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Economy 2.0 Dev Diary #1

Hello again! We are back with another development diary. This time we look at the economy re-work or as we like to call it “Economy 2.0” set to release within the upcoming two weeks. You’ve shared a lot of great feedback with us, from bringing bugs to our attention to sharing how you feel while playing the game. As we went through your feedback, it became clear that certain systems, particularly the economic simulation, weren’t transparent enough and didn’t allow you enough control over your city. We felt this was important to improve, so for the past few months, we have overhauled several systems based on your feedback.

Before we get into the nitty-gritty of these changes, we want to thank you for the detailed and constructive feedback you shared. It really helped us understand what issues you experienced, what information you lacked, and how we could improve things. We look forward to hearing your feedback following these changes so we can continue to work on improving Cities: Skylines II and make it the best it possibly can be.

Alright, let’s get to it! Our goal with Economy 2.0 was to make the systems more straightforward and responsive, so you can make more meaningful choices and have more control over the various gameplay aspects. This means fewer safeguards and automated systems that work invisibly under the surface and an increased level of challenge. We still aim for the game to be playable without paying too much attention to where and how money and resources flow in the city so new players have a chance to succeed, while still leaving room for experienced players to benefit from optimizing their city. We’ll get into the details below but to give you a quick overview here are the major changes of Economy 2.0:

  • Government Subsidies have been removed to make the economy more challenging and transparent
  • Importing City Services from Outside Connections now has a toggle and a fee
  • City Service Upkeep costs have been increased
  • Calculations for Demand have been improved
  • New calculations for rent and household spending allow citizens to afford to live in Low Density Residential
  • The production chain has been rebalanced to bring tax income to a more reasonable level


THE ECONOMY
A key point in the feedback we received was that the game didn’t challenge many of you when it comes to managing the city’s finances. Striking the right balance is hard. We want new players to be able to dive into the game while still providing players from Cities: Skylines or long-term fans of the city-building genre a challenge. We introduced Government Subsidies in Cities: Skylines II to act as a helping hand as your city got established, allowing them to scale with expenses. But they also removed agency and consequences from the game. Why build a city with a well-balanced economy if the government will cover all the expenses of your Utopia?

We considered several approaches to Government Subsidies but in the end, we decided to completely remove them from the city budget. This puts you in full control of your city’s finances and gives you a reason to consider what you spend your money on and when. It will be up to you to create a profitable city, and when you succeed, you get to take all the credit. If you struggle to get the hang of it, the in-game tutorials are there to help you out and the tips can always be accessed through the Advisor (the question mark in the top-right corner of the screen). And of course, you can always ask us or your fellow players for help.

MONEY
Money makes the world, or in this case the city, go round. In Cities: Skylines II, money circulates both within the city and in and out of the simulation through money sources and sinks. We work with 4 entities in Cities: Skylines II:
  • You, the player/the city
  • Households
  • Companies
  • Abstracted investors

Each of these has ways they can gain or lose money, some of which are preset and automatic, some of which are within your control. Below we have a quick overview of these to give you a sense of how money flows in your city, and how you can affect it.

Money.png


CITY SERVICES
As you can see, City Service construction and upkeep, along with roads of course, are where most (if not all) of your money goes. In Economy 2.0 we’ve rebalanced the costs of City Services which includes a significant increase in the upkeep costs. Our goal here is to give your choices more meaning as your city grows. Is your city’s economy strong enough to afford a University or will you have to increase taxes to pay for it? Can you afford to improve the city’s mail service to make citizens happy or will that have to wait until your economy is more stable? These are the kinds of questions we hope you will be asking yourself as you play with the update.

But services aren’t just available locally in your city. Your neighbors can provide you with garbage trucks or ambulances from Outside Connections if your city isn’t quite able to provide those for your citizens yet. With our initial design, the only cost of importing services (excluding Electricity and Water and Sewage) was the time it took the service vehicles to arrive and perform the needed tasks. Economy 2.0 changes that by adding a fee for importing services, which scales with the city’s population.

