let’s go with Undesirable Elements #1, fascists. In this scenario Quisling is somewhat good at making people think he’s competent and that fascism is reasonable. The Nasjonal Samling will lurk in the shadows and build support for their agenda state by state, seeking support from the Fatherland League (A proto-fascist nationalist movement), industrialists, conservatives and even fascists abroad.

17. Lurk in the Shadows Decisions.png


Eventually, you’ll reach a familiar focus, ‘Quisling’s Coup’, except this time, you’re ready for it, you have built the support needed to make the takeover as easy as possible for you and the foreign fascist invaders, whom you invited! Yes, in this path you can invite the most suitable fascist regime to invade Norway so you can take over the government and help them on their fascist crusade. Don’t worry if they say no, that rejection will also allow you to start the coup without them, who needs Hitler anyway.

18. Nasjonal Samling Focus.png

The coup, as expected, will trigger a civil war in which, unlike the communist one, you’ll only control Oslofjord. That’s alright though, you prepared for this, which means that you can take over states where you built support in. If you only prepared base level support, you’ll get the state, not too shabby! But if you built more support, you will be rewarded for your efforts with a brand new Military Factory, and maybe even a couple of militias too if you fully prepared it.

19. Deploy Prep Decisions.png

This should put you on the right footing to start your fascist campaign, have fun making the world a worse place! Eventually, you’ll make it to your outlandish viking theme claims around the North Atlantic. Classic.

20. Old Vinland Tooltip.png

Now onto the last branch: The monarchist branch. For some reason a lot of people who want nordic focus trees also want a monarchist path, I can understand why, but I still think they’re wrong. I still made a monarchist path for Norway, whose king was reluctant to become their king, and even when he took over, by all accounts had no intention of becoming anything more than a figurehead.

21. Monarchist Branch.png


This reality starts much like the fascist one, with the Storting devolving into chaos, and the Royal Chamberlain, Anker Peder Wedel-Jarlsberg uses this opportunity to build support for a more involved monarchy, with his steady hand at the helm of course. Obviously, he is not part of the real Wedel-Jarlsberg noble family that lives in Norway, any similarities are purely coincidental, etc. He’s not Wedel-Jarlsberg with a ‘-’, his is a minus symbol. Just do me a favor and don’t tell the legal team, they don’t need to stress about it.

22. Anker Peder Wedel-Jarlsberg.png

Peder Anker will travel all around Norway proselytizing his monarchist cause, giving you bonuses for building defensive buildings, and adding more building slots, which will of course reduce the available manpower in the state, because, you know, they’re all busy being monarchists so they don’t have time to be soldiers.

23. Build Support for Monarchism Decisions.png

Except… If you go all the way with your monarchism you get 2 free militia divisions, and once you get the power as the Regent of Norway you can edit to your heart’s content. They’ve been so converted that they are now soldiers for monarchism.

24. Royal Militias.png

Once the Absolutist Regency is the rule of the land you’ll recruit the crown prince, Olav to join either the Navy or Army staff, since he was indeed employed in both during the war. In this case you’ll probably want him dedicating all his efforts on one thing, so he can become either a General or an Admiral and will allow you to specialize your country further.

25a. Olav to Army Staff.png
25b. Olav to Navy Staff.png


And of course you can get an extra set of outlandish claims. Faroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland, part of Russia, and even part of Sweden. At the end you’ll be able to consolidate your kingdom to make it easier for Peder Anker to rule over his king’s land.

26. Claims on Faroe Islands.png

And well that’s it. Obviously there’s tons more to unearth if you ask the right questions ;) and many more things I’ll either keep as a secret for release or haven’t implemented yet, like the new Trotskij portrait and the [Redacted] of [Redacted]. Also, don’t forget to stay tuned for the Sweden alt history Dev Diary, where you’ll see how wildly different the world would be if Sweden had privately managed vacation instead of state managed ones.
 
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I get the point with having Count Wedel-Jarlsberg as the "prime minister", and it's probably also how it would turn out in real life if history had gone different, so I don't mind. I think the issue some people have with it, is that it's not consistent with how other monarchies are portrayed in the game - The UK being a good example.
 
