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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of May 2019

Hi there and welcome to another dev diary for EU4. I am Pierre, I’ve been part of the EU4 Content Design team since December, and I feel honoured to be able to give you your first peeks at the new content we are making for the big European update and expansion we have planned for the end of the year.

This is the first of several dev diaries that will focus on the map changes we have made, giving large parts of the European map a much-needed revamp. I’ll be starting with Germany (which for purely arbitrary reasons shall for today include Switzerland and Bohemia, but not Austria). As @neondt stated in an earlier dev diary, our aim was not to recreate Voltaire’s Nightmare or to populate the entire HRE map with OPMs (this would have been eminently possible) but rather to create more depth and more interesting gameplay situations within it, righting various wrongs and finding ways to better represent the various dynamics of the empire’s territories along the way.

As with previous patches, all map changes shown here will be part of the free patch. In previous map previews, we have often revealed the idea groups of the new tags, and rest assured we will be adding new ideas to replace the generic German ones. However, the work to do so still lies in the future, so in the meantime I’d just like to give a shoutout to this thread – if you want to know what we are looking for in terms of threads suggesting new idea groups, look no further.

So without further ado…

South Germany

upload_2019-5-6_13-44-8.png


The lack of primogeniture in Bavaria until the 1500s led to several splits of the Duchy in the 14th century before its reunification in 1503. At game start, Wittelsbach Bavaria is divided between Munich, Landshut and Ingolstadt, who will have to fight it out for the duchy (or hope they inherit it). However, Bavaria can console itself with the fact that, once united, it will have considerably more resources at its disposal than in 1.28, with new provinces in Innbaiern (modern Innviertel, ceded to Austria in 1779; capital: Braunau), Freising, Rosenheim and Donauwörth (which has Swabian culture and is a releasable tag). We hope for Bavaria to become a strong power within the HRE in the next patch. To make this more likely, we will be adding DHEs such as this one to the Bavarian sub-duchies:

upload_2019-5-6_13-44-46.png


Also new to Bavaria is the inclusion of Regensburg as a Free City and Passau as a Bishopric. At present, the latter is a vassal under Munich, since historically Munich’s territories more or less surrounded Passau and we do not wish the latter to be easy food for Bohemia or Austria. Finally, Salzburg (already in the Bavarian geographic area) now has Bavarian culture, which more correctly represents its situation in 1444 – it was part of the Bavarian Circle and was only annexed by Austria as late as 1805.

Moving south, the large province of Tirol has been split in several pieces, with the independent County of Bregenz (currently Austrian culture) to the west representing one of the more challenging starting positions in the HRE (they have 5 development and an heir with low legitimacy). The main province has been further split between Inntal (capital: Innsbruck) and Etschtal (capital: Meran).

Switzerland, too, has seen a makeover. The Swiss Confederacy was a growing power in the 15th century but was not yet close to controlling all of what would become Switzerland. Whilst we elected not to start with individual independent Swiss Cantons (this would simply make them easy prey for Austria, Milan, Savoy and Burgundy), we did split off the largest independent force, the Three Leagues. In the process, Graubünden was split to become Illanz and Chur, and Fribourg/Freiburg was added west of Bern.

Finally, Swabia has seen considerable changes. Firstly, Austria’s holdings in Swabia (or “Further Austria” are better represented, with Breisgau now being ruled by Austria, as it was in history. Baden has been compensated with the addition of Durlach (which would later become Karlsruhe) to its north. Wurttemberg, which was the largest territorial state in Swabia but somehow is an OPM with 6 development in EU4, now has a new province in the form of Urach (capital: Reutlingen) and a substantial buff in terms of development. Additionally, Ravensburg has been swapped for the Free City of Konstanz, Alsace is now the Bishopric of Strasbourg, the new tag of Mulhouse has been added to represent the Decapolis in southern Alsace, and Ulm is no longer wildly mislocated.

To add a bit more interest to the area, states of Swabian culture will now be able to form Swabia.

