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EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of May 2017

Hello everyone and welcome to this developed diary on setup changes in the Greater Russian region!

For the upcoming 1.22 patch we’ve had another look at modern Russia and Belarus. This is a region that has received attention previously but we feel that it was not up to the level of detail we have become accustomed to in other parts of Europe and that it could not properly reflect the lay of the land in the region in 1444.

The Russian Principalities in 1444:

In 1444 Russia was still divided into a number of principalities, in many ways this is the result of the constant interference from the Golden Horde. The Khans had defeated and divided the early Russian principalities and have come to not only exact tribute from the remaining states here, but have also acted as king-makers and guarantors of princely power.
As the game opens however the Golden Horde is going through a rough couple of decades with external pressure and internal struggles, historically ending in its general breakup into a number of much weaker successor states.
The Great Horde in our start date is what remains of the core of the Golden Horde but others, such as Crimea, would in time come to conquer and attempt to usurp their role as the overlord of the Russian states.
What this means for the Russians is that while horde intervention is still a factor in local politics, they have now been given some time to grow and thrive. As one of the main collectors of tribute for the Khans, Muscovy is now in the process of building a strong power base and has already used a combination of bribes and coercion to secure control over land of the minor princes in the region.


eu4_30.jpg


As you can see, in 1.22 we have chosen to greatly expand the number of provinces in this region. This allows for a greater degree of detail in the warfare in this region both between the principalities themselves and between the Russians and the Tatar hordes.
We have also taken the opportunity once again to adjust the development of the Russian region a bit, increasing it slightly to allow the states here to better make their mark upon the world.
In 1.22 one of the things this means is that some of the states we know and love are no longer the same. Ryazan is now a 4 province state and Yarloslavl and Tver are now 2 and 3 provinces respectively.

Muscovy:
First of the Russian principalities we have Muscovy itself. In 1444 this is already the dominant native power and in 1.22 it is the overlord of no less than five smaller principalities. The expanded number of provinces ensures that all is not lost simply from one battle or one siege, there is now room to move around when Kazan, the Great Horde or Lithuania comes knocking.
The greater detail has also allowed us to better show a number of centers of regional importance, giving it more of the historical depth that we have come to expect of other regions where we have overhauled the map.

Among the changes to the setup for Muscovy is also a revision of their ideas. Muscovite Ideas are now separate from those you get for forming Russia and currently look like this:

Muscovite Ideas:

Traditions:
Diplomatic Relations +1
Shock Damage Dealt +10%

1. Gatherers of Tribute: National Tax Income Modifier: +10%
2. Legacy of Dmitriy Donskoi: Yearly Army Tradition: +0.5
3. Seat of Metropolitan Bishop: Missionary Strength +1%, Tolerance of True Faith +1
4. Pomestnoe Voisko: Land Morale +10%
5. Strength of the Boyars: Stability Cost Modifier -20%
6. Zasechnaya Cherta: Fort Maintenance -20%
7. Descendants of the Byzantine Emperors: Diplomatic Reputation +1

Ambition:
Land Force Limit Modifier +33%

The decision to form Russia will in turn give a new set of ideas should you choose to abandon your old Principality ideas.

Russian Ideas:

Traditions:
National Manpower Modifier: +33%
Core-Creation Cost: -10%

Land of the Rus: Aggressive Expansion Impact: -10%
Siberian Frontier: Colonists: +1
Russian Artillery Yard: Artillery Cost: -10%, Artillery Combat Ability +10%
Life-Long Conscription: Land Force Limit Modifier: +50%
Abolish the Mestnichestvo: Yearly Corruption: -0.1
The Table of Ranks: Yearly Army Tradition: +0.25, Advisor Cost: -10%
Broaden the Curriculum of the Cadet Corps: +5% Land Morale, 10% less fire damage received

Ambition:
Yearly Legitimacy: +1

New Playable Countries:
In EU in general and in Russia in particular there’s always a decision to be made of what is to be a province with high autonomy and, what should be a subject state or even independent. Our game enforces strict differences depending on what you pick but in reality it was quite possible in many cases to be somewhere in between.
In the case of Russia in 1444, Muscovy is in possession much land that really belongs to a minor principality that they have somehow acquired (often by simply buying the land from the princes in control of it) or that is ruled by a prince that has moved to the court in Moscow, allowing the Muscovite's to administrate it for him. In 1.22 we have taken another look at how we want the Muscovite lands to be portrayed and added two new vassal tags:

The first is the small state of Rostov, between Tver and Yaroslavl. This principality was in many ways quite firmly under Muscovite control ever since its princes had sold off half of the lands to Moscow, but Rostov would not be integrated entirely until 1474.
Rostov has a long and interesting history and would continue to play an important part in Russian politics every now and then, even as a part of a greater Russian state. We therefore thought it would be an interesting addition to the mix of states you can play in 1444.