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I get the point with having Count Wedel-Jarlsberg as the "prime minister", and it's probably also how it would turn out in real life if history had gone different, so I don't mind. I think the issue some people have with it, is that it's not consistent with how other monarchies are portrayed in the game - The UK being a good example.
IMO only historical Japan and Qing which needs a remake since Hirohito and Puyi are a constitutional monarch.

Absolutist: Edward VIII, non-aligned George VI, Elizabeth II, Napoleon VI, Javier I, Dom Pedro III, Wilhelm II, Wilhelm III, Viktoria III, Vladimir III, Pavel, "Showa Restoration"ist Hirohito, "Assertiveness" Puyi, all Polish Monarch, Mindaugas III, non-aligned Giorgios II, Abdulmejid II, Durrushevar I, historical Boris III, Ferdinand I, Simeon II

Constitutional: George V, historical George VI, exiled Edward VIII, Shogunate and Historical Hirohito, Obedience Puyi, Democratic Wilhelm III, Haakon VII, historical Giorgios II, democratic Tsardom Boris III
 
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I kinda agree that it's kinda ridicules King Haakon taking more control. Though i think at the time Prince Olav would be in favor in the royal familiy gathering more power, as he from my knowledge wasn't satiated with Norway de-miletaryzing due too the politicans. So that route i think would maybe be a smater route, and instead of going full monarchist there could be elections held, but King Haakon is always the Nations Country Leader, and the PM instead get's on the advisor thing or is a natinal spirit.
 
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I get the point with having Count Wedel-Jarlsberg as the "prime minister", and it's probably also how it would turn out in real life if history had gone different, so I don't mind. I think the issue some people have with it, is that it's not consistent with how other monarchies are portrayed in the game - The UK being a good example.

Yeah, also he's a good person from what i know. Also, i don't see monarchist necessary as evil, it always depends on what they actually do with their power. Though i kinda miss any mentions of Oberst Birger K. Eriksen, like he be cool too have something around.
 
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I appreciate the developers trying to reach out and mitigate some of the pushback this DD and developer responses have received. That gives some hope that at least some of the feedback can be used to improve what has been shown thus far. As I produce yet another "wall of text", I want to stress that my feedback is not in any way intended as rude or unkind, and that if it is received as such, that is probably due to lack of language skills on my part. I also hope it does not come over as purely whining or "butthurtness", and that it can at least be useful to some.

As mentioned, the first DD left me quite concerned about the direction of the Norwegian content, and this DD ended up reinforcing those concerns. Still, I feel like this isnt purely down to any induvidual developer, but does give the impression that the overall direction and management of the DLC could be a bit better. I did outline a number of concerns in two lengthy posts, and trying to limit my obsessiveness with this DLC, I have linked to those rather than repeating it all in this rather lengthy post.

To summarize it, I think my main concerns can be put into two boxes; paralell efforts to develop less good solutions to problems the other nations content solved better and a direction begging the question who this (Norwegian) content is actually for made for.

Again, I wont go too much into detail, but for instance seeing how the Danish content tries to model the hard priorities between warfare and welfare spending, I am left wondering why the Norwegian approach to the same real world problem is a "push button to develop region"-mechanic, that seems to fit better with one or two alt history focus tree branches. There are numerous other examples, but my main point is that it seems like there is a lot of effort being used to develop less good mechanics, a lack of implementation of good existing ones and some priorities I find difficult to understand. If diversifying the nations is a priority, one could probably achieve that by "adding" content rather than "reinventing" existing solutions, and I just find it frustrating that there is so much good content developed for this DLC that could have been exploited more.

The "who is this content actually made for-box" is, I think, illustrated well by these two DDs, and perhaps most blatant in the latter. The first DD approached the Norwegian content from an angle that seemed based on a somewhat flawed conception of the political situation at the time, and overfocused on the "LOLs" and "memeness", such as a tank that saw no real world action, while lacking any of the "cool" stuff that would make you want to play Norway. The second DD contains a monarchist branch without the monarch, justified with the developers personel feelings towards monarchy. In both DDs, I really question who this is meant to cater to, because I would think that players who wants to play as Norway isnt primarily doing so for the "LOLs" or "memes", and the person wanting a monarchist branch doesnt want that branch primarily so they can not have the monarch.

