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Economy 2.0 Dev Diary #2

Welcome back to the second dev diary detailing the changes coming in the next patch. If you missed it, check out the first part here. Today we are covering a few important changes not directly related to the economy and we’ll go over what you can expect when loading up your existing cities.

Let’s start with Rent. Most likely you have run into complaints of “High Rent” in the game, so let’s talk about it. To complement the Land Value changes in patch 1.1.0f1 in March, we have tweaked how Rent works. First of all, we removed the virtual landlord so a building’s upkeep is now paid equally by all renters. Second, we changed the way rent is calculated. For those interested, the calculation looks like this:

Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier

This of course affects the “High Rent” notifications you may have encountered, but we’ve tweaked those directly as well, so they are now based on the household’s income. That means that even if they currently don’t have enough money in their balance to pay rent, they won’t complain and will instead spend less money on resource consumption. Only when their income is too low to be able to pay rent will they complain about “High Rent” and look for cheaper housing or move out of the city.

Besides rent, households and companies need to pay for the building’s upkeep, which in turn affects the level of the building. When they pay the full upkeep fee, the building condition increases by a constant amount until the building levels up and the tenants start paying towards the next level. Similarly, if they cannot pay it, the building condition decreases by the same amount until it’s in such poor condition it collapses.

BUILDING UPGRADES UNLEASHED
From zoned buildings automatically leveling up to the City Service building upgrades you choose and place manually. While this update doesn’t directly relate to the Economy 2.0, it shares the same patch and deserves a little spotlight. Gone are the days when you had to bulldoze the entire building to remove, or just move, an upgrade. Now, all upgrades can be removed by selecting the building, finding the upgrade in the Selected Info Panel, and clicking the bin icon.

Sub-buildings.png

Deactivate or delete Extensions or relocate Sub-buildings through the Selected Info Panel

For sub-buildings, there’s even more control. They can also be removed using the bulldozer, you can pick them up and move them, or turn them on and off as needed. Moving them is particularly handy now as they don’t have to be placed in connection to the main building. As long as they are within the predefined radius and have pedestrian and/or road access, they will work like before. Sub-buildings like the Elementary School Playground just need a pedestrian path connecting them to the rest of the city, while sub-buildings like the Bus Depot Extra Garage will need road access to function. We’re excited to see how you take advantage of this new freedom in your cities, so don’t hesitate to tag us on social media if you’re showing off screenshots.


EXISTING CITIES
Now you might wonder how all of this affects your existing cities, so let’s get the most obvious question out of the way first. Saves from before the economy rework still work, though we expect they will have a transition period as the simulation adapts to the changes. When it comes to modded saves, we can’t make any guarantees, but keep an eye out for updates or instructions from the modders. Mods that affect the simulation are likely to be affected by the update.

When you load up your city (and unpause) there are a few things you should keep in mind. With Government Subsidies removed and City Service upkeep increased, the cost of running your city just increased. If your city relies on ambulances, hearses, fire engines, police cars, and garbage trucks coming from Outside Connection, make sure to enable the Import City Services policy in the City Information panel, but don’t forget that your neighbors charge a fee to help you out. All this is expected to create a negative money trend, but depending on your city’s finances, your tax income might be enough to offset the new costs once the calculations catch up. If you’re struggling for money, don’t forget that you can increase taxes, reduce service budgets, or temporarily turn buildings off to save on their upkeep cost.

Demand adjusts quite quickly, so don’t be alarmed if some of your demand bars empty or fill up when you start playing. With the increase in industrial manufacturing space, your industry will be on a hiring spree that’s likely to drive up your residential demand - unless your city has workers already looking for a job. We recommend giving it some time though as companies (commercial, industrial, and office) readjust their production and employee numbers to be profitable, which we expect will overall lead to an increase in unemployment in your city.

With the new calculations for residential density demand, your citizens may also start looking for different types of housing or move around the city. Thankfully, the new calculations for rent and resource consumption should help them afford the type of housing they prefer, and we expect most (if not all) of your “High Rent” notifications will disappear after letting the simulation run for a while. If you keep seeing these or they start to come back, then make sure to check your unemployment and provide citizens with jobs so that they can pay their rent.

With time and some tweaks, your existing cities should adjust to the changes, so you can get back to realizing their full potential. And as always, don’t hesitate to ask for help if you encounter any situations you’re unsure of how to handle and report any bugs you might run into here.


WHAT’S NEXT?
Before we finish for today, we’d like to share our plans going forward. We will of course follow discussions and read feedback you share as you play with these changes. We’ve done extensive testing to get the changes as balanced as possible, but we know that some tweaking will likely still be necessary once you all start sharing your experiences.

