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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of May 2019

Hi there and welcome to another dev diary for EU4. I am Pierre, I’ve been part of the EU4 Content Design team since December, and I feel honoured to be able to give you your first peeks at the new content we are making for the big European update and expansion we have planned for the end of the year.

This is the first of several dev diaries that will focus on the map changes we have made, giving large parts of the European map a much-needed revamp. I’ll be starting with Germany (which for purely arbitrary reasons shall for today include Switzerland and Bohemia, but not Austria). As @neondt stated in an earlier dev diary, our aim was not to recreate Voltaire’s Nightmare or to populate the entire HRE map with OPMs (this would have been eminently possible) but rather to create more depth and more interesting gameplay situations within it, righting various wrongs and finding ways to better represent the various dynamics of the empire’s territories along the way.

As with previous patches, all map changes shown here will be part of the free patch. In previous map previews, we have often revealed the idea groups of the new tags, and rest assured we will be adding new ideas to replace the generic German ones. However, the work to do so still lies in the future, so in the meantime I’d just like to give a shoutout to this thread – if you want to know what we are looking for in terms of threads suggesting new idea groups, look no further.

So without further ado…

South Germany

upload_2019-5-6_13-44-8.png


The lack of primogeniture in Bavaria until the 1500s led to several splits of the Duchy in the 14th century before its reunification in 1503. At game start, Wittelsbach Bavaria is divided between Munich, Landshut and Ingolstadt, who will have to fight it out for the duchy (or hope they inherit it). However, Bavaria can console itself with the fact that, once united, it will have considerably more resources at its disposal than in 1.28, with new provinces in Innbaiern (modern Innviertel, ceded to Austria in 1779; capital: Braunau), Freising, Rosenheim and Donauwörth (which has Swabian culture and is a releasable tag). We hope for Bavaria to become a strong power within the HRE in the next patch. To make this more likely, we will be adding DHEs such as this one to the Bavarian sub-duchies:

upload_2019-5-6_13-44-46.png


Also new to Bavaria is the inclusion of Regensburg as a Free City and Passau as a Bishopric. At present, the latter is a vassal under Munich, since historically Munich’s territories more or less surrounded Passau and we do not wish the latter to be easy food for Bohemia or Austria. Finally, Salzburg (already in the Bavarian geographic area) now has Bavarian culture, which more correctly represents its situation in 1444 – it was part of the Bavarian Circle and was only annexed by Austria as late as 1805.

Moving south, the large province of Tirol has been split in several pieces, with the independent County of Bregenz (currently Austrian culture) to the west representing one of the more challenging starting positions in the HRE (they have 5 development and an heir with low legitimacy). The main province has been further split between Inntal (capital: Innsbruck) and Etschtal (capital: Meran).

Switzerland, too, has seen a makeover. The Swiss Confederacy was a growing power in the 15th century but was not yet close to controlling all of what would become Switzerland. Whilst we elected not to start with individual independent Swiss Cantons (this would simply make them easy prey for Austria, Milan, Savoy and Burgundy), we did split off the largest independent force, the Three Leagues. In the process, Graubünden was split to become Illanz and Chur, and Fribourg/Freiburg was added west of Bern.

Finally, Swabia has seen considerable changes. Firstly, Austria’s holdings in Swabia (or “Further Austria” are better represented, with Breisgau now being ruled by Austria, as it was in history. Baden has been compensated with the addition of Durlach (which would later become Karlsruhe) to its north. Wurttemberg, which was the largest territorial state in Swabia but somehow is an OPM with 6 development in EU4, now has a new province in the form of Urach (capital: Reutlingen) and a substantial buff in terms of development. Additionally, Ravensburg has been swapped for the Free City of Konstanz, Alsace is now the Bishopric of Strasbourg, the new tag of Mulhouse has been added to represent the Decapolis in southern Alsace, and Ulm is no longer wildly mislocated.

To add a bit more interest to the area, states of Swabian culture will now be able to form Swabia.