Central Germany and Bohemia

upload_2019-5-6_13-45-34.png


Saxony has been given several new provinces but has also been split in two. Like Bavaria, Saxony did not have primogeniture; unlike Bavaria, Saxony never fully resolved this issue. As a result, in the 15th century, it was split several times, with the end result being the Treaty of Leipzig in 1485, where Saxony was split between the two brothers Ernest and Albert on lines similar to those displayed on the map above, except that both continued calling themselves Saxony and Ernest (Thuringia) gained Wittenberg and the Electorate. Thuringia/Ernestine Saxony later lost the Electorate to (Albertine) Saxony and split into many, many pieces. This all lies in the future in 1444 (via several planned DHEs), so the current division is based on that in 1445 between the brothers Friedrich and Wilhelm. Thuringia starts under PU by Saxony, but there will be several events which will make it a difficult subject to keep quiet for Saxony. New provinces are Zwickau in Saxony and three in Thuringia (previously one province with low development), which is now much better represented by Erfurt (Mainz has a core on this province to represent certain historical complexities), Weimar and Coburg (Franconian culture).

Franconia has seen a few more provinces and tags added. Most importantly, Franconia itself is now a formable tag if you manage to unite the Franconian lands. This is however easier said than done as Franconia now includes two Free Cities and lands owned by strong neighbours (i.e. Coburg by Thuringia). Würzburg, the titular holders of the duchy, remain the strongest power, with a new province in Fulda (Rhenish i.e. Hessian culture) and vassal in Bamberg. Their main rivals, Ansbach, now have Bayreuth as their junior partners in PU. They are now also bordered on the west by Rothenburg, another new Free City. Finally, the large province of Mainz has been split and the new Franconian culture province of Aschaffenburg has been added.

Moving West, @Ofaloaf did some pyrotechnics to the lower Rhineland map to make space to squeeze in Jülich (owned by Berg). The Palatinate has a new province in Zweibrücken, and although Hessen has no new provinces, its provinces have been renamed to Oberhessen and Niederhessen, with Niederhessen (Kassel) now the capital and more affluent province.

Finally, Bohemia, like other regions, has gained some new provinces. Lusatia has been split in three (with Oberlausitz split between Bautzen and Görlitz). This has allowed us to make Lusatia an area and releasable tag, with the provinces now having Sorbian culture. Silesia, as you can see, has been split in two between Glogau and Opole. Silesia the tag still exists and can be formed by a Silesian country that owns all of Silesia and is not a subject. Bohemia and Moravia have seen three more provinces added, with space being made for Jindrichuv Hradec, Pardubice and Ostrava. Although this is quite a few new provinces, we split the development of existing provinces to make room for them, so Bohemian starting development is not noticeably higher; we will of course be paying attention to the balance side of things to avoid Bohemia becoming the Ottomans of Europe.

Northern Germany

upload_2019-5-6_13-46-21.png


We restrained ourselves from adding too many provinces to Brandenburg, mainly because this was not a very densely inhabited area and in 1444 few would have predicted that it would later rise to power. However, they did gain a new province in Brandenburg (the city) and are stronger than most of their neighbours, so if they can secure the alliances needed to keep the likes of Bohemia away, they are still well-placed to expand – especially since the sale of Neumark will now also grant them Dramburg.

Pomerania had a bit of a situation with their lack of primogeniture too (I seem to be repeating myself here). In fact, they split many, many times and were united much more seldom than they were divided. We went for a fairly conservative split and made them into Wolgast in the west and Stettin in the east, with new provinces in Wolgast and Rügen. A united Pomerania will of course be able to form Pomerania. Also, Rügen is a releasable tag that, in homage to Klaus Störtebecker and the hotbed of piracy that was the Baltic, will have the opportunity of going pirate if you own Golden Century.

The smaller states to the west of Brandenburg have each gained provinces, with Mecklenburg now correctly owning Stargard, Lüneburg’s significance better represented by the addition of Celle, and Magdeburg now owning the bishop’s summer residence of Halle. Braunschweig (previously one of the largest provinces of the HRE) has had the city of Göttingen split off it to the south (still owned by the Brunswick tag though) and is bordered to the east by the new Free City of Goslar, and the tag Verden now also owns a province called Verden as well as Stade.

Further west, Cologne too has an extra province in Paderborn (which is a releasable tag) and Berg is our new bordergore galore tag, owning Bielefeld as well as Berg and Jülich. Last but not least, Dortmund has also been added as a Free City.