We’ve already started work on the next major patch which we hope to have ready for you in Q3, and we want to give you a little sneak peek at what you can expect. As previously mentioned, we want to expand the service import to bring you more control. We’re also looking at what we can improve in the UI and how the game relays information to you, so you have everything you need to solve issues in the game. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Are there any issues you’ve struggled to solve in your city? Any information you have been looking for but weren’t able to find?

Last, but definitely not least, the art team has been cooking up some new free buildings for you all. We appreciate each and every one of you for sticking with us and giving us a chance to make Cities: Skylines II what it can and should be. Your patience and support mean the world to us and we hope the new service buildings and vehicles can serve as a token of our appreciation. Thank you for being a part of our community!

NewStuff.png

A sneak peek at some of the new service buildings and vehicles you can look forward to
 
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I find it so odd that citizens cannot be the owners of their own house.
I have been wondering about this too… thinking it would be more realistic. I keep thinking about the number of calculations involved in mortgage, equity, net worth… all with cims whose life-spans (in-game) last only a few months or years.
 
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Does this mean that we will finally actually see any level 4 and 5 high density residential buildings with the new patch?
 
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Will these changes include the ability to set taxes per district? I really want the ability to have say, designated industrial areas defined by type, that I can incentivize to grow where I want them too (like food industries near my farms, etc) over other industry types.
 
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But you should also remember that if the Cims buy the houses, you will have to pay a much higher amount as demolition costs. If you flatten a larger area during the renovation, it will be very expensive. It's not a bad idea in itself, but you should be able to choose the level of difficulty - rent or buy.

But it also applies to companies...
 
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Finally. A formula!
Thumbs up for that.

Now, of course the question arises a) why to have a "SpaceMultiplier" and b) which values it may have.
If it were a constant, it wouldn't make any sense to have it at all, so there have to be differences here. But we do have "ZoneType" as well, so what do "ZoneType" and "SpaceMultiplier" exactly do?

I second this! Is the SpaceMultiplier handling verticality? (e.g., the number of floors?) I think it would be clearer if we could get some examples of a few buildings. I think it's very important to get this right and make sure the value intuitively makes sense. A big problem of the simulation right now is that the players don't understand why things are happening. This leads to complaints about things being "buggy" with no further helpful feedback as it is unclear what should happen (i.e., it is hard to tell if there is a bug or if the simulation is just "not great").

I'd like abandoned buildings to have more visual distinctions as well, but preferably not have them look burnt like C:SL1
I think things like;
  1. Swapping out ground floor window textures for plywood,
  2. A very slight/subtle saturation+darkening of some textures,
  3. Construction fence props blocking off entrances,
  4. and graffiti decals
would be good ways of doing.

I think the CS1 design was made to pop out visually. While I agree that your proposal would be more realistic (and nicer looking), I am not sure how visible it would be at the "average" zoom level. However, this is definitely something they should look into.
 
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I wish there was some transparency about what else is coming with this patch, surely these things can be discussed given the time period since the last patch...

What bug fixes are going to be included?
Are there performance improvements outside of the Economy rework?
What else aside from the Economy rework has been done?

The economy rework sounds like you've rewritten a few mathematical algorithms that calculate supply/demand, and then run tests to see how it plays and retweak numbers again. This doesnt sound anything more than balancing issues, what is the technical improvements that have been done to the game, because although a Economy rework was needed because the game had no challenge and was clearly broken as mentioned by Henka in your xmas video, there surely must be more than just a rebalance of numbers that were getting in this patch? Yes, you fixed the addons to service buildings bug, and added a box to import city services.

What else is coming after our 3 month wait since the last patch?
 
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For information to add in Q3:

-Homeless measures! Show us total homes, occupied homes, unoccupied homes and the # of homeless people and people travelling from outside connections.
-Add a building condition overlay so we can see what buildings are in danger of collapse before it happens. Would be nice if there was a way to intervene.
 
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We’re also looking at what we can improve in the UI and how the game relays information to you, so you have everything you need to solve issues in the game. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Are there any issues you’ve struggled to solve in your city? Any information you have been looking for but weren’t able to find?

This I remember from my time in the game:

* Seeing the College droput rate but not seeing the details of why it was high or low. Hovering over it should tell you things like "uneducated jobs available +10%" "too far +5%" so you know why people aren't staying in college.
* Being unable to discern why cars in a jam were doing, where did they come from, or what could I do about it. I understand that showing the routes for all cars would be too much, but at the very least let me select a segment of road and then show me origins and destinations of everyone on that road, that should be good enough to let me know that I need to improve mobility between those points. I can get that info car by car but it's an absolute pain to do.
* Utilization of public transport is also confusing. The ammount of passengers per month is... not really a useful metric, since you can't compare it to anything. It should probably be per day/hour, same as the road utilization tells you, so that you can tell "hey I got X cars off the road with this bus".