Central Germany and Bohemia

upload_2019-5-6_13-45-34.png


Saxony has been given several new provinces but has also been split in two. Like Bavaria, Saxony did not have primogeniture; unlike Bavaria, Saxony never fully resolved this issue. As a result, in the 15th century, it was split several times, with the end result being the Treaty of Leipzig in 1485, where Saxony was split between the two brothers Ernest and Albert on lines similar to those displayed on the map above, except that both continued calling themselves Saxony and Ernest (Thuringia) gained Wittenberg and the Electorate. Thuringia/Ernestine Saxony later lost the Electorate to (Albertine) Saxony and split into many, many pieces. This all lies in the future in 1444 (via several planned DHEs), so the current division is based on that in 1445 between the brothers Friedrich and Wilhelm. Thuringia starts under PU by Saxony, but there will be several events which will make it a difficult subject to keep quiet for Saxony. New provinces are Zwickau in Saxony and three in Thuringia (previously one province with low development), which is now much better represented by Erfurt (Mainz has a core on this province to represent certain historical complexities), Weimar and Coburg (Franconian culture).

Franconia has seen a few more provinces and tags added. Most importantly, Franconia itself is now a formable tag if you manage to unite the Franconian lands. This is however easier said than done as Franconia now includes two Free Cities and lands owned by strong neighbours (i.e. Coburg by Thuringia). Würzburg, the titular holders of the duchy, remain the strongest power, with a new province in Fulda (Rhenish i.e. Hessian culture) and vassal in Bamberg. Their main rivals, Ansbach, now have Bayreuth as their junior partners in PU. They are now also bordered on the west by Rothenburg, another new Free City. Finally, the large province of Mainz has been split and the new Franconian culture province of Aschaffenburg has been added.

Moving West, @Ofaloaf did some pyrotechnics to the lower Rhineland map to make space to squeeze in Jülich (owned by Berg). The Palatinate has a new province in Zweibrücken, and although Hessen has no new provinces, its provinces have been renamed to Oberhessen and Niederhessen, with Niederhessen (Kassel) now the capital and more affluent province.

Finally, Bohemia, like other regions, has gained some new provinces. Lusatia has been split in three (with Oberlausitz split between Bautzen and Görlitz). This has allowed us to make Lusatia an area and releasable tag, with the provinces now having Sorbian culture. Silesia, as you can see, has been split in two between Glogau and Opole. Silesia the tag still exists and can be formed by a Silesian country that owns all of Silesia and is not a subject. Bohemia and Moravia have seen three more provinces added, with space being made for Jindrichuv Hradec, Pardubice and Ostrava. Although this is quite a few new provinces, we split the development of existing provinces to make room for them, so Bohemian starting development is not noticeably higher; we will of course be paying attention to the balance side of things to avoid Bohemia becoming the Ottomans of Europe.

Northern Germany

upload_2019-5-6_13-46-21.png


We restrained ourselves from adding too many provinces to Brandenburg, mainly because this was not a very densely inhabited area and in 1444 few would have predicted that it would later rise to power. However, they did gain a new province in Brandenburg (the city) and are stronger than most of their neighbours, so if they can secure the alliances needed to keep the likes of Bohemia away, they are still well-placed to expand – especially since the sale of Neumark will now also grant them Dramburg.

Pomerania had a bit of a situation with their lack of primogeniture too (I seem to be repeating myself here). In fact, they split many, many times and were united much more seldom than they were divided. We went for a fairly conservative split and made them into Wolgast in the west and Stettin in the east, with new provinces in Wolgast and Rügen. A united Pomerania will of course be able to form Pomerania. Also, Rügen is a releasable tag that, in homage to Klaus Störtebecker and the hotbed of piracy that was the Baltic, will have the opportunity of going pirate if you own Golden Century.