For both boxes, I really feel that some management direction could have a huge positive impact. Limiting double work, choosing the better mechanic and having more development time for new cool stuff seems like a net win. From a marketing standpoint, creating content that satisfies the part of the playerbase actually eager to play that content seems like a huge benefit.

And that latter part is perhaps what I find most surprising. If I can navel gaze for a minute, I am one of those that have been hoping for a Nordic DLC (and Norwegian content specifically) since the games initial release, and I was initially really looking forward to this. Self obsessing a bit, I would think I would be the exact target audience for the Norwegian content, yet right now, I dont see myself buying this DLC at release. Not as a protest or because I dont want HOI and Paradox to succeed, I really do. It is just that seeing the direction the Norwegian content has taken, I am unable to drum up much enthusiasm, in stead feeling a degree of frustration about what could have been.

I am writing this in hope that some management direction could alleviate this some, or at least that lessons could be learned for development of future games and content. In any case, thank you for the continued support for the game and your continued work to improve upon it. No matter how this content turns out, HOI4 is still a great achievement and if my concerns prove justified, I can still take Carlos advice and turn (back) to mods.
 
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The second DD contains a monarchist branch without the monarch, justified with the developers personel feelings towards monarchy.
If I wanted to depict monarchism in a bad light I would make every single monarchist path a dictatorship where the monarch just conquers a bunch of stuff for no reason. Which is basically every non-historical monarchist tree but this one.

But players don't want a realistic path where the monarchy just sits there doing nothing, because contradictory to what you are saying players WANT these trees to be memey and for every alt path to just be being a rogue state.

The idea that the venn diagram of what players want from a monarchist tree and memeyness aren't a nearly perfect circle is just absurd. Just look at the reactions to the different French monarchist trees. Nobody cares about the ones where you functionally just sit there/hope for RNG to spawn the Carlists in Spain. They want to play le epic Napoleon bacon narwhal.
 
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Because contradictory to what you are saying players WANT these trees to be memey and for every alt path to just be being a rogue state.

[snip] Just look at the reactions to the different French monarchist trees. Nobody cares about the ones where you functionally just sit there/hope for RNG to spawn the Carlists in Spain. They want to play le epic Napoleon bacon narwhal.
Ooh, yeah! I feel that one so much!

Someone played Dutch East Indies live with my mod recently. He's doing good, just recently gained independence as Commonwealth of Indonesia through cooperation and mutual understanding from the liberal Dutchmen and cooperative Bumiputras, and has fended off the might of the Japanese Empire with the help of the Allies. The viewers got angry when the East Indies got broken up with Eastern Indonesia is divided into 3 puppets, despite the fact that they cannot be fully independent, being part of the Nusantara Accord. And the viewers wanted him to IMMEDIATELY leave the Allies and somehow backstab them and joining the Comintern to blobbing through Southeast Asia, just because the only mechanics and focus tree available on the path is to ask every League of Nations Mandate holders to grant them self-rule (too boring, they said).

His viewers even accused me as a Dutch puppet when i told them that the branch is still pro-Allied and they would going against the historical facts which has shaped my intended narrative for that branch, self-rule for East Indonesia (and eventually, Southeast Asia and also the Asian continent in the end) and all. I mean, granted that the anti-Dutch political branches is not yet appeared at that time, but i already told them that when the update is coming they can ask him to play those paths.

The streamer is very understanding with me, but sometime the viewers (who appropriately has some unfortunate things to be put up as their profile picture and usernames) puts me off with their blobbing fantasies.
 
