EU4 - Development Diary - 20th of August 2019

[rimworld inbox]

Strong and weak are relative. We should consider opportunity cost. There is definitely no reason to choose Reformed or Anglican in gameplay aspect, instead of Catholic and Protestant.

European great powers can use more than 2 strong modifiers from curia at all time only PI from cardinals. If you expand and convert aggressively, you can just swim in PI. In late game, player can monopolize curia controller. For countries which are not in Europe, Catholic is weaker than Reformed, but they can just switch to Protestant.

Protestant gives various modifiers from church aspects. Though they are weak, we can use 3 aspects simultaneously. Only two aspects can beat a bonus from fever of Reformed.

Tolerance of heretic religion is useless outside of Europe(if you try WC or not, you won’t concern heretics. Heathens are much more important) and no one care about more possible advisor. In addition, bonus from fever isn’t special compared to other religions. Reformed is clearly weak.

For Anglican, I don’t even want to say about that trash. Seeing Coptic first and Anglican later makes me smile. Smile of rage.

for non emperor based WCs, reformed is only 2nd to Coptic.

Source: actually has a little experience with WCs...

 

[Slimfaust]

Will gallicanism be a thing ?

 

[Ruian]

for non emperor based WCs, reformed is only 2nd to Coptic.

Source: actually has a little experience with WCs...

Coptic is decent but I don't know how you could prefer it over Hindu in a straight across comparison. Without tolerance of heathens in the NIs of the nation you are playing you are going to have to convert to keep religious unity, and that's expensive.

 

[Stepkick]

The counter reformation decision does make them temporarily the strongest converters.

Yes but it comes at a point in the game where mass conversions isn't really required and for the most part at the point in game where religious zeal is rampant and conversions isn't even possible. It goes away in the later more crucial stages of the game during which converting an entire 100 Absolutism land grab to ensure maximum unrest from tolerance of the true faith is quite important, if you don't have good levels of heretic and heathen tolerances.

 

[Stepkick]

It depends on how you play, but I have to disagree. The strongest aspect of a religion is its tolerance, especially since the conversion changes. Tengri, Hindu and Fetishist are my top 3, although I suppose you could include Animist at #1 simply because it allows you to flip to any religion inside your land by decision.

If you are Tengri you don't have to convert a single non-animist/totemist/fetishist province in the game. On top of that you can select some really nice bonuses, cheaper troops, or discipline and unrest come to mind.

Islam is pretty good simply because most of the world is Islamic and you get the -2 corruption button to save you some cash.

About the changes... seem pretty boring to me, but I don't really play much in Europe.

I disagree with you as well, while tolerance is good, very good, nothing beats conversion in terms of minimum unrest. With a good amount of tolerance of the true faith (since it is uncapped), you can easily negate separatism entirely in the end game. And while the conversion changes did get nerfed, humanist ideas also got nerfed. So it very difficult to attain +3 tolerances of heathens and heretics, unless you have some help in the form of government reforms (like Ottomans, Indian Sultanate) or National Ideas (like France, Vijayanagar).

Orthodox is strong because of the patriarchal authority allows it to have +3% missionary strength, with which it can reach the highest missionary strength possible in game by any religion. Furthermore, triggered modifiers like owning Jerusalem, Mecca, Rome, the Pentarchy gives extra missionaries, coupled with any religious national ideas is an absolute beast (max patriarchal authority also gives -3 unrest bonus).

Islam is strong similarly because of the piety mechanics, triggered modifiers and also right now ranked higher than Orthodox cause of the trade company, trade policy bug, in which you can convert the entire trade company region very quickly and for free (I converted the entire Indian North in 3 years for free).

Yes, certain religions like Hinduism is strong cause of tolerances of heathen and heretic. Hindus get an decision to tolerate religious minorities, that along with humanist ideas give Hindus, +2 tolerance of heretic, and 0 tolerance of heathen, which still isn't as good as having like +9 tolerance of true faith which is possible with Orthodox countries. Tengri is also strong like Hinduism with the Yellow Shamanism decision but both Hinduism and Tengri aren't as strong as the Orthodox or Islam.

My point is while they aren't as strong as Orthodox or Islam, they are still pretty good because they have religious tolerances that allow them to cope, Catholicism has neither.