The smaller states to the west of Brandenburg have each gained provinces, with Mecklenburg now correctly owning Stargard, Lüneburg’s significance better represented by the addition of Celle, and Magdeburg now owning the bishop’s summer residence of Halle. Braunschweig (previously one of the largest provinces of the HRE) has had the city of Göttingen split off it to the south (still owned by the Brunswick tag though) and is bordered to the east by the new Free City of Goslar, and the tag Verden now also owns a province called Verden as well as Stade.

Further west, Cologne too has an extra province in Paderborn (which is a releasable tag) and Berg is our new bordergore galore tag, owning Bielefeld as well as Berg and Jülich. Last but not least, Dortmund has also been added as a Free City.

Another change that we made in the north is in the cultures. There have been many calls for a “Lower Saxon” culture, and we have heeded these calls by splitting the Westphalian culture. Conveniently, this allows us to make the Kingdom of Hannover into the formable for the Lower Saxons and Westphalia into that for the Westphalians and Rhenish peoples.

upload_2019-5-6_14-54-18.png


As a final note, I’d add that our focus on the Holy Roman Empire gives us a good opportunity to add flavour events for the tags populating it. I’ve been loving reading through the suggestions in threads such as this one. Please keep them coming, and if there is any interesting historical event you would like to see in the game, feel free to ping me (I can also read German and French, so you can send me links in those languages too).

That’s it for now. Next week, I’ll be presenting a few of the German mission trees we have prepared so far.
 
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Westphalian is a distinct western branch of the low Saxon dialect continuum, so it does make sense.

Westphalia as a client state was very anachronistic, but the old stemduchy of Saxony already had this split.

Westphalian is the culture of Saxon Netherlands, Münster, Dortmund and a few other places around there as shown here.

View attachment 479114

View attachment 479115
That also considers Eastphalian as a separate dialect. and Hollsteinish. It divides Rheinish in 4 parts. It has quite a lot more granularity than Eu4 does. And also if you want to know where Westphalen belongs look at the Banner of Westphalen, a white horse on red, where have I ever seen that before, oh wait it is the banner of Hannover and the Banner of Neidersachsen.
80px-Wappen_des_Landschaftsverbandes_Westfalen-Lippe.svg.png
80px-Coat_of_arms_of_Lower_Saxony.svg.png

And the Westphalian circle is just a thing because the burgundian circle is, all of the sudden you have a whole bunch of rhenish land split of from the much closer dutch relatives that need to go somewhere and they ended up getting bundled up with the westernmost saxons.
Even today Westphalen and Northrhine are nothing alike. Depsite haivng shared a bundesland for more than half a century. It's telling how the landscape shift when you go from one to the other. As a friend who's from there put it "As you go from Ruhr to Rural".
Also that circle map has a lot more of the Saxon area as Niedersachsiche Kreis, as well as Mecklenburg.
 
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From what I am reading I am concerned that Bohemia will become a power house since they are becoming even more powerful than before (and in most of my games they storm through northern Germany and Hungary as well as sometimes storm right into Poland) and Austria sounds like they are going to get a major demotion which will surely make it easy for Bohemia to expand since they won’t have a comparable Austria to pose a threat and Austria will no longer be able to help Brandenburg (which often buddies up with Poland thereby preventing any chance of Prussia being formed) which is often one of the first victims of Bohemian aggression (again preventing Prussia which I have NEVER seen formed in ANY of my playthroughs by the A.I.). In all with the changes seeming to occur it looks like Bohemia will inevitably become the German powerhouse of the HRE, Austria will almost never get the chance to become the great empire it once was, and Prussia will be impossible for the A.I. to form as well as make it more difficult to form Prussia for the player since Austria being an ally will no longer be the help against Bohemia that is is now.
 
