EU4 - Development Diary - 28th January 2016

[GaelicLad]

As much as I love you developing Ireland, as it is my home country and all, I was just wondering, why is Wels and Cornish not Celtic? I can accept lowlander being british, but the other two have been Celtic since the beginning of the Celtic cultures. Loving the game btw.

 

[AndrejK]

wait... what? Turkish should firstly remain in same cultural group as Azeri and Turkmen with the rest of the Fertile Crescent having a same "Fertile Crescent culture group perhaps... also Hunger strikes for Armenian Cilicia

 

[DPKdebator]

As much as I love you developing Ireland, as it is my home country and all, I was just wondering, why is Wels and Cornish not Celtic? I can accept lowlander being british, but the other two have been Celtic since the beginning of the Celtic cultures. Loving the game btw.

The reasoning is probably something along the lines of Wales and England being very close together (which kind of follows the new direction for cultures), but that doesn't mean the Welsh are Germanic.

 

[123e55]

The Principality of Transylvania actually maintained Hungarian traditional law for longer then the Hapsburg Kingdom of Hungary did. It would be better understood as a successor state to the medieval Kingdom of Hungary. It was ruled by Hungarian nobles who threw their lot in with the Ottomans over the Hapsburg's. They should be able to form the choice of either Hungary or Romania.

Maybe this would be the best way to proceed. I agree with your affirmation.

 

[Badgee]

If my memory is good, Hungarian culture was in the West Slavic culture group in a former version of the game. It would be better to put it back, rather than to put it to one group with the Romanian culture, I think that would be strategically useful too.
Also, I would have a suggestion with monarch names: some monarch hasn't got a number. For example Matthias Corvinus of Hungary is 'Mátyás Corvin/Hunyadi' (according to you get him by an event or just start the game later), and the next king with the same name will be 'Mátyás I' instead of 'Mátyás II'.

 

[Demetrios]

What is annoying, though, is to see incredibly irrelevant "countries" like Sligo get unique national ideas (or the same could be said about Theodoro getting its own unique units) whereas other actually relevant countries in Europe are stuck with the awful generic "cultural group" national ideas (and generic models for units).

Paradox, set your priorities straight. It's annoying to see this kind of double standard, to see something being more polished just by virtue of having been added later. If you are going to add unique national ideas to Sligo you need to give every single country in Europe unique national ideas.

How do you know that they aren't going to give those other nations national ideas as well in 1.16? They may or may not, but complaining about it after only one DD has been released seems a bit premature...

 

[Atridij]

I agree that peoples/cultures are influenced by others, obviously. However, that has always been the case and will continue to be so, there is no such thing as a pure-culture.
Moreover, saying that Croatian Croats only existed in Zagorje is something I take offense to and completely disagree with. Croats in Zagorje are as Croatian as those in Slavonia, Dalmatia and Bosnia. Croats lived in what is modern day Croatia & Bosnia for over a 1000 years, that is to say Croats came to the area and became the predominant people group, I am certain that even back then newly arrived Croats mixed with the local population and absorbed local traditions , Ideas as they intermingled.

Vast majority of Slavs in the Balkan are slavenized natives, which has been proven in genetics and by logic. Natives tend to retreat to less approachable highgrounds while leaving the fertile lowlands.

When it comes to Bosnia I don´t see any differences , beside religion, between Croats and Bosnian people, even haplogroup studies show that both Croats & Bosnian are the same people.

To which point what I said, that most Slavs in the region are slavenized natives, and the highest count of non-Balkanian genes are found among Bosniaks which were forced by the Ottomans to host over hundred of thousand Hungarian, Polish, Slovak, Ruthanian, Croatian refuge converts when the Ottoman holdings in Central Europe collapsed.

Moreover, although Bosnia still is a majority Croatian ethnic nation , given that Muslims are mostly converts to Islam from their Croatian Christian roots and that Orthodox Vlachs & Serbs people came to Bosnia in the 17th century due to Ottoman persecutions.

Hilarious. The concept of Croatdom was a national unknow to most Catholics in the core Bosnia region, until the Croatization (in late 19th century and finished in early 20th century) which was fought against mainly by Catholic Bosniaks which can be found in works of Fra Antun Knežević and dozens of other writers (including Muslim Bosniaks Safet beg Bešlagić). Sad to see their work has failed.