 

[Prince Ire]

I’m underwhelmed. Its a good addition, but (and I get that the focus is on Europe) I don’t see any real improvements to non-European Catholics.

Especially since in the game's time frame, Catholicism really outpaces the other branches of Christianity in terms of spreading outside Europe.

 

[moossabi]

I know that this is kind of a dumb and pointless request, but could you post a wiki-style map of the world as it will be in 1.30 (with the new provinces nations etc)? If not that's no problem, I'm just fond of fiddling with the political maps.

Haven't posted on these forums much but I'm very optimistic about the expansion from all these dev diaries so far; can't wait to see what's in store for the HRE

 

[Ruian]

I disagree with you as well, while tolerance is good, very good, nothing beats conversion in terms of minimum unrest. With a good amount of tolerance of the true faith (since it is uncapped), you can easily negate separatism entirely in the end game. And while the conversion changes did get nerfed, humanist ideas also got nerfed. So it very difficult to attain +3 tolerances of heathens and heretics, unless you have some help in the form of government reforms (like Ottomans, Indian Sultanate) or National Ideas (like France, Vijayanagar).

Orthodox is strong because of the patriarchal authority allows it to have +3% missionary strength, with which it can reach the highest missionary strength possible in game by any religion. Furthermore, triggered modifiers like owning Jerusalem, Mecca, Rome, the Pentarchy gives extra missionaries, coupled with any religious national ideas is an absolute beast (max patriarchal authority also gives -3 unrest bonus).

Islam is strong similarly because of the piety mechanics, triggered modifiers and also right now ranked higher than Orthodox cause of the trade company, trade policy bug, in which you can convert the entire trade company region very quickly and for free (I converted the entire Indian North in 3 years for free).

Yes, certain religions like Hinduism is strong cause of tolerances of heathen and heretic. Hindus get an decision to tolerate religious minorities, that along with humanist ideas give Hindus, +2 tolerance of heretic, and 0 tolerance of heathen, which still isn't as good as having like +9 tolerance of true faith which is possible with Orthodox countries. Tengri is also strong like Hinduism with the Yellow Shamanism decision but both Hinduism and Tengri aren't as strong as the Orthodox or Islam.

My point is while they aren't as strong as Orthodox or Islam, they are still pretty good because they have religious tolerances that allow them to cope, Catholicism has neither.

I would take Orthodox or Islam over Catholicism any day as well, but +2 tolerance of heathens from Tengri and Fetishist is just superior. Very few revolts with no conversions required. It's a matter of taste so we can agree to disagree.

 

[ReconUHD]

Why not make some flavour or mechanic addition to protestant and reformed? There is a utter lack of events concerning these religions that should play an important part of the game's timeline. This should be in line with the HRE overhaul, no?

More importantly, the reformation mechanic should be revamped. The current reform-desire system leaves much to be desired. For example, they should be able to happen multiple times to simulate the cohort of sects under the umbrela groups that are "protestant" and "reformed".

 

[Amtep]

Very excited to see updates for the Papal States. Hope to see more info in the future, including mission trees.

I also hope Kingdom of God involves a new tag, and that the tag is Empire rank.

But what about the most important question: will the tag be KOG or just GOD?

 

[Mister X]

Perhaps make it so that in order to raise your government rank (from duchy to kingdom for example), you have to pay an... administrative fee to the Pope. He's the guy who does the crowning after all

 

[DominusNovus]

Especially since in the game's time frame, Catholicism really outpaces the other branches of Christianity in terms of spreading outside Europe.

Yup. I have no particular idea what would make sense for balance for them, but I think its needed. Perhaps some Bulls focused on non-Europeans.

I did have an idea awhile back I posted, where reform desire would be tracked globally and by country. As long as reform desire is fairly even between countries, it can be tapped into to pass reforms (or Bulls, I suppose). But if one country gets too far ahead of the average, it can trigger the reformation.

That doesn’t really have anything to do with the geographic question, but I wanted to mention it again.

 

[Grubnessul]

Can I sack Rome and get my grubby hands on that sweet pile of money?