From what I am reading I am concerned that Bohemia will become a power house since they are becoming even more powerful than before (and in most of my games they storm through northern Germany and Hungary as well as sometimes storm right into Poland) and Austria sounds like they are going to get a major demotion which will surely make it easy for Bohemia to expand since they won’t have a comparable Austria to pose a threat and Austria will no longer be able to help Brandenburg (which often buddies up with Poland thereby preventing any chance of Prussia being formed) which is often one of the first victims of Bohemian aggression (again preventing Prussia which I have NEVER seen formed in ANY of my playthroughs by the A.I.). In all with the changes seeming to occur it looks like Bohemia will inevitably become the German powerhouse of the HRE, Austria will almost never get the chance to become the great empire it once was, and Prussia will be impossible for the A.I. to form as well as make it more difficult to form Prussia for the player since Austria being an ally will no longer be the help against Bohemia that is is now.
The problem is Bohemia doesn't get the internal problems they did have represented well enough, not that Austria and Brandenburg does.
 
[QUOTE = "RommelTheDesertFox, příspěvek: 25441682, člen: 1283628"] Z toho, co čtu, se obávám, že se Čechy stanou mocenským domem, protože se stávají ještě silnějšími než dříve (a ve většině mých her bouří přes sever) Německo a Maďarsko, stejně jako někdy bouřka přímo do Polska) a Rakousko znějí, že se jim podaří dosáhnout významného snížení, což jistě usnadní Česku rozložit se, protože nebude mít srovnatelné Rakousko, které by představovalo hrozbu a Rakousko bude už není schopen pomoci Braniborsku (který často navštěvuje Polsko, čímž se zabrání jakémukoli riziku vzniku Pruska), což je často jedna z prvních obětí české agrese (opět zabraňující Prusku, které jsem nikdy neviděl tvořit v JAKÉKOLI z mých her. AI).Ve všech se zdá, že změny se zdají být, že se Čechy nevyhnutelně stanou německou mocenskou jednotkou HRE, Rakousko téměř nikdy nedostane šanci stát se velkou říší, kterou kdysi bylo, a Prusko nebude možné pro AI vytvořit. jak dělat to více obtížné tvořit Prusko pro hráče od té doby, co Rakousko je spojenec už ne být pomoc proti Bohemia to je je nyní. [/ QUOTE] \ t

Čechy vždy byly mocenskou velmocí v německu.
 
And what we should get a lesser game just so world conquest stays a viable game goal?

I agree with that statement. I disagree however with the statement hidden within it "The game cannot be good if WC is allowed".
So, hurray for game improvements. Having WC accessible to just about everyone shouldn't deter having game improvements, I agree. Having straight up downgrades (corruption? religious changes? endgame tags?) to prevent edge cases is just not the way to go.
 
I agree with that statement. I disagree however with the statement hidden within it "The game cannot be good if WC is allowed".
So, hurray for game improvements. Having WC accessible to just about everyone shouldn't deter having game improvements, I agree. Having straight up downgrades (corruption? religious changes? endgame tags?) to prevent edge cases is just not the way to go.
I really don't care if WC is allowed, but I want all the parameters of history represented and that will include the ones which meant that a world conquest was impossible. I don't want them because they make a WC impossible I want them because I want the game to represent all of the period. I am however perfectly willing t throw the viability of WC under the buss to get them.
 
That also considers Eastphalian as a separate dialect. and Hollsteinish. It divides Rheinish in 4 parts. It has quite a lot more granularity than Eu4 does. And also if you want to know where Westphalen belongs look at the Banner of Westphalen, a white horse on red, where have I ever seen that before, oh wait it is the banner of Hannover and the Banner of Neidersachsen.
80px-Wappen_des_Landschaftsverbandes_Westfalen-Lippe.svg.png
80px-Coat_of_arms_of_Lower_Saxony.svg.png

And the Westphalian circle is just a thing because the burgundian circle is, all of the sudden you have a whole bunch of rhenish land split of from the much closer dutch relatives that need to go somewhere and they ended up getting bundled up with the westernmost saxons.
Even today Westphalen and Northrhine are nothing alike. Depsite haivng shared a bundesland for more than half a century. It's telling how the landscape shift when you go from one to the other. As a friend who's from there put it "As you go from Ruhr to Rural".
Also that circle map has a lot more of the Saxon area as Niedersachsiche Kreis, as well as Mecklenburg.