Rostov Ideas:

Traditions:
Provincial Trade Power Modifier: +10%
Idea Cost: -10%

Re-Unification of Rostov: Goods Produced Modifier: +10%
Ancient Heritage: Aggressive Expansion Impact: -10%
Ecclesiastical Center: Tolerance of True Faith: +2
Entrepot of Russia: Trade Efficiency: +10%
Rostov Architecture: Construction Cost: -10%
Political Influence: Diplomats: +1
Rostov Enamel: Production Efficiency: +10%

Ambition:
Diplomatic Reputation: +1

The second new state we have added is one in the north, right at the border with Novgorod. The principality of Beloozero was never a metropolis and is long past its glory days in 1444. Ruled by Muscovite princes it would formally be incorporated directly into Muscovy in 1486 and its nobles would mostly make their mark upon the world within the frames of the Russian Empire. It's position is an interesting one however and our game history might unfold differently.

Beloozero Ideas:

Traditions:
Trade Efficiency: +10%
Infantry Combat Ability: +10%

Martial Heritage: Cavalry Cost: -10%
Monastic Traditions: Yearly Prestige: +1
Strengthen Local Lineages: Yearly Legitimacy: +1
Northern Trade: Domestic Trade Power: +25%
Officers of Beloozero: Yearly Army Tradition +0.5
Boreal Warfare: Attrition for Enemies: +1
Scientific Patronage: Technology Cost: -5%

Ambition:
Goods Produced Modifier +10%

Novgorod:

eu4_28.jpg


In the far north we have broken up some of Novgorod’s bigger provinces. Novgorod's domains always presented something of a difficulty to portray in that many of these locations had little in terms of population, yet contributed to the overall wealth of the Republic.
It also gives Novgorod some much needed strategic depth when fighting Muscovy to the south.

Lithuania:

eu4_31.jpg


Lithuania has long been a region in need of greater detail. In 1.22 we have broken up and reshaped many of their provinces, especially in the northeast. When adding new provinces we have tried to accommodate important regional centers, the internal administrative divisions of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth as well as the gradual expansion of Muscovy and later Russia into Belarus and the Ukraine.
As this was a highly contested region for much of the period covered by the game this should should hopefully make the region a lot more interesting to play in. It should also allow for a more engaging conquest for strong neighboring states...

That was all for today!
Next week’s developer diary will be written by Johan and may or may not touch on more things that could impact the region...
 
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Half of this thread is complaining about the lower manpower bonus from Russian national ideas. I'm honestly curious - are these complaints founded in flavor or gameplay complaints?

I'm currently playing ironman Russia - I don't even know what to do with all my manpower. I've drained my pool exactly once in the first 20 years of the game and never since. I own Scandinavia, PLC and half of India, so I haven't exactly stayed away from conflict. In the year 1600 my manpower pool is well over 200k without even taking Quantity or building more than 10 manpower buildings and I literally can't find a war big enough to spend it lower than 150k. I'm way more capped economically (army maintenance) than on manpower. I don't even use half my force limit and I'm still fielding the largest army in the world.

What am I missing? What do players of Russia use their manpower for, that these changes would hurt them so much? From my (somewhat limited) gameplay experience I couldn't care less.

Agreed. Having a steady manpower is good... but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. 200k... just wait until you hit a million . No need for a huge manpower bonus, but infantry cost reduction and infantry ability bonus.
 
While the allies did have brilliant commanders, there were 41,000 Russians and 18,500 Austrians at Kunersdorf against 51,000 Prussians, they hardly won through mass but rather through better use of the terrain and having troops of good enough quality to fight the Prussians. As for the supply problems, the Russians' difficulty was in supplying an army over poor roads at a long distance, which is why they tried to take Kolberg several times but didn't succeed until December 1762. When they took Kolberg things immediately changed and Britain was expecting Prussia to fall shortly, but then Elizabeth died and was succeeded by Peter III who pulled Russia out of the war.