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The problem is that even if the oil were to be discovered, the offshore oil industry was just starting to build rigs within few kilometers of coast after ww2. The Norwegian North Sea oil fields are located about 100km from the coast. The technology to extract it just didn't exist in the 40s.
It's true that the technology just wasn't there yet historically. However, the game hasn't exactly always followed realism anyway, so there's a possibility that it could be included in some very limited form. I'm personally more in favor of realism in this case though.

Communism is the desire for a classless, stateless, moneyless society. While you can say that's an unattainable goal, there's no inherent violence there. Fascism is inherently about a society defined by, among other points, authoritarianism and censorship, cronyism, and scapegoating and persecution of minorities. Do you see a slight difference?

If you're trying to "both sides" fascism and communism because people who happened to identify as the latter have done horrible things, then you might as well say democracy is a horribly evil system because countries that happened to be democratic have done terrible things throughout history. "I'll never support democracy and elections, look what America did to Viet Nam!".
Yeah, there's definitely no correlation at all between communism and oppressive governments (...). The main point was that I think it's unreasonable to say that "Mussolini was extremely evil, but Stalin was just an asshole".
 
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*at best

In my view, he painted both as the same, and i'm cool with that. The fact that we're going several posts talking about this just because someone purposely ignore the "at best" phrase is mildly infuriating to me and i'm keen to hammer down the fact that he added that phrase.

Okay, i'm off to the new devdiary.
 
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Yeah, there's definitely no correlation at all between communism and oppressive governments (...). The main point was that I think it's unreasonable to say that "Mussolini was extremely evil, but Stalin was just an asshole".
Nice backpedalling, with a strawman for good measure. How predictable.
 
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OT question that's been bugging me: would the USA/English "think tank" translate to "tanke tank" in Norwegian?
 
OT question that's been bugging me: would the USA/English "think tank" translate to "tanke tank" in Norwegian?
Tenketank. We use compound words. But yes.
 
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If I wanted to depict monarchism in a bad light I would make every single monarchist path a dictatorship where the monarch just conquers a bunch of stuff for no reason. Which is basically every non-historical monarchist tree but this one.

But players don't want a realistic path where the monarchy just sits there doing nothing, because contradictory to what you are saying players WANT these trees to be memey and for every alt path to just be being a rogue state.

The idea that the venn diagram of what players want from a monarchist tree and memeyness aren't a nearly perfect circle is just absurd. Just look at the reactions to the different French monarchist trees. Nobody cares about the ones where you functionally just sit there/hope for RNG to spawn the Carlists in Spain. They want to play le epic Napoleon bacon narwhal.
Sure, you could argue that monarchist paths can get quite memey but then you are actually reserving the ‘memeyness’ to something players actually want (as you point out) rather than where few people seemingly wanted it.
OT question that's been bugging me: would the USA/English "think tank" translate to "tanke tank" in Norwegian?
Tenketank (To think=å tenke)
 
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Nice backpedalling, with a strawman for good measure. How predictable.
I would have liked to make a longer and better response, but after being banned for 3 days for posting off topic, I decided to keep it short and cut corners. I suppose these posts might be removed as well at any point. (btw, the comment about communism is sarcasm)
 
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Very odd that a bear can rule poland yet the King of Norway cannot directly rule Norway.. Anyways. Can the Hirohito portait be changed too something more suitable and less ugly? The current potrait isn't a photo but a unflattering drawing from TIME Magazine.
 
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Rereading the DD and comparing it with the recent Swedish DD, I do find the decision to have almost all focus trees revolve around a "press button to develope/gain support in region, and eventually get militia divisions" a bit strange. I would have hoped that could be limited to one or two focuses, rather than having the same minigame for all directions. Comparing this approach with the one outlined in the recent "alt history" Sweden DD, I cant help but feel that the Norwegian content would benefit from adopting some of that approach:

Players will have to walk a tightrope between lowering stability enough to gain support for radical political changes, while not enraging the political opposition too hastily and triggering civil disobedience.


Again, I feel like all the nations content could benefit from more sharing and diversifying of solutions. While the Swedish and Danish approaches of balancing different considerations seems significantly more interesting and historically accurate, the "push button to develop"-minigame could be a really interesting implementation for one or two alt history branches for each nation.
 
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