Now, we can’t add a fee and not give you a way to avoid it, so we have added a new City Policy called Import City Services. It works as a toggle: When it’s enabled your city can and will import services that are lacking in your city, and when it’s disabled, which is the default, your city relies on what’s available locally. In its current form, it’s an all-or-nothing toggle, but we are considering expanding the service import to give you more control. What do you think, any particular direction you would like us to take? We’d love to hear your thoughts.

CityPolicy.png

City Policies can be found by clicking the City Information button next to the demand bars


LIFE IN THE CITY
While we call this systems rework “Economy 2.0” it affects more than just the economic simulation. To complement both the changes to the financial side of the game and the improvements to the Land Value system in patch 1.1.0f1, we’ve made improvements to Demand, Rent, Education, and Citizen Happiness. These changes affect your citizens’ lives, and how and where they choose to live.

DEMAND
Most noticeable are the changes to how Demand is calculated, allowing it to be more responsive and more accurately reflect the state of the city at any given time. Residential demand has been expanded so the desired density is tied to the size and wealth of households. On average low density residential is the most expensive type of housing as a single household is responsible for the building’s expenses (paying Rent and Upkeep), while residents in medium and high density can split the costs. When wealthier households move into the city, the demand for low density increases, and when citizens with lower wealth, such as students, want to move in, the demand for high density goes up. Similarly, families will want more space, preferring low or medium density homes, while singles are perfectly happy with the smaller homes found in high density apartment complexes.

The type of households that spawn are determined by the average citizen happiness, homelessness in the city, the residential tax rates, available education spots, and open job positions.

Turning our attention to commercial demand, it’s now more closely tied to what households need. The more households consume, the more demand for commercial zones you’ll see. We’ve tweaked the household need for shopping, forcing them to pay rent and consider the garbage fee before going shopping. Furthermore, we have also tied the types of companies that can inhabit commercial buildings more closely to the products citizens consume. This means you’re less likely to see a bunch of the same companies spawn as the simulation seeks to provide a more varied selection of products for your citizens.

Both office and industry demand have been adjusted to a more reasonable level to match the other zone types, and their interactions with commercial have been strengthened, so you can produce what your shops need locally. Additionally, industry now has more workplaces so you can satisfy the demand more easily.

EDUCATION AND WORK
We’ve made tweaks to education before, particularly to encourage more teens to go to high school, but we didn’t quite reach our goals, so Economy 2.0 includes further improvements to the education system. Children always go to elementary school if the city has one with available student spots, while teens have a high chance of going to high school. Some will still choose to work, especially if no school is available, but you should see more teens in high school. We’ve also improved the chance they graduate from both elementary and high school, and for those adults who didn’t get their high school diploma, there is now a chance, albeit low, to apply to a high school with available student spots so that they can graduate.

Teens and adults can both join the workforce if there are suitable jobs for them. However, if they have health problems, such as being sick or injured, they don’t count as employable citizens and will need to recover before they can work. They may find work in the city, if any job positions with their skill level or lower are available, or they may resort to finding work in a neighboring city, though working in Outside Connections is less desirable with this rework.

If they cannot find work, they become unemployed and receive unemployment from the government. However, this option is only available for a limited time, so if you don’t provide them with suitable jobs, they will eventually have no other option than to leave the city as they cannot pay their rent.


BUILDING A BUSINESS
Your city consists of more than just citizens though, many businesses make it their home too, and demand isn’t the only thing we tweaked for commercial, industry, and office. Let’s take a look at what else has changed, starting with production. You already know the basics: One or more input resources are processed and turned into a more refined product, which requires both workers and time. Higher education level workers do this more efficiently (they work smarter, not harder), and each product has a certain amount of work needed to produce one unit. Previously, the game calculated the amount of work needed at the start of the game, but we have changed that to a preconfigured amount to make the game more predictable and allow us to finetune things. Additionally, we have adjusted the amount of work needed to produce a single unit for all products reducing the overall production, which in turn reduces the company profits, and by extension, the amount of tax you can collect from them.