Another change that we made in the north is in the cultures. There have been many calls for a “Lower Saxon” culture, and we have heeded these calls by splitting the Westphalian culture. Conveniently, this allows us to make the Kingdom of Hannover into the formable for the Lower Saxons and Westphalia into that for the Westphalians and Rhenish peoples.

upload_2019-5-6_14-54-18.png


As a final note, I’d add that our focus on the Holy Roman Empire gives us a good opportunity to add flavour events for the tags populating it. I’ve been loving reading through the suggestions in threads such as this one. Please keep them coming, and if there is any interesting historical event you would like to see in the game, feel free to ping me (I can also read German and French, so you can send me links in those languages too).

That’s it for now. Next week, I’ll be presenting a few of the German mission trees we have prepared so far.
 
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Actually it's rather easy to form a line and low frankish and rhine frankish diverged a long time ago not even in ck2 period or eu4 period.

As shown by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Dutch

Further more the division was already possibly created by having the Salian Franks and Ripuarian Franks as two seperate groups as early as 400 CE
Yet the article you yourself linked states
some linguists prefer to avoid the term "Old Dutch" altogether and speak solely of Old Low Franconian.
Also it does not adress the issue of drawing a line between the dialects. It in facts only notes places with discoveries of the writing which to me very much suggests that we don't know beyond archaeological finds.
And 5th century to 12th century should not be read as 400 CE. That's not how a timespan works.
Later on it seems that ripuarian/rhine frankish had the high German consonant shift in around 1000 CE

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift

Also, the dutch in this regard are the dutch people as in the low frankish Germanic peoples living in the low Lands and used to be part of the lower Lotharingian realm.
The high germanic consonant shift is really only revevant if you can prove that the rheineland germans have gone through it in 1444. Which I doubt seeing how german was only standardised following the reformation. Up until the reformation high german was at best high saxon and at worst the Wittenberg dialect.
 
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Hoping for some love for the biggest German City that time. Please don’t forget the Soest Feud in 1444 (simplified) between cologne and Soest + Mark.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soest_Feud

Please don’t forget the dubious bad luck of Dietrich von Moers. The source is German wiki:

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_II._von_Moers

succession pact on berg (1450) which failed Because the brother of duke of berg had a son who appeared after he was „unable to rule his territory“ ...
 
Please tell me that the Kingdom of Lotharingia will be form-able with it's own unique ideas and missions? It'd be nice to see the HRE (United) ,Germany (form-able), Italy (form-able), and Scandinavia (form-able) have unique ideas and missions too.
 
Yet the article you yourself linked states

Also it does not adress the issue of drawing a line between the dialects. It in facts only notes places with discoveries of the writing which to me very much suggests that we don't know beyond archaeological finds.
And 5th century to 12th century should not be read as 400 CE. That's not how a timespan works.

The high germanic consonant shift is really only revevant if you can prove that the rheineland germans have gone through it in 1444. Which I doubt seeing how german was only standardised following the reformation. Up until the reformation high german was at best high saxon and at worst the Wittenberg dialect.
The consonant shift happened across Germany and even before the standardization. This isn't something up for discussion but is very much established. You seem to use no sources to back up your claims.

You seem to confuse Northern Rhineland as being normal Rhenish VS what the Eu4 game represents is hessian.
 
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The consonant shift happened across Germany and even before the standardization. This isn't something up for discussion but is very much established. You seem to use no sources to back up your claims.

You seem to confuse Northern Rhineland as being normal Rhenish VS what the Eu4 game represents is hessian.

Split Rhenish and hessian.
 
Speaking of Lower Saxon, and noticing that the Netherlands will probably get some updates, not only being a Frisian culture (a fine addition if I may say so), but for me it raises the question of culture in the Lowlands area.

I will generally be referring to this map, and altough it is a modern language map, it represents cultural borders decently enough with the exception of Groningen being a lower German area, but it seems that it will be correctly Frisian in 1444
800px-Continental_West_Germanic_languages.png

As shown in the map, the general area east of the river IJssel speaks a dialect which is nominally a Lower Saxon dialect. In the era of the Republic, the lands east of the IJssel were commonly seen as German over in Holland. Over the last few decades, the dialect has seen a slow decline, along with pretty much every other dialect in the country. Yet regional identities remain strong.