Well, you are right, Kunersdorf showed that the Russian army had a decent amount of quality. I would say, that this should be reflected in a moral buff. This was represented in the Battle of Borden, where Napoleon thought that the Russians were no longer real people, but more machines, just fighting in their undying loyalty to the Tsar.

Due to this the Russians should have a high morale, but average quality. (in my humble opinion).
 
In this new patch Russia's +33% national manpower will be tied for the largest idea outside of Quantity ideas. And the +50% force limit will still be tied with Quantity for the largest such modifier. The force limit idea has not been changed.

You're really making a fuss over nothing. Russia's previous +75% manpower was largely inconsequential due to the country's troops being such poor quality.
if you don't mind me asking, What is the other nation with +33% national manpower?
 
With those changes Moldavia and Crimean Khanate would look rather ugly, so they might also enjoy some more provinces.

The Romanian states should definitely receive some more for added flavor considering the Balkans kept receiving them, Poland received them, Hungary kept receiving them and now the Rus' receives them.
"Bukovina", Northern Moldavia, should be added along with a passage to Transylvania. The Habsburgs annexed to get a direct route from Transylvania to Galicia, it still remains the main connection route today.
 
The map changes look great, but please reconsider the Russian ideas. The "National identity" of the former Russian/Muscovite Ideas was Military supremacy by sheer numbers, which is a very "Russian" thing to have, but the new ideas do not represent that at all and are very lackluster when compared to other european great powers (France, Spain, Austria, Prussia, Sweden...)

The superiority of the Western military thought was recognised at the very least since the Ivan IV, and so is the need of modernisation. There wasn't any "sheer numbers" idea back then, even though the atmosphere of the "Preserve the artillery, new soldiers will be born by women" was there.

The idea of Western innovations was always there after some point, later carried on by Boris Godunov and others, finally getting there with the Peter the Great.

So I think there shouldn't be a lot of manpower ideas - the manpower should come more naturally from the provinces. But there should be some ideas/decisions to reflect the strive towards innovations.
 
Do you all remember that Russia has Orthodox religion?
 
The superiority of the Western military thought was recognised at the very least since the Ivan IV, and so is the need of modernisation. There wasn't any "sheer numbers" idea back then, even though the atmosphere of the "Preserve the artillery, new soldiers will be born by women" was there.

The idea of Western innovations was always there after some point, later carried on by Boris Godunov and others, finally getting there with the Peter the Great.


About "western superiority" and modernisation: half Tsars and Emperors somehow modernized military. Ivan III - Pomestnoe Voisko (giving land for service in army, so it had some huge numbers, a lot of which were used in garrison duties and stuff); Ivan IV - streltsy, centrilized commad, supply system, organization of border guards, some tweaks to recruitment and service; Mikhail Fyodorovich - regiments of new formation; Alexey Mikhailovich - upgrades to streltsy, artillery and regiments of new formation, small meritocratic upgrade (soldiers could became dvoryans for service), creation of Gosudarev Polk (elite regiments of Tsar, again); Fyodor III - abolishment of mestnichestvo; Peter I - well there is a lot, but it is pretty wellknown; Anna Ioannovna - Munnich Reforms; Catherine II - Potemkin Reforms and Suvorov's legacy. It was process you couldn't stop - you should be close to top European powers in quality.

It was always there. All rulers of Muscovy/Russia invited or recruited different specialist to be on par culturaly and technologicaly. Still, it was hard cause Russia wasn't envolved in European wars that much to get some of the ideas.





Do you all remember that Russia has Orthodox religion?

We know that Patriarch mapmode appeared. Maybe there won't be any manpower from religion.
 
About "western superiority" and modernisation: half Tsars and Emperors somehow modernized military. Ivan III - Pomestnoe Voisko (giving land for service in army, so it had some huge numbers, a lot of which were used in garrison duties and stuff); Ivan IV - streltsy, centrilized commad, supply system, organization of border guards, some tweaks to recruitment and service; Mikhail Fyodorovich - regiments of new formation; Alexey Mikhailovich - upgrades to streltsy, artillery and regiments of new formation, small meritocratic upgrade (soldiers could became dvoryans for service), creation of Gosudarev Polk (elite regiments of Tsar, again); Fyodor III - abolishment of mestnichestvo; Peter I - well there is a lot, but it is pretty wellknown; Anna Ioannovna - Munnich Reforms; Catherine II - Potemkin Reforms and Suvorov's legacy. It was process you couldn't stop - you should be close to top European powers in quality.