But that’s not all. The price of resources has been adjusted as well as how it’s calculated. It now has two parts: A discounted price paid by industrial companies when they purchase materials for their production, and a normal price for commercial companies to purchase the goods. The two prices are then combined into one as they’re sold to consumers, allowing everyone to profit (hopefully, at least) from the sales. But don’t worry about the consumers, we have also increased the wages companies pay so the citizens can afford both their homes and the resources they need.

Alright, that was a lot of information! With that, we’ll end today’s dev diary, but don’t miss part 2 coming next week where we look at Rent, Building Upgrades, and what happens to existing cities. In the meantime, we’d love to hear your thoughts on what’s to come. Any changes you’re particularly excited about? Any that leave you with questions? Let us know in the comments below.
 
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Maybe because this post was about rebalancing the game, not bugfixes. You can bet the patch notes will have a fair amount of those even if they aren't mentioned anywhere before.

You know you can set up your lines to outside connections, right? Buses and trains can be unlocked fairy early so your need for intercity public transport is resolved before the city starts to take shape.
Not the same thing. You know that.
 
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This all sounds like it's going in the right direction, but I have one big question:
Are you going to fix the bug where dead people keep wandering around town, buying new houses?

This *has* to be seriously messing up the economic model. I am envisioning Economy 2.0 but still with dead people buying new houses, and of course it wouldn't work right.


I see that another commenter has mentioned other similar problems: babies with jobs, etc. etc. The basics have to be working right for the economic model to work. So far I see no reports on fixing these very fundamental bugs.
 
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Importing (and exporting) services should be granular, because a city's needs are resources are shaped by their location and policies. I might be able to build all sorts of cheap renewable energy, but still have no place for my trash and sewage. And vice versa.

And speaking of pollution, there needs to be some way to mitigate polluted areas when the source of pollution is removed. It might be expensive and/or take a long time to implement, but there should be something.
Yes, of course.

In the real world, the municipality I live in has its own water system, pays to export its sewage to a neighbor, pays a neighbor for fire protection services, has its own trash system, has its own police, has its own schools.

Each service should have an "import this service or don't" button.
 
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(observations I've made over time about Cities: Skylines 2's taxes. I may be wrong on some, and others may appear in developer diaries in the future. Sorry for the huge text)

OBSERVATIONS ABOUT CITIES 2'S TAX SYSTEM

Well, this is something I've been complaining about since before the game's release: the economic system. They announced that the game would have a "mega complete super economic system" and indeed, it is very complete. But there are some strange things to note about this system.
1 - "High rent": Rent is not equivalent to tax. If rent is not equivalent to tax, does that mean that only a small part of the city has its own residence? Since, even though they reduce taxes, they still complain about high rent. And if you change the zoning of the area where the houses were complaining about high rent, it will take a long time (and a long time) to build medium-density buildings there.
2 - Tax collection: The most wrong thing, in my humble opinion. Since before the game was released, I have been talking about how wrong it is to charge taxes based on a citizen's level of education, since EDUCATION DOES NOT MEAN WEALTH, and there are poorly educated rich people and very well educated poor people, and this applies to the game. It is not possible to charge taxes in a way that helps the poorest to move up the social class, since, in theory, the poorest would be the least educated, and the richest would be the most educated. I took an example from my own city: the richest pay less tax than the poorest just because of their level of education (it's a great way to evade taxes). " but the higher the level of education, the better the opportunity to get a job that pays more." Indeed, by the time citizens get a job that pays more, they will probably have already succumbed to poverty, just imagine a city with moderate unemployment. And I'll say more: This form of tax collection is even a certain "disincentive" to education, since it's as I said before: education does not mean wealth. The guy will become more educated, and will pay more taxes before he even starts to get rich. What's the logic? The charge should be across social classes in fact, since there are no "rich poor" or "poor rich". Colossal should pay more attention to the actual social classes in the game, as they are part of the economic system. This would also make it possible to create more "peripheral" neighborhoods and richer neighborhoods. It's not impossible, as there is even "affordable housing" zoning in the game. Anyway, sorry for the text, these are just boring observations about tax collection.
Yeah, this is going to be an essential fix. You cannot have a tax system based on education level, the results will just be weird, nobody in the entire world actually does that.
 