What is my point with this? Well, maybe the cultural borders in the lowlands should be reworked. In 1444, the lands making up the County of Zutphen and Oversticht shouldn't have the same culture as Holland, a culture which is meant to represent the modern idea of what it means to be "Dutch". The common farmer/townsperson would have more in common with a man in Bentheim or even Münster or maybe Bremen for that matter. Not to forget that these are land which were only brought into the "Netherlands" relatively late. The last of the provinces, the Duchy of Gelre, was only added to the Habsburg Netherlands in 1543. And the Lordship of Borculo was only brought into the republic in 1616 when Maurits conquered the city (a title still held by the Dutch king btw). And half of the time, the lands independent from "western" influence. Gelre spent half of the time in personal unions with Gullik, Berg and Kleef, and since 1227 Oversticht enjoyed a large amount of autonomy from Utrecht. The city of Groningen actually became a rather large player in Frisian afairs in the timeframe of the game. My general point here is that the area which I'm talking about was politically distinct enough from "the rest of the country" (in which way you can speak of that country in 1444) and that it would have more in common with what lies east.

What I would suggest is that you would split off the province of Zutphen from Gelre (and possibly give it a new tag which would be a vasal/pu of Gelre) and make it Westphalian culture, since making all of Gelre Westphalian would mean making the Veluwe and Betuwe that culture as well, along with making the province of Overijssel Westphalian.

You sound confusing I don't think you're a Dutch native speaker to deal with this. Firstly I find the map awful as it groups Dutch Low Saxon as a German dialect, not dutch. And before you argue, I'm going to remind you that the Dutch language has been influenced throughout history ranging from various time periods in history and dialectical influences (Frisian,Flemish,Brabant,Holland, to name a few) its more like a mesh of dialects that came into one and became the standards for modern Dutch. My Dutch teaches described this as 'Oerverwantschap' : Two languages or dialects come into contact with each other a lot during the time of language formation. There is mutual influence, and two very similar languages arise in an early phase, which then develop in their own way.

Which I think is the case for Dutch, (and I speak for myself as a native speaker)

Secondly, according to Wikipedia the standardisation of the Dutch language started around the 15th century so this would make up for a good argument to keep status quo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language#Modern_Dutch_(15th_century_–_present):
"A process of standardisation started in the Middle Ages, especially under the influence of the Burgundian Ducal Court in Dijon (Brussels after 1477). The dialects of Flanders and Brabant were the most influential around this time. The process of standardisation became much stronger at the start of the 16th century, mainly based on the urban dialect of Antwerp. The 1585 fall of Antwerp to the Spanish army led to a flight to the northern Netherlands, where the Dutch Republic declared its independence from Spain. This influenced the urban dialects of the province of County of Holland. In 1637, a further important step was made towards a unified language,[34] when the Statenvertaling, the first major Bible translation into Dutch, was created that people from all over the new republic could understand. It used elements from various, even Dutch Low Saxon, dialects but was predominantly based on the urban dialects of Holland of post 16th century"

so please don't waste a culture for some Drentse boeren

thirdly, you did research on the dutch language yet you forgot to mention that the already existing Flemish culture is historically inaccurate to exist in the eu4 timeline. It shouldn't be there. The Flemish culture, the identity as we know today originated from a political movement in opposition to the foundation of Belgium in 1830.

same for the wallonian "culture". Before the foundation of Belgium Wallonian was the word used by Dutch-speakers to refer French-speakers. So technically Wallonian culture is also historically inaccurate to exist in the eu4 timeline. (But I do acknowledge the meaning of the world gradually changed to only include Francophones in the lower countries)

Fifthly, what the map failed to show was that Kleverland (or Cleves) was Dutch language territory in eu4 period so I'd suggest to change Cleves to Dutch culture for better accuracy
as well here's a bilingual signpost just for fun:
em_bord.jpg
 
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33/5000


Bohemia was always a superpower in Germany

Most of the power of Bohemia in Germany had already vanished in 1444. It peaked with Charles IV., then Weneslaus IV. threw most of it out of the window. Then the Hussite wars and Utraquism happened. In 1444, Bohemia would have to build its power in Germany from the scratch.

And their power was always in subtle diplomacy and influence. Not in blobbing into it like there is no tommorow.
 
guys, don't give up eu4 for imperator, please
seperate development teams. They're currently doing the same for eu4 as the Hoi4 team did for Waking the Tiger, and the CK2 team did for Holy Fury. So, one big expansion for the year. After that I imagine they'll likely continue with some smaller DLC's again, before slowly starting to shift development to the inevitable EU5 (which I expect to be released before or in 2024. Mind you that's just a guess as we have yet to see a development cycle for a game complete since the change of DLC Policy with CK2).
 