The white horse coat of arms is from the old stemduchy of Saxony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Saxony

It itself being split between usually an eastern and western split.

Hence why Münster, Dortmund and the lower ems area became part of the state of North rhine Westphalen as they had a quite close connection.

Westphalian as opposed to Hannoverian is the discussion here because the low Saxon clearly shows the Hannoverian cultural area being tied to the imperial kreis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Rhenish–Westphalian_Circle

Well prior to the 80yw is there really a difference between rhenish and dutch?

Actually yes, a fundamental one in the sense that dutch is low Franconian and does not have a high German consonant shift versus rhenish which in linguistic standards would be upper rhine dialects of Central frankish and Moselle frankish possibly even the pfalzian dialect or hessian.
 
There have been many calls for a “Lower Saxon” culture, and we have heeded these calls by splitting the Westphalian culture. Conveniently, this allows us to make the Kingdom of Hannover into the formable for the Lower Saxons

While I am super excited for a new Lower Saxon culture (as a Lower Saxon myself), I'm curious about Hannover being the formable Nation for them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe Hannover didn't even own half of the lands represented here as Lower Saxon. How does one form Hannover exactly? Own Hannover (the Province) and 3-4 Provinces in the South, which upon forming gives you permanent claims on all other Lower Saxon lands?

Just curious, really. I don't remember the King of Hannover ruling over Hamburg, for example o_O
 
The white horse coat of arms is from the old stemduchy of Saxony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Saxony

It itself being split between usually an eastern and western split.
Yes I am well aware. But Saxony wasn't split apart due to inside cultural pressure it was split apart by the emperors for political reasons. Because ti was too big to united and to much a thorn in their side.

Hence why Münster, Dortmund and the lower ems area became part of the state of North rhine Westphalen as they had a quite close connection.
How did you go from Westphalen is part of the old stemduchy (and before that Kingdom) of saxony to it being linked to the northern part of the frankish homeland in the rhine region?
Westphalian as opposed to Hannoverian is the discussion here because the low Saxon clearly shows the Hannoverian cultural area being tied to the imperial kreis.
Except it is not hannoverian, because hollstein sure was never hannoverian, no it is low saxon and westphalian is a subset of low saxon. And no the kreises got nothing to do with culture, they are poltiical divisions and the reason westphalen doesn't go with the rest of saxony is for the same reason the stem duchy was broken apart, to divide them because they had previously been problematic because they had been such a big united cultural block inside the empire. When given the chance to decide their own icon these regions both chose the white horse on red of the old stemduchy. Showing they are no interested in being apart they feel culturally the same.
Actually yes, a fundamental one in the sense that dutch is low Franconian and does not have a high German consonant shift versus rhenish which in linguistic standards would be upper rhine dialects of Central frankish and Moselle frankish possibly even the pfalzian dialect or hessian.
They divirge over the course of this period but in 1444 I would argue that they are very similiar. They are essentially highland and lowland frankish. Now I am not arguing that they should be the same, but it is difficult to draw a hard line between them just like it is between low saxon and saxon.
 
I am a bit confused about Westphalian and Low Saxon being two different cultures. It was my understanding, when I was researching for my mod, that Westphalian was a subset of Low Saxon. I wanted to see Westphalian culture renamed to Low Saxon, not have Low Saxon be split off and represent Eastphalian and Northern Low Saxon culture separately.
 
Very nice DD, makes me excited for what is to come. The HRE was a thrilling place to play in my Hesse and Austria runs, nice to see it get even more attention!
 
I am a bit confused about Westphalian and Low Saxon being two different cultures. It was my understanding, when I was researching for my mod, that Westphalian was a subset of Low Saxon. I wanted to see Westphalian culture renamed to Low Saxon, not have Low Saxon be split off and represent Eastphalian and Northern Low Saxon culture separately.
(I'm writing this as a Lippean history student living in Münster.)