 

[Malecord]

It's 8 pages and it is still not clear if those bulls are perpetual, timed or bound to the reign of the specific pope that publish them. I assume they are perpetual. If they are not I wrote a wall of text for nothing.

So it is my understanding that these bulls are intended to fix exclusively the issue with the holy roman church perks being a very poor compared to the others denominations. So they are clearly meant to not make being the curia controller stronger than now (which is already quite strong) but just give a general buff to everyone. It is also meant to send this message that if catholic rulers play "nice" together (in the catholic sense: i.e. buy indulgences, corrupt cardinals and create new Christians for the Church to tax) they will all become stronger. Which is ok, I like it a lot as a concept. It's a real incentive to spread the word into the world as it actually happened.

Yet in my opinion this mechanic as you described it idoesn't look like super interesting. For this reason: maybe that's intended, but factoring out all the other bonuses of being the curia controller, one doesn't have that big incentive in spending influence to control which bull is activated next and can just let the AI activate them in whatever random order. (with I guess the notable exception of the imperial authority bull. That one is clearly a priority for the emperor so you want to pass it as soon as you can). This is especially the case since these bulls are nothing crazy to rush.

Imho what the system you described is missing is some incentive to put effort in control it so a player really gets involved with this 'theological debate" instead of just waiting passively that a small and marginal buff is unlocked one after another. Because this is kind of boring.

Ideas to make things more interesting:
- Make the bulls more desirable, better effects, perhaps more specialized, so players have a reason to pass them asap or in specific game stages.
- Make more bulls and make some of them mutually exclusives or make so only so many of them can be active at the same time.
- Perhaps introduce bulls that can only be approved under certain conditions.

 

[swagmeister]

Yup. I have no particular idea what would make sense for balance for them, but I think its needed. Perhaps some Bulls focused on non-Europeans.

I did have an idea awhile back I posted, where reform desire would be tracked globally and by country. As long as reform desire is fairly even between countries, it can be tapped into to pass reforms (or Bulls, I suppose). But if one country gets too far ahead of the average, it can trigger the reformation.

That doesn’t really have anything to do with the geographic question, but I wanted to mention it again.

Reform desire is already global.

 

[Choorus]

It's 8 pages and it is still not clear if those bulls are perpetual, timed or bound to the reign of the specific pope that emanates them. I assume they are perpetual. If they are not I wrote a wall of text for nothing.

So it is my understanding that these bulls are intended to fix exclusively the issue with the holy roman church perks being a very poor compared to the others denominations. So they are clearly meant to not make being the curia controller stronger than now (which is already quite strong) but just give a general buff to everyone. It is also meant to send this message that if catholic rulers play "nice" together (in the catholic sense: i.e. buy indulgences, corrupt cardinals and create new Christians for the Church to tax) they will all become stronger. Which is ok, I like it a lot as a concept. It's a real incentive to spread the word into the world as it actually happened.

Yet in my opinion this mechanic as you described it idoesn't look like super interesting. For this reason: maybe that's intended, but factoring out all the other bonuses of being the curia controller, one doesn't have that big incentive in spending influence to control which bull is activated next and can just let the AI activate them in whatever random order. (with I guess the notable exception of the imperial authority bull. That one is clearly a priority for the emperor so you want to pass it as soon as you can). This is especially the case since these bulls are nothing crazy to rush.

Imho what the system you described is missing is some incentive to put effort in control it so a player really gets involved with this 'theological debate" instead of just waiting passively that a small and marginal buff is unlocked one after another. Because this is kind of boring.

Ideas to make things more interesting:
- Make the bulls more desirable, better effects, perhaps more specialized, so players have a reason to emanate them asap or in specific game stages.
- Make more bulls and make some of them mutually exclusives or make so only so many of them can be active at the same time.
- Perhaps introduce bulls that can only be emanated under certain conditions.

In M&T the Catholic church can react to the Reformation in many ways, it would be great to have that opportunity in vanilla. Should the Church champion the indigenous rights? Should it counter the reform, should it pre-emptively reform absenteeism and nepotism? Should adopt a hard line against the Ottomans, should it go back to Jerusalem? Maybe it should put the Constantinople firmly under its control? Maybe destroying the Tsardom is the right thing to do? Administrative independence in form of Act of Supremacy accepted by the papacy in a gambit to prevent the full on Protestant Reform of the Princes? Religion is one of the main themes of the first half of the game and yet playing the Papacy is devoid of all those questions and rather bland...