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I wonder if there’ll be a milestones rework to be more challenging while the city is growing. Now I think it‘s all compressed in the first half of the milestone, and after nothing more. I thought that was because of the simulation and graphic issues with high population, but maybe it’s different.
Moreover, the signature buildings are broken and someone it’s using a way too much resources, for example the refinery is using several thousands of tons of grain, that you can’t produce.
I hope that one by one, all issues will be fixed.
Thanks
 
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These two things don't go well together. Trains are making noise, a lot of noise as s matter of fact.
I don't know what to tell you. Again, I've lived near a train station, and I ride trains many times a week. Yes, they make noise, but trains approaching or leaving a station are fairly quiet, even when you stand at the platform next to them. In CS, you can place a train station and the station itself makes so much noise that citizens a hundred meters away, even in a middle-high density urban setting, get sick (!). That's not realistic. Again, that's as far as I lived from a station, in a city centre, and I didn't even hear the trains.

Edit to add: not even passing trains at high speed really make all that much noise. The train station closest to me has cargo trains passing regularly, at full speed. There are apartment buildings within a stone throw of the tracks. No complaints. Even standing at the platform the noise isn't really that bothersome.
 
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. Any changes you’re particularly excited about? Any that leave you with questions? Let us know in the comments below.
Not sure about exicted, but could be pleased by:
Getting rid of the subsidy. That was making the game "zero challenge". As I have commented almost a year ago... the game works like this: Wait for level up. Plop some zones and buildings, without a care in the world as to what things cost. Walk the dogs. When you come back the game has levelled up. Works like that at least until level 5, and mostly to level 10.
Stopping the imported services. You can make a tiny district with many services, such as garbage, funeral, but some outside truck gets ordered instead and houses get abandoned while a herse craws100 miles though traffic from another city.
The possibilty of "level 5 low density" working without mods (need to see that to believe it).
To get excited, real support for mods with assets, and a large number of bug fixes, performace fixes etc. Getting all the DLC that I already paid for and seems to be 1 year late.
 
Will having a dog cost money? And having more then one dog increase the cost according?
I have just watched a bit while my cims were walking over a bridge. Most had no dog, fine, some one, also fine, but some at least four, really four dogs? Somehow the probability to have more then one dog should be reduced, significantly
 
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Any changes you’re particularly excited about? Any that leave you with questions? Let us know in the comments below.

"Let us know in the comments below" apparently means: Comment, we don't care.

You don't even respond to basic questions!!!
Why in the world would you look at the suggestions subsection if you can't even answer questions? Is there a time limit after an official post to ask questions before you ignore it?

Honestly this is pathetic
 
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I don't know what to tell you. Again, I've lived near a train station, and I ride trains many times a week. Yes, they make noise, but trains approaching or leaving a station are fairly quiet, even when you stand at the platform next to them. In CS, you can place a train station and the station itself makes so much noise that citizens a hundred meters away, even in a middle-high density urban setting, get sick (!). That's not realistic. Again, that's as far as I lived from a station, in a city centre, and I didn't even hear the trains.
That's true here. Not far from where I live there is a large "condo" building group, maybe 3 or 4 in a row. On the street next to it is an elevated "light rail" station (goes fairly slow down city streets), in the middle of the road. Across that same street is a bus station, combined with a "rapid" train station, similar to a subway train. No one is getting sick.