This is complicated. While Westphalia indeed was a part of Saxony (= Lower Saxon culture), the term lasted way longer through history than Angria and Eastphalia, which caused a shift from "Lower Saxon" being a hypernym for all Lower Saxons to the common modern meaning of "Lower Saxons except Westphalians and S-Hians", where the new "Westphalians" usually don't cover the same regions as the sub-stem; identity and culture also were heavily influenced by the reformation and political borders. And it gets even more complicated: East Westphalians (which includes Bielefeld and Minden; this region is often called "OWL" - Ostwestfalen-Lippe - to group it together with Lippe, which is not part of it) are only called East "Westphalians", partially because of the old Prussian province of "Westphalia" that grouped them together, but they are not in substance more similar to Münsterians than to Hannoverians; actually at the very least as for Lippeans, they are definitely closer to Lower Saxons than to Westphalians.

It is reasonable that some German cultures are omitted and that similar cultures take their place if they're to small. EU4 cannot depict all German cultures. Considering e.g. Polish being one single culture (two if you count Silesian) and CK2 having practically just one German culture, I'm actually amazed that they're trying to do so at least to some degree.

That being said, "Westphalian" / "Lower Saxon" is not perfect, but with it covering so many provinces and it having two formable tags, Westphalia and Hannover, it makes sense to split them, and it is also acceptable to make East Westphalia Westphalian.
 
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Speaking of Lower Saxon, and noticing that the Netherlands will probably get some updates, not only being a Frisian culture (a fine addition if I may say so), but for me it raises the question of culture in the Lowlands area.

I will generally be referring to this map, and altough it is a modern language map, it represents cultural borders decently enough with the exception of Groningen being a lower German area, but it seems that it will be correctly Frisian in 1444
800px-Continental_West_Germanic_languages.png

As shown in the map, the general area east of the river IJssel speaks a dialect which is nominally a Lower Saxon dialect. In the era of the Republic, the lands east of the IJssel were commonly seen as German over in Holland. Over the last few decades, the dialect has seen a slow decline, along with pretty much every other dialect in the country. Yet regional identities remain strong.

What is my point with this? Well, maybe the cultural borders in the lowlands should be reworked. In 1444, the lands making up the County of Zutphen and Oversticht shouldn't have the same culture as Holland, a culture which is meant to represent the modern idea of what it means to be "Dutch". The common farmer/townsperson would have more in common with a man in Bentheim or even Münster or maybe Bremen for that matter. Not to forget that these are land which were only brought into the "Netherlands" relatively late. The last of the provinces, the Duchy of Gelre, was only added to the Habsburg Netherlands in 1543. And the Lordship of Borculo was only brought into the republic in 1616 when Maurits conquered the city (a title still held by the Dutch king btw). And half of the time, the lands independent from "western" influence. Gelre spent half of the time in personal unions with Gullik, Berg and Kleef, and since 1227 Oversticht enjoyed a large amount of autonomy from Utrecht. The city of Groningen actually became a rather large player in Frisian afairs in the timeframe of the game. My general point here is that the area which I'm talking about was politically distinct enough from "the rest of the country" (in which way you can speak of that country in 1444) and that it would have more in common with what lies east.

What I would suggest is that you would split off the province of Zutphen from Gelre (and possibly give it a new tag which would be a vasal/pu of Gelre) and make it Westphalian culture, since making all of Gelre Westphalian would mean making the Veluwe and Betuwe that culture as well, along with making the province of Overijssel Westphalian.
 
The problem is Bohemia doesn't get the internal problems they did have represented well enough, not that Austria and Brandenburg does.
You see you perfectly illustrated the problems with the HRE nations and since they are not properly addressing Bohemia that will cause serious power problems in the HRE as well as make it easier for the Ottomans to take over Hungary and then dig into the HRE which is a very serious problem (most of my playthroughs end up with a very powerful Ottoman Empire that has either went north extremely fast or south and north extremely fast and most games end with the Ottomans either preventing Russia altogether or pummeling them before they even stand a chance and might I add that they are most of the time the ONLY nation that could stand a good chance against them if they get the chance, but every time the Ottomans win against Russia they take an insurmountable amount of land from them) since the Ottomans already don’t have much to worry about since they almost never get coalitions (maybe that is just me).
 