 

[Cancerofthehead]

It's 8 pages and it is still not clear if those bulls are perpetual, timed or bound to the reign of the specific pope that emanates them. I assume they are perpetual. If they are not I wrote a wall of text for nothing.

So it is my understanding that these bulls are intended to fix exclusively the issue with the holy roman church perks being a very poor compared to the others denominations. So they are clearly meant to not make being the curia controller stronger than now (which is already quite strong) but just give a general buff to everyone. It is also meant to send this message that if catholic rulers play "nice" together (in the catholic sense: i.e. buy indulgences, corrupt cardinals and create new Christians for the Church to tax) they will all become stronger. Which is ok, I like it a lot as a concept. It's a real incentive to spread the word into the world as it actually happened.

Yet in my opinion this mechanic as you described it idoesn't look like super interesting. For this reason: maybe that's intended, but factoring out all the other bonuses of being the curia controller, one doesn't have that big incentive in spending influence to control which bull is activated next and can just let the AI activate them in whatever random order. (with I guess the notable exception of the imperial authority bull. That one is clearly a priority for the emperor so you want to pass it as soon as you can). This is especially the case since these bulls are nothing crazy to rush.

Imho what the system you described is missing is some incentive to put effort in control it so a player really gets involved with this 'theological debate" instead of just waiting passively that a small and marginal buff is unlocked one after another. Because this is kind of boring.

Ideas to make things more interesting:
- Make the bulls more desirable, better effects, perhaps more specialized, so players have a reason to emanate them asap or in specific game stages.
- Make more bulls and make some of them mutually exclusives or make so only so many of them can be active at the same time.
- Perhaps introduce bulls that can only be emanated under certain conditions.

I had never considered that they might be permanent. I had expected the were for the life of the Pope or maybe timed.

Being permanent is far less interesting but makes them likely to be an actual buff for non-Curia controllers because you are far more likely to get useful benefits if the AI is the controller picking temporary ones.

 

[DominusNovus]

Reform desire is already global.

I know. My proposition is for it to track by country, as well.

 

[DDRJake]

Will the Kingdom of God still just be a decision with bonuses for the Papal States or will it be an actual formable tag?

While it likely won't be a tag switch, I do desire "Kingdom of God" actually being seen on the map.

Is the mechanism of choosing Papal Controller the same as before?

Curia Controler will still be chance-based from papal investment and Cardinals

How long will each Papal Bull last? Are they permanent boosts to Catholic nations, or will each bull last for a certain duration of time?

Once a Papal Bull is enacted, it will last until the death of the current Pope, which will also trigger the next Curia controller.

"Apostolicae Servitutis: 50% Cheaper Curia Powers (Levy Church Tax, Proclaim Holy War etc..)" is this means that the buffs that you can buy with papal points remain unchanged?(besides the 50% price off if someone buys this with church money)

The nation-specific actions bought with Papal Influence will still exist.

Can we now see the Papal State mission tree? If I recall correctly, it was said that we can't see it until the new curia mechanics get revealed, so now would be ok.

It'll be up to @neondt when we show off the hefty Papal Tree, but there are more mechanics to cover before then.

I couldn't find anything about whether this will be a free patch or DLC feature.

Features shown in this Dev Diary are going to be paid content in the upcoming European Expansion.

But just to be sure: the current mechanics of Catholicism remain, and these in the DD are added on top of that, right? We can still use Papal Influence to get some bonuses?

Indeed.

Will this update make vassals convert again?

We are unsatisfied with the AI's ability to convert, particularly subjects. This is a high priority for fixing in the update.

Can I sack Rome and get my grubby hands on that sweet pile of money?

Without making Rome / the Curia Controller a pinata, we do want to have some sweet sackings of the Tithe.

 

[neondt]

It'll be up to @neondt when we show off the hefty Papal Tree, but there are more mechanics to cover before then.

We'll have plenty of time to show off the glorious Papal mission tree in the future, indeed

Plenty of mechanics to show off first, not to mention the [REDACTED] over the next few weeks.