It was always there. All rulers of Muscovy/Russia invited or recruited different specialist to be on par culturaly and technologicaly. Still, it was hard cause Russia wasn't envolved in European wars that much to get some of the ideas.

Not sure if it meant to be a counter argument?

You basically expanded my post with more concrete examples.

Surely it wasn't finished with the Peter I, it's just became smoother afterwards with the wagon West mode (and, of course, with rulers of more Germanic origin), switching from "we and these fancy foreigners" to "we are pretty much about as fancy as these fancy foreigners".
 
Not sure if it meant to be a counter argument?

You basically expanded my post with more concrete examples.

Surely it wasn't finished with the Peter I, it's just became smoother afterwards with the wagon West mode (and, of course, with rulers of more Germanic origin), switching from "we and these fancy foreigners" to "we are pretty much about as fancy as these fancy foreigners".

It is like more information to work with - there was no intent to contradict. I can't say that Russian army was BEST, but i can said that it wasn't much worse than one of Great Powers. New ideas work in that way which is good :)

About "fancy foreigners" is a little bit harsh. What do you understand by that? The main problem in relations was difference in religion, in other things - people were ok. Yeah, there were some problems that niemcy were more privileged, but, by 17th century (it could be earlier in not for Time of Troubles, during which a lot of German Quarters were destroyed) peasants and citizens with good income often borrowed different some aspects or tradtions of life from foreighners, improving quality of life.)
 
Muscovy being much stronger than Novgorod and easily beating them has always been fine, because history. I never had a problem with that, and a smart Novgorod player always had a chance of outwitting a Muscovite AI.
However, what made Novgorod almost unplayable in the last several patches was not Muscovy, but Denmark - which always rivals human Novgorod and allies Muscovy...so that even if you manage to beat the later in a war, you will get another swarm of Scandinavians coming from the North. Their "Danish Trade" mission that give them a core on Neva doesn't help! All in all, in the very first war you face an alliance that has an army of about 4-5 times larger than your forcelimit, and most probably that will happen before you can even start you diplo game with PLC and all.
So I totally agree that surviving as Novgorod is supposed to be difficult, and the current power balance between them and Muscovy (that favors that later) is historic and fine. But the whole Denmark-Sweden-Norway-Moscow beatdown makes Novgorod unplayabe in an ahistoric way. Is something going to be done about that?
 
It is like more information to work with - there was no intent to contradict. I can't say that Russian army was BEST, but i can said that it wasn't much worse than one of Great Powers. New ideas work in that way which is good :)

About "fancy foreigners" is a little bit harsh. What do you understand by that? The main problem in relations was difference in religion, in other things - people were ok. Yeah, there were some problems that niemcy were more privileged, but, by 17th century (it could be earlier in not for Time of Troubles, during which a lot of German Quarters were destroyed) peasants and citizens with good income often borrowed different some aspects or tradtions of life from foreighners, improving quality of life.)

I didn't mean "fancy" as bad, more as something like "peculiar-ish".

Well, you know, the sort of thing we have even today in Russia - this implicit piety before the foreigners of sorts, where even people who will wrap themselves into the Guardian stripes, but will pick something "made in Germany" when they have a chance. (just in case - let's not slide into politics, it's more of an example of what I wanted to convey by this term).

That, of course, applies only to "first class" foreigners, not to Poles. Basically just like it always was.
 
That, of course, applies only to "first class" foreigners, not to Poles. Basically just like it always was.

So, you don't know about polonophilia of court during reign of Feyodor III?:DDDD

Well, you know, the sort of thing we have even today in Russia - this implicit piety before the foreigners of sorts, where even people who will wrap themselves into the Guardian stripes, but will pick something "made in Germany" when they have a chance. (just in case - let's not slide into politics, it's more of an example of what I wanted to convey by this term).

Because german engineering - best engineering? Jokes aside - it is good to borrow something, that will improve your life quality. Russia was harsh place for all history - weather, position and a lot of other things, so you would think about surviving, not about creating fancy gardens. But when someone