[QUOTE = "RommelTheDesertFox, příspěvek: 25441682, člen: 1283628"] Z toho, co čtu, se obávám, že se Čechy stanou mocenským domem, protože se stávají ještě silnějšími než dříve (a ve většině mých her bouří přes sever) Německo a Maďarsko, stejně jako někdy bouřka přímo do Polska) a Rakousko znějí, že se jim podaří dosáhnout významného snížení, což jistě usnadní Česku rozložit se, protože nebude mít srovnatelné Rakousko, které by představovalo hrozbu a Rakousko bude už není schopen pomoci Braniborsku (který často navštěvuje Polsko, čímž se zabrání jakémukoli riziku vzniku Pruska), což je často jedna z prvních obětí české agrese (opět zabraňující Prusku, které jsem nikdy neviděl tvořit v JAKÉKOLI z mých her. AI).Ve všech se zdá, že změny se zdají být, že se Čechy nevyhnutelně stanou německou mocenskou jednotkou HRE, Rakousko téměř nikdy nedostane šanci stát se velkou říší, kterou kdysi bylo, a Prusko nebude možné pro AI vytvořit. jak dělat to více obtížné tvořit Prusko pro hráče od té doby, co Rakousko je spojenec už ne být pomoc proti Bohemia to je je nyní. [/ QUOTE] \ t

Čechy vždy byly mocenskou velmocí v německu.
Why are you speaking Czech to someone who does not?
 
(I'm writing this as a Lippean history student living in Münster.)

This is complicated. While Westphalia indeed was a part of Saxony (= Lower Saxon culture), the term lasted way longer through history than Angria and Eastphalia, which caused a shift from "Lower Saxon" being a hypernym for all Lower Saxons to the common modern meaning of "Lower Saxons except Westphalians and S-Hians", where the new "Westphalians" usually don't cover the same regions as the sub-stem; identity and culture also were heavily influenced by the reformation and political borders. And it gets even more complicated: East Westphalians (which includes Bielefeld and Minden; this region is often called "OWL" - Ostwestfalen-Lippe - to group it together with Lippe, which is not part of it) are only called East "Westphalians", partially because of the old Prussian province of "Westphalia" that grouped them together, but they are not in substance more similar to Münsterians than to Hannoverians; actually at the very least as for Lippeans, they are definitely closer to Lower Saxons than to Westphalians.

It is reasonable that some German cultures are omitted and that similar cultures take their place if they're to small. EU4 cannot depict all German cultures. Considering e.g. Polish being one single culture (two if you count Silesian) and CK2 having practically just one German culture, I'm actually amazed that they're trying to do so at least to some degree.

That being said, "Westphalian" / "Lower Saxon" is not perfect, but with it covering so many provinces and it having two formable tags, Westphalia and Hannover, it makes sense to split them, and it is also acceptable to make East Westphalia Westphalian.

Interesting, I was not aware of this. What exactly do you mean by S-Hian? Does it make sense that Westphalian culture reaches the coast?
 
You see you perfectly illustrated the problems with the HRE nations and since they are not properly addressing Bohemia that will cause serious power problems in the HRE as well as make it easier for the Ottomans to take over Hungary and then dig into the HRE which is a very serious problem (most of my playthroughs end up with a very powerful Ottoman Empire that has either went north extremely fast or south and north extremely fast and most games end with the Ottomans either preventing Russia altogether or pummeling them before they even stand a chance and might I add that they are most of the time the ONLY nation that could stand a good chance against them if they get the chance, but every time the Ottomans win against Russia they take an insurmountable amount of land from them) since the Ottomans already don’t have much to worry about since they almost never get coalitions (maybe that is just me).
Interesting seeing how in my recent games the ottomans have failed utterly. Then again I have a mod that rebalances the historical rivalries and friendships in the area so that may be why.
Interesting, I was not aware of this. What exactly do you mean by S-Hian? Does it make sense that Westphalian culture reaches the coast?
I'm guessing Schleswig-Holsteinian, and no it does not, The coast is north low saxon or holsteinian, and quite frankly I disagree with him on there being cause for a Westphalian culture, it seems he allows the westphalian tag to justify the culture and that makes no sense since the only state of westphalia before napoleon was a miniscule duchy that held no prestige at all, which no one would have wanted to form.
The concept of westphalen is totally born out of trying to keep the low saxons apart, them getting separatism against one another makes no sense whatsoever.