Neke naše komšije vrlo se ljute, što se dičimo i ponosimo našim starim imenom, jezikom i običajima i što pod živu glavu nećemo da prigrlimo njihovo ime za oznaku narodnosti i jezika. U napadajima na nas složne su naše komšije, koje ćemo, da se bolje razumijemo, nazvati Jovo i Ivo. No i jedan i drugi traži od nas nešto drugo, jer izmedju sebe ne mogu – o živu glavu – da se slože. Prijatelj Jovo poručuje nam, da uzmemo njegovo ime, a prijatelj Ivo veli, “jok Bošnjače, ti si moj i moraš prigrliti moje ime“. Potegni tamo, potegni amo, a sve bez našega pitanja. Od same ljubavi, a zbog svoje beskrajne svađe, prijatelji bi nas upravo raskinuli; da se nijesmo već odavna tome priučili, mi bi se morali od čuda kameniti kao kulašinsko dijete. Al‘ ovako, kako stvari stoje, zapitaćemo naše prijatelje, koji se bave perom i štampom: za što se tako svađate za nas, kad dobro znadete, da je Bošnjak od starine privikao dičiti se jezikom i zvati se imenom svojim, da se vjerno drži tradicija i uspomena svojih djedova. Slavni tarih (istorija) naše mile domovine sjeća nas onih vremena, kada se je naša domaća vlastela u svakoj prigodi jasno i otvoreno izrazila o svojoj narodnosti, nazivajući se ponosnim i junačkim imenom Bošnjak. Gledamo na mnoge dokumente domaćih spisatelja iz prošlih vjekova, u kojima se uvijek spominje naše pravo narodno ime Bošnjak, a to su oni razlozi zbog kojih se i mi, kao njihovi zahvalni i vijerni potomci zovemo slavnim imenom Bošnjak. Od toga nećemo niti smijemo otstupiti, toga ćemo se imena držati vijerno i stalno. Mi se ponosimo time, da je upravo naš jezik, a iz naše otadžbine uzet za osnovu književnog jezika naših komšija Srba i Hrvata. Glasoviti jezikoslovci Vuk Karadžić, Daničić, pa Ljudevit Gaj prenijeli su naš lijepi jezik u književnost obaju rečenih naroda, te ga prozvaše kako su oni hotjeli jedni srpskim a drugi hrvatskim, a o nama nigdje ni spomena. Mi sigurno imamo prava dičiti se, što se našim jezikom služe danas u književnosti naši prijatelji Jovo i Ivo, a to će nam bar svak priznati. Ali mi nikako ne razumijemo, zašto naziv, što su ga oni našem jeziku po svojoj volji, a bez našeg pitanja dali, sada nama po što po to hoće da nametnu, pa nam čak brane, da mi u našoj vlastitoj kući svoj jezik označujemo imenom našeg naroda. To je slično, kad bi našem djetetu neko drugi po svojoj volji ime nadio. Tako postupanje i taj zahtjev mi ne odobravamo i nijesmo nikako kail. Ali čast i poštenje obodvojici naših prijatelja, Srbu i Hrvatu. Mi njihovu narodnost ne preziremo, mi na njiha krivim okom ne gledamo, mi nikad nećemo zanijekati, da nijesmo od jugoslovenskog plemena, već baš hoćemo, da svakome jasno dokažemo, da smo mi Bošnjaci na prvom stepenu toga slavnoga roda. Ali uvijek ostajemo Bošnjaci kao što su nam bili i pradjedovi i ništa drugo. Dakle nek se dobro ogledaju po zemlji naša braća, koji toliko stoljeća u Bosni i Hercegovini stanuju i živu, a hoće da su Srbi ili Hrvati. Neka ovo lijepo prouče i promozgaju.

While no King of Bosnia ever claimed to be a Croat in any writing or decree or international correspondence, only Bosniak or Bosnian Lordship. While title official title of King Tvrtko was a mixture of the one the Nemanjići and Banhood of Bosnia, which followed kralj Srbljem, (the Nemanjič title) Bosni, Pomorju, Humskoj zemlji, Donjim Krajem, Zapadnim Stranam, Usori i Podrinj, (Kotromanić Banhood of Bosnia) while king of Croats was given and lost as a secondary title with little to no objections from latter Bosniak monarchs. Would they really be that ready to throw away their ethnic ties that easily if they were Croats or rather that they considered "real of Croats" one of their conquered lands?

While the Croats of the timeline of the game themselves considered Bosniaks as a different people with no connection to themselves, given the works of Andrija Kačić and Marko Marulić. Today a lot of myths about "forggoten and suppressed Croatom of Catholic Bosnia" are floating around trying to justify existence of Catholic Croats in Vrhbosna. The sad thing about this is that people which would later become Bosniaks of Krajina have more actual blood of original Croats which came to Balkans in 7th to 8th century than a Croat of Vrhbosna or Hum.

It can be said that Bosnia once was a Croatian land and continues to be given that Croats are one of the three constituent peoples in BiH.