These are from the top of my head, I haven't played in a while but I'm sure there's more.
 
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10 months.

It took you all 10 months to get the state of the game to *approximately* where it should have been at release.

And you placate us with a janky looking water tower and more "free buildings". No wonder you can't seem to keep players.
Sour people will always be sour. May I suggest you drink less vinegar?

I am at least slightly hopeful that this game might get back on track again and we don't get completely abandoned by devs as is so often the case lately.
 
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Looking forward to this.

Now hopefully after this patch, the next patch should improve:
1. More performance improvements
2. Graphical updates and animations
3. Alternative styles for buildings
4. Option for smaller building footprint for city services
5. Mod loading and updating
6. Fixes to map editor (climate)
7. Introduce asset editor

I know this is a big ask, but I hope you could deliver.
 
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1) Will the families / citizens now actively look for affordable housing instead of just complaining like they do now?
2) There is a lot of information what game omits and doesn't show. My biggest issue is with the unemployment data, which doesn't show the info based on education levels. One tab with Total amount of people in each education class, total amount of jobs for that education class and the difference. Now you can have 15% unemployment and lack of workers at the same time, but you got no idea which groups this involves. You can see the lack of workers from the workplace overlay but you'd have to assume which ones are the ones with high unemployment.

Also import / export data is somewhat abstract showing percentage rather than actual tons. You need to piecemeal a full picture from several places and that's not very fun.

Edit: Oh, and please stop the nonsense with building model changing with building level updates. It doesn't work like that in reality, it's not good looking either. And it reduces the amount of building models we have in our disposal. Initial building should always remain more or less the same, add some props / fine tune some small extension etc. but don't change the whole building. This way for example the beach properties would have added substantially more house models _permanently_ into your city rather than the 6 level 5 models.
1) If more affordable housing is available, they can move there. Otherwise, they'll move out of the city.
2) This is great feedback, thank you!

Can we get a future update that adds worn and torn decal textures to buildings and roads that are in bad condition. Cities skylines 1 really showed us how abandoned buildings looked actually abandoned.
We have a list of visual improvements we want to make, but we want to make sure the gameplay is in a good place before working on those. We'll have to see where we're at once this patch is live and we have had a chance to look at all the feedback.

Can't wait for this update! Will the asset editor be in the Q3 update?
We can't confirm it will be ready for that patch yet, but we're working on resolving the remaining issues as soon as possible, so you can start to create custom assets.

Checking the dev diary notes, I havent seen any mention on whether this patch will bring performance improvments.

Is it just assumed there are performance improvments coming with the patch, or does the fact that there has been no mention mean there are no performance improvments coming?
We have improvements to performance in this patch, along with some general bug fixes. All the fixes will be in the patch notes once the patch goes live.

Will you guys ever add a separate industrial zoning for manufacturing or warehouses with little to no pollution that can be placed in cities that wont cause major harm to its residents? You see this in many places like Lockhart FL and Jersey Village, TX.
Our focus right now is on improving the base game itself, so we're currently not looking at potential future content, but we're always interested in your feedback and wishes. I can't make any promises, but I can make sure this goes on our community wishlist, so we have it once we start looking at new content.

Thank you so much for a diligent and transparent update!

1) ’m wondering to what extent buildings with higher vacancy rates go abandoned or collapse even when existing residents ARE paying their rents and shares of upkeep. I’ve seen perfectly happy medium and high density buildings go abandoned and collapse for no apparent reason and hadn’t quite yet figured out the cause. I saw somewhere that this new patch will force existing buildings to become occupied before constructing new buildings of similar type. Will this solve the problem?

2) I really appreciate the explanation of how this patch will affect our cities’ economies. In short, this patch isn’t going to actually “break” current saves by making them completely inaccessible or unplayable. Although, it is apparent that we may have some significant work in our cities to make them fiscally viable.

3) I play 100% vanilla, but I’m wondering if you have pre-shared the beta with the modding community so that they can quickly release updated versions of their mods. I recall how well you coordinated the Sunset Harbor and Airport DLCs in CS1 to such an extent that our cities barely skipped a beat.

Thank you again for your sustained efforts to improve the game and your public relations. I love this genre and this game, and would be disappointed if it were discontinued because your fan base walked away completely.
1) When residents can't pay the building's full upkeep, like when only a few people live in a high density residential building or it's abandoned, the building condition deteriorates. If it keeps deteriorating for long enough, it will eventually reach the threshold for "leveling down" which is when it will collapse. As for why you had buildings become abandoned is hard to say without looking at the save. Off the top of my head, they may have found work or studied in Outside Connections and moved out, they may have been unhappy with the apartment size, or they may have moved elsewhere in the city. I'd expect you'll see less of that happening with the patch, but if you keep seeing buildings abandoned for no apparent reason, we'd love a report with a save, so we can look into it. Whether it's a bug or a question of missing information, saves are always helpful in determining how we can improve the situation.