The changes in culture placement here, particularly the addition of the Sorbs, make me wonder if we will see the addition of the Kashubians as a new culture in Pomerania/West Prussia as well. Historically they were present as a majority of the population in parts of there even into the 1900's, including the Baltic environs west of Danzig (though not including the city proper). Given that Germanization of the region in 1444 would be massively lessened, it seems reasonable that you'd have a few Kashubian provinces in Pomerelia and West Prussia, especially if Danzig is split up.
 
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I propose the addition of releasable Kashubia, they already existed back then obviously, also the rulers of Pomerania usually had something related to Kashubia in the title. Here are some historical ones:

Barnim I: "dei gratia dux Slavorum (Slavs) et Cassubie (Kashubians)"

Barnim III: "dux Cassuborum"

Bogusław I: "Książę Kaszub (Duke of Kashubians)"


So yeah, just saying that Kashubians for sure existed back then
 
You sound confusing I don't think you're a Dutch native speaker to deal with this. Firstly I find the map awful as it groups Dutch Low Saxon as a German dialect, not dutch. And before you argue, I'm going to remind you that the Dutch language has been influenced throughout history ranging from various time periods in history and dialectical influences (Frisian,Flemish,Brabant,Holland, to name a few) its more like a mesh of dialects that came into one and became the standards for modern Dutch. My Dutch teaches described this as 'Oerverwantschap' : Two languages or dialects come into contact with each other a lot during the time of language formation. There is mutual influence, and two very similar languages arise in an early phase, which then develop in their own way.

Which I think is the case for Dutch, (and I speak for myself as a native speaker)

Secondly, according to Wikipedia the standardisation of the Dutch language started around the 15th century so this would make up for a good argument to keep status quo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language#Modern_Dutch_(15th_century_–_present):


so please don't waste a culture for some Drentse boeren

thirdly, you did research on the dutch language yet you forgot to mention that the already existing Flemish culture is historically inaccurate to exist in the eu4 timeline. It shouldn't be there. The Flemish culture, the identity as we know today originated from a political movement in opposition to the foundation of Belgium in 1830.

same for the wallonian "culture". Before the foundation of Belgium Wallonian was the word used by Dutch-speakers to refer French-speakers. So technically Wallonian culture is also historically inaccurate to exist in the eu4 timeline. (But I do acknowledge the meaning of the world gradually changed to only include Francophones in the lower countries)

Fifthly, what the map failed to show was that Kleverland (or Cleves) was Dutch language territory in eu4 period so I'd suggest to change Cleves to Dutch culture for better accuracy
as well here's a bilingual signpost just for fun:
em_bord.jpg
Some minor details but Dutch isn't a mix of dialects as its portrayed. Dutch originates from Low Frankish and predominantly originated in Brabant and Flanders, hence your comment about Flemish does make some sense as Dutch in 1444 was mainly the southern dialects and only the Hollandic dialect was a bit different from this Low Frankish as it was influenced by a substrate of Frisian / Ingveonic. Hence you have a shift of the soft G to a J in Gij VS Jij
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Germanic

However the Line between as you put it Drenthse boeren and Dutch is actually not based on dialect but rather on Low Saxon. Drenthe, Overijssel (Twents and Urks) and Achterhoeks/Veluws are not a Dutch dialect even though it is often portrayed as such. It's heavily influenced by it, but it is by definition not part of the same branch of west Germanic as its closer to Westphalian dialect and thus part of the Ingveonic languages.

Only because of dutch standardization did Hollandic become the standard dutch dialect and did dialects in the rest of the country start to dissappear and as you put it it only remained with the Drenthse boeren. But that's because of the stigma and rural nature of preserving older dialects.

Walloon was a seperate French dialect closer to Lorrain dialect than Parisian dialect, plus culture isn't just language but also people. Hence Walloon is a good culture as the Walloon people are distinct enough in their history to seperate them from France. Aka Liegian citizens wouldn't consider themselves French and Hainaut / Namur might wanna have a word with you too.
 
all I want is an HRE that doesn't become 4 or 5 big blobs by the 1800s, if that can happen little else matters to me

This is my feeling too.

Historically most of the European Great Powers (especially France) conspired to preserve the HRE because there was a consensus that it kept Germany weak and divided. For a long time after 1444 the HRE actually continued to fragment and splinter, the challenge is too implement it in a way that is organic and enjoyable for the player.