And from a game play perspective it makes even less sense, even unite low saxon would be a small culture with relatively poor provinces. It seems the only reason they keep it around is because they have a thing for the tag westphalen because it was a thing in earlier versions of Europa Universalis. It's a meme like square Memel or Ulm, or for that matter Russia's endless numbers or Prussian space marines. They really need to stop letting memes make design decisions for them.
 
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Interesting, I was not aware of this. What exactly do you mean by S-Hian? Does it make sense that Westphalian culture reaches the coast?
S-H = Schleswig-Holstein.
These coasts were once inhabited by Frisians and got Germanized over the time. I know no definition of Westphalia that reachs to the sea. If this was Voltaire's nightmare and if I was asked to add like 30 German sub cultures, I'd definitely give it its own one. Maybe, the content creators decided that it's better added to Westphalian to balance the amount of Westphalian vs Lower Saxon provinces since it doesn't match any of them 1:1, but It is rather comparable to other Germans on the North Sea coast that are here ascribed to the Lower Saxon culture than to Osnabrück, Münster etc... Anyhow, if the province having Westphalian culture means that it is required to form the tag, I'd say it must be a mistake.
 
S-H = Schleswig-Holstein.
These coasts were once inhabited by Frisians and got Germanized over the time. I know no definition of Westphalia that reachs to the sea. If this was Voltaire's nightmare and if I was asked to add like 30 German sub cultures, I'd definitely give it its own one. Maybe, the content creators decided that it's better added to Westphalian to balance the amount of Westphalian vs Lower Saxon provinces since it doesn't match any of them 1:1, but It is rather comparable to other Germans on the North Sea coast that are here ascribed to the Lower Saxon culture than to Osnabrück, Münster etc... Anyhow, if the province having Westphalian culture means that it is required to form the tag, I'd say it must be a mistake.
Probably simply because there are only 9 provinces in the Westphalian culture as is. Then again there are only 13 provinces in the Lower Saxon culture. If I'm not mistaken making them by far the smallest cultures in the German group.
 
Yes I am well aware. But Saxony wasn't split apart due to inside cultural pressure it was split apart by the emperors for political reasons. Because ti was too big to united and to much a thorn in their side.

How did you go from Westphalen is part of the old stemduchy (and before that Kingdom) of saxony to it being linked to the northern part of the frankish homeland in the rhine region?

Fair point.

They divirge over the course of this period but in 1444 I would argue that they are very similiar. They are essentially highland and lowland frankish. Now I am not arguing that they should be the same, but it is difficult to draw a hard line between them just like it is between low saxon and saxon.

Actually it's rather easy to form a line and low frankish and rhine frankish diverged a long time ago not even in ck2 period or eu4 period.

As shown by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Dutch

Further more the division was already possibly created by having the Salian Franks and Ripuarian Franks as two seperate groups as early as 400 CE

Later on it seems that ripuarian/rhine frankish had the high German consonant shift in around 1000 CE

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift

Also, the dutch in this regard are the dutch people as in the low frankish Germanic peoples living in the low Lands and used to be part of the lower Lotharingian realm.

These would later be influenced mostly by the Flemish and Brabantian dialects and only around 1400 would Hollandic start to become more widespread having such defining features such as Jij VS Gij as it was influenced more by the Frisian languages.