Yes, today's Croats both ethnic (of Posavina and Neretvlje) and Croatized Bosniak Catholics of Central Bosnia and Hum are considered constituent peoples.

If you can read Croatian, feel free to check this site out:
http://kamenjar.com/bosna-hrvatska-zemlja/
It shows the historic connection between Bosnia with Croatia, be it their rulers , language , traditions etc.

A fine set of selective truths and newly born myths. Veoma lijepo.

 

[adijarca]

Serbs, Bosnians and Croats are basically the same people split by different religions. It's like brothers arguing over who owns the room they sleep in.

The Principality of Transylvania actually maintained Hungarian traditional law for longer then the Hapsburg Kingdom of Hungary did. It would be better understood as a successor state to the medieval Kingdom of Hungary.

Transylvania has always been too multicultural to be a true successor to anybody, but yeah it should be able to form both countries with a culture switch, so if you form Hungary culture switches to Hungarian, for Romania you get Romanian.

 

[onelife17]

What this game really needs is that your vassels can form nations when you allowe them to that would be awesome

 

[Urdnot_scott]

Whats wrong with Arabia?

Its totally ahistorical. I don't mind there not being many provinces being the lack of development in the region, but they're currently super weird - the giant round desert in the north makes no sense, the hejaz sticks way too far out into central arabia etc. Even worse than that are the countries, we have relatively accurate tribes in the americas and now in manchuria/central asia too, so whats up with Arabia? Shammar is way too big and never ever extended that far south, its just a random arab tribe the devs decided to implement without adding any other tribes, which makes no sense. Najd, Haasa and Hejaz are all just names for regions and don't refer to any country that has ever existed. Yemen wasn't truly unified, yet is in the game - historically at the time it was split between a sunni state in aden and a shia rassid state in the north. The north of the peninsula was and is inhabited by tribes, there is no need for it all to be wasteland. I could go on for a long time but its essentially just that its not up to standards pdox has set in the rest of the world. Imagine if we replaced all of the current south american kingdoms with one 'cusco' kingdom and one 'andes' kingdom. What? Or replacing all the hordes with a giant empire called 'steppe'. It wouldn't take many (if any) new provinces and a couple of tags to represent it properly, so if Ireland gets fixed, why not arabia?

 

[DanubianCossak]

Its totally ahistorical. I don't mind there not being many provinces being the lack of development in the region, but they're currently super weird - the giant round desert in the north makes no sense, the hejaz sticks way too far out into central arabia etc. Even worse than that are the countries, we have relatively accurate tribes in the americas and now in manchuria/central asia too, so whats up with Arabia? Shammar is way too big and never ever extended that far south, its just a random arab tribe the devs decided to implement without adding any other tribes, which makes no sense. Najd, Haasa and Hejaz are all just names for regions and don't refer to any country that has ever existed. Yemen wasn't truly unified, yet is in the game - historically at the time it was split between a sunni state in aden and a shia rassid state in the north. The north of the peninsula was and is inhabited by tribes, there is no need for it all to be wasteland. I could go on for a long time but its essentially just that its not up to standards pdox has set in the rest of the world. Imagine if we replaced all of the current south american kingdoms with one 'cusco' kingdom and one 'andes' kingdom. What? Or replacing all the hordes with a giant empire called 'steppe'. It wouldn't take many (if any) new provinces and a couple of tags to represent it properly, so if Ireland gets fixed, why not arabia?

Ouch i had no idea that was the case... I recently updated Arabia in my mod, but i ended up adding pretty much vanilla stuff i was missing, simply because i couldnt find much information in English.

 

[dayalu]

Could you push silistre to the danube delta or ad a povence that does.

 

[Darkath]

Its totally ahistorical. I don't mind there not being many provinces being the lack of development in the region, but they're currently super weird - the giant round desert in the north makes no sense, the hejaz sticks way too far out into central arabia etc. Even worse than that are the countries, we have relatively accurate tribes in the americas and now in manchuria/central asia too, so whats up with Arabia? Shammar is way too big and never ever extended that far south, its just a random arab tribe the devs decided to implement without adding any other tribes, which makes no sense. Najd, Haasa and Hejaz are all just names for regions and don't refer to any country that has ever existed. Yemen wasn't truly unified, yet is in the game - historically at the time it was split between a sunni state in aden and a shia rassid state in the north. The north of the peninsula was and is inhabited by tribes, there is no need for it all to be wasteland. I could go on for a long time but its essentially just that its not up to standards pdox has set in the rest of the world. Imagine if we replaced all of the current south american kingdoms with one 'cusco' kingdom and one 'andes' kingdom. What? Or replacing all the hordes with a giant empire called 'steppe'. It wouldn't take many (if any) new provinces and a couple of tags to represent it properly, so if Ireland gets fixed, why not arabia?