The big blue/green building on the right is the "subway" station. This one is set "sunken just below ground" as it passes under roads like a bridge rather than a tunnel.
The thin line (same color) from it is a pedestrian bridge to the other "light" train station, which runs above "capitol ave" here. The bus pictures show the bus station, left of the subway station. Then left of this picture are high rent condos. Off image (above) there is a massive shopping mall. People enjoy living here, as it has so many transport options and features (such as a mall) all in walking distance. It's also just off an expressway (top left corner of the image is the expressway junction). Also: No noise complaints coming from that. It gives fast access to 2 freeways, one in each direction, about 1 mile away. There is also a taxi or rideshare area here.
Stations.png
 
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That's true here. Not far from where I live there is a large "condo" building group, maybe 3 or 4 in a row. On the street next to it is an elevated "light rail" station (goes fairly slow down city streets), in the middle of the road. Across that same street is a bus station, combined with a "rapid" train station, similar to a subway train. No one is getting sick.
About train noise - totally agree that light rail is very quiet. At most you’ll hear the “whoosh” of air as the train leaves. Certainly not enough noise to make your population sick. When people talk about noisy trains, I think they are probably referring to the horn blast followed by a low rumble of 1 to 2 mile long heavy freight train moving through their town. Especially if the tracks need maintenance which causes a lot of click clack sounds.

Including noise pollution around at grade railroad crossings and at rail junctions, but leaving pollution around the track segments low would be the most realistic thing because conflict points are usually where trains sound their horn.
 
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About train noise - totally agree that light rail is very quiet. At most you’ll hear the “whoosh” of air as the train leaves. Certainly not enough noise to make your population sick.
Exactly. Modern EMUs are rather quiet even when accelerating or breaking. Personally I’d much rather live close to a busy train stop than a busy street or intersection.
 
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You're right. Trains make noise. So the noise should spread along the tracks, not only at the stations ;)
I don't understand why this isn't how it works already. After all they changed it so that road traffic generated noise, not the roads themselves.
 
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I don't understand why this isn't how it works already.
As with many other ideas and systems in CSII: It feels like they ran out of time, and they had to finish something quickly rather than do what was originally planned.
Economy 2.0 seems like what should have been there in the first place, and I feel like it is what they wanted to have in the first place but couldn't get to it with same additional community feedback baked in as well.

Here is to hoping that the other systems will get similar 2.0 updates. Including pollution and noise.
 
About train noise - totally agree that light rail is very quiet. At most you’ll hear the “whoosh” of air as the train leaves. Certainly not enough noise to make your population sick. When people talk about noisy trains, I think they are probably referring to the horn blast followed by a low rumble of 1 to 2 mile long heavy freight train moving through their town. Especially if the tracks need maintenance which causes a lot of click clack sounds.

Including noise pollution around at grade railroad crossings and at rail junctions, but leaving pollution around the track segments low would be the most realistic thing because conflict points are usually where trains sound their horn.
That's correct. The USA has many "at grade" crossings, AKA "level crossing" in England (where almost all of them were removed maybe 40 years ago, due to risk of accidents). The "sunken subway" line, which is a really nice modern compromise for those who dislike going to an underground tunnel to get a train, only opened a few years ago. Before it was built, there was a crossing on the expressway, with gates lights and all. Occasionally, there were loud horns from freight trains. So: Yes, you can get noise from freight trains, with diesel engines and level crossings, but: Not from "light rail" or most forms of subway, with electric trains.
 
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It'd be amazing if we could bookmark companies as they enter town, keep track of how well their business models are meshing with what the city currently has to offer, and see possible city-funded services and their impact on their business (for example, traffic could reduce total profitability of their businesses). It would make the city feel more alive than just a collection of non-interactive companies that you can't do anything with.
 
Let's go through some more questions (and sorry to anyone I missed!)

Wages & Dividends (paid by employer)

Im not grasping how these are different things and why
Wages are an expense that companies have to pay, while dividends are paid from any potential profit.

Will there be some report on homeless people, amount, demographics etc? Didn't see any homeless in my cities yet, but there had to be some :)
This is the sort of feedback we'd love to hear. If there's any information you feel is currently lacking that would help you become a better mayor, don't hesitate to let us know. Of course, I can't make any promises, but I'm compiling a list for the design team to look at.

Sound all very good. I am looking forward to test the changes!

Question: Will it be possible that low income households gradually move from low density to higher density buildings, i.e. households changing their place to live if economic situation forces them? Or vice versa, if households get more wealthy over time?
Yes, when this patch is live low income households will look for high density homes since they are more affordable. You should also have less wealthy people in high density (assuming of course there is low density homes for sale they can move into).

these look like good changes to the game. Would this mean that all of the safeguards and guardrails that were mentioned just after release, such as teleportation of goods if they are stuck in traffic, are now gone? Would there be any changes to how the traffic simulation works?
Despawning still happens, but citizens and goods always restart their journey when that happens. As for changes to the traffic simulation, are there anything specific you would hope to see?

Hi @co_avanya

Thank you for this update. Sounds super exciting and a good direction for the future of SCII.

Now, I do have some questions/feedback and hope you find time to answer them:

  • I definitely think it's important that in the future there's, in addition to the hard on/off button, also more precise settings. So you can keep the all-or-nothing button in game, but right below maybe, grayed out, some more buttons that target the different services. As in, I might be interested to import electricity, but not the trash service etc.

  • What I currently struggle with in my city is the following: I get demand for high density, I build skyscrapers etc. Later on though, these buildings are left behind with a sad face. When hovering over it, it says the reason for leaving the building is unhappiness. The unhappiness itself is in my case often due to small apartments.
    • Now, first of all, I find it strange that every resident in a skyscraper collectively decided to leave the building. This seems a very counterintuitive mechanic. Is there something planned to handle this in the future?
    • Secondly, why do people, who move into skyscrapers, complain about small apartments? Because there's not more low density? But that raises the question, can you ever run away from this issue? It seems like this mechanic causes a ping pong between lower and higher density and you can never truly satisfy your citizens. Which is very frustrating because every now or then, one of my skyscrapers gets abandoned.
    • Thirdly, often I have the situation that my skyscrapers are left behind, in the same moment though I still have high demand for high density. This as well makes no real sense.

  • Is this a new feature? I wasn't aware, unemployed citizens receive unemployment money. Will there be a toggle for this too in the future? Not necessary a hard toggle but more something like the tax toggle?

Edit: I forgot one thing
  • Currently, I don't really see the reason to own a hospital. I have skyscrapers, mid density etc but I got 6 patients in my hospital? I feel like the chance of injury should be increased
  • And why is that my whole city is full of alerts that citizens have been waiting for a morgue transporter when at the cemetery cars are only used by 10% (I have no meaningful traffic)?
  • Prisons are not really needed either. Maybe it's because I only have 35k citizens but you'd still think there are more criminals convicted no?

Thanks for answering these questions!
The changes to household spawning and preferences should resolve the situations where wealthy people move into apartments and then complain. They may still become wealthy and look for lower densities/more spacious homes, but that will be reflected in your demand so you have a chance to respond to it.

As for unemployment, it's been a part of the economic system since release. I can't remember if we covered it in one of the dev diaries, but if we did, it was likely briefly along with all the other systems we discussed.

Why don't you just create modifiable difficulty presets so everyone can adjust how hard he want to play? You want to make it easy for newcomers but you take out all the fun for the community that is also thr result of the challenge CS1 had posed.
Standard "no promises" disclaimer, but I'd love to hear what kind of "difficulty dials" you'd find useful. Are we talking about things like higher costs/upkeep that generally affect the financial side? Or are we talking about citizens' happiness or any other aspects of the game you'd like to make easier or harder?
 
Let's go through some more questions (and sorry to anyone I missed!)


Wages are an expense that companies have to pay, while dividends are paid from any potential profit.


1718030873307.png


Households receive Dividends from their employer & wages, for being an employee?

I dont understand. Dividends are paid for investing in a share. Are all employees shareholders automatically of their workplace?
 
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