3) Our modding beta group has early access to the patch, though of course I can't comment on whether they have had a chance to update their mods. It all depends on how many real-life obligations they have, but we always try to give them as much time with a patch as possible, so they can prepare.
 
I find it so odd that citizens cannot be the owners of their own house.
What is termed in-game as "rent" isn't just a tenant paying rent to a landlord. It's a combined abstraction of rent, a mortgage, property taxes, more basic maintenance, investments in updating things like furnishings and landscaping, everything that someone - renter or owner - would be spending to maintain living where they live. It's why rent goes up as land value goes up, because even for an owner who's paid off their mortgage, property taxes and the investment required to maintaining the home at that level of value is going to increase.
 
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Any update or recognition about the park bug? People will only attend the one park in the city with most attractiveness. This makes all other parks empty and without anyone visiting them at all.

Is this issue being actively worked on, or maybe even included in the patch?
 
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Wow! I look forward to having sub-buildings be able to be added within a radius and that they will be able to be moved, deactivated and deleted.
Will this mean I can expand my tram depot without building another tram building? I know there isn't a sub building yet for trams but that would be a nice addition.
 
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  • The ability to create priority roads much like CS1's Mass Transit DLC. This is one of a few things with the new road system that isn't intuitive enough (for me, at least) to know where a road starts and where a road ends, and how much of a priority this road should be compared to all other roads connecting to it. One aspect related to this is where the game starts and ends a road. Currently, if the road angles aren't big enough, the road will continue on, but with larger angles, the road is split into 2 different roads. Couldn't we design a main road that goes all around the city?
  • Same with CS1's Mass Transit DLC, I would like for more information about all of the vehicles heading to their destinations as part of the traffic flows infographic flowing through the road. In Mass Transit, when you click on a road, you get to see all the arrows drawn on the screen that shows all of the vehicle's intended destination going through that road. I missed that so much.
I would love that feature back to choose the length and where the road goes and a highlight of which traffic (vehicles, people, hopefully bikes soon) are planning to take that section of road. That detail was so helpful for me.
 
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Sour people will always be sour. May I suggest you drink less vinegar?

I am at least slightly hopeful that this game might get back on track again and we don't get completely abandoned by devs as is so often the case lately.

A lot of people have short term memory issues, or perhaps their new.

We still havent been delivered anything substantial since release. A failed Beach DLC, a partial MOD platform (no custom assets yet), thousands of bugs, CPU performance problems with large cities on top tier hardware, console release postponement, delayed prepurchased Ultimate Edition content, data leak on the forums brushed off as 'dont know what happened exactly', CEO calling players toxic and making comments that peeved off the community, making false pre-release statements about whats included and time frames for post-release content/features.

Paying customers have every every right to be annoyed, especially when they cant obtain a refund upon asking for one.

When the product is fixed, and paying customers are delivered what they were promised before making their purchase, then perhaps you can say 'Get over it, stop being a whinger and being negative' to that style of response.
 
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We have a list of visual improvements we want to make, but we want to make sure the gameplay is in a good place before working on those.


Our focus right now is on improving the base game itself, so we're currently not looking at potential future content, but we're always interested in your feedback and wishes. I
so good to hear!
As performance is much better now since those last patches the simulation must work in the right way. all other things can be done later
 
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Besides rent, households and companies need to pay for the building’s upkeep, which in turn affects the level of the building. When they pay the full upkeep fee, the building condition increases by a constant amount until the building levels up and the tenants start paying towards the next level. Similarly, if they cannot pay it, the building condition decreases by the same amount until it’s in such poor condition it collapses.
Will this solve high density residentials and commercials not leveling up? My city has 200k citizens. I haven't seen a single high density commercial or residential at level 5 (which are required for signature buildings)
Also will this solve mass high res abandonment? It's been reported with saves attached.
* LotSize * SpaceMultiplier
The problem I see here is that the buildings very often take the largest plot possible, resulting in long rows of identical houses, as there's rarely more than one model per plot size. Chance for smaller house built for - say, less wealthy family - on a larger available land is nonexistent. Especially problematic if building on a grid, the american way.

Also, any plans for traffic tweaks, especially the illegal moves in the foreseeable future? The things I've seen... Most of the traffic jams I see come from cars deciding to make a random u turn into already stationary traffic, blocking everything behind them and the nearest intersection or five. The values for illegal turns are way too high.
 
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