I'd suggest you create a thread about it and suggest how it should be fixed, as you seem to know lots about the history of the peninsula.

Remember Paradox doesn't really have a specialized in-house historian for each part of the world to help them, the map is only representative of their own partial knowledge and research about the different areas. China for instance has always been a joke despite their numerous attempts to 'fix it'.

 

[Sol717]

Its totally ahistorical. I don't mind there not being many provinces being the lack of development in the region, but they're currently super weird - the giant round desert in the north makes no sense, the hejaz sticks way too far out into central arabia etc. Even worse than that are the countries, we have relatively accurate tribes in the americas and now in manchuria/central asia too, so whats up with Arabia? Shammar is way too big and never ever extended that far south, its just a random arab tribe the devs decided to implement without adding any other tribes, which makes no sense. Najd, Haasa and Hejaz are all just names for regions and don't refer to any country that has ever existed. Yemen wasn't truly unified, yet is in the game - historically at the time it was split between a sunni state in aden and a shia rassid state in the north. The north of the peninsula was and is inhabited by tribes, there is no need for it all to be wasteland. I could go on for a long time but its essentially just that its not up to standards pdox has set in the rest of the world. Imagine if we replaced all of the current south american kingdoms with one 'cusco' kingdom and one 'andes' kingdom. What? Or replacing all the hordes with a giant empire called 'steppe'. It wouldn't take many (if any) new provinces and a couple of tags to represent it properly, so if Ireland gets fixed, why not arabia?

I'd suggest you create a thread about it and suggest how it should be fixed, as you seem to know lots about the history of the peninsula.

Remember Paradox doesn't really have a specialized in-house historian for each part of the world to help them, the map is only representative of their own partial knowledge and research about the different areas. China for instance has always been a joke despite their numerous attempts to 'fix it'.

The reason why this is the case is because there isn't really much information available online in English compared to other regions. Paradox likes to use sources such as Wikipedia and Google, and if you try to use those, the information you will find will be very vague and misleading.

 

[Grand Historian]

I can see that, It is a rather small province. Given that the Eastern parts of Europe are not nearly as detailed as Western Europe , it would take longer to make any major changes.

However, I would like to ask you about the Croatia In personal union under Hungary suggestion. Is it something that you guys would consider?
As mentioned , Croatia had its own Ban ruling in Croatian lands , maybe not in all of them.

Epirus, which actually still existed as an independent nation in 1444, should be a higher priority than Croatia - which hadn't had independence in centuries - in being added in at startdate.

 

[MihaiROU]

Yay! You've added the Carpathian culture group and made Transylvania its own culture. Many thanks to the modders that got this into the game!

It's as if there's a culture called "Soviet people", while in real life the Hungarians, Szekelys, Germans and Romanians usually lived as separate communities with specific rights and roles. Well, whatever, it's just a game, at least it's not pure Hungarian anymore. Also, if they can form Hungary or Romania I'm happy with it.

 

[DanubianCossak]

It's as if there's a culture called "Soviet people", while in real life the Hungarians, Szekelys, Germans and Romanians usually lived as separate communities with specific rights and roles. Well, whatever, it's just a game, at least it's not pure Hungarian anymore. Also, if they can form Hungary or Romania I'm happy with it.

Well putting actual Germans in the middle of Romania wont lead to anything good other than weird defections that will mess up the region.

Same way as putting Finland in same group with Hungary, as much as it may make sense when it comes to language, is just bad and will cause weirdness.

 

[Lacerion]

I really love the work you do guys! But as I am Slovakian I still wonder why in EU4 the Slovak culture is tight to Hungarian? To the best of my knowledge, Slovaks always belong to West Slavic culture gruoup (alongside with Czech and Polish). I do understand that Slovaks were over 918 years part of Kingdom of Hungary but the language, culture and traditions remained West Slavic.

 

[War_lord]

I really love the work you do guys! But as I am Slovakian I still wonder why in EU4 the Slovak culture is tight to Hungarian? To the best of my knowledge, Slovaks always belong to West Slavic culture gruoup (alongside with Czech and Polish). I do understand that Slovaks were over 918 years part of Kingdom of Hungary but the language, culture and traditions remained West Slavic.

You answered your own question, they were a loyal part of the Kingdom of Hungary for about 918 years. Culture grouping in EU4 isn't about language anymore, it's about political culture.

 

[DarkImpaler]

You answered your own question, they were a loyal part of the Kingdom of Hungary for about 918 years. Culture grouping in EU4 isn't about language anymore, it's about political culture.

To me it makes sense, going down the path og linguistic culture it will be a hell of a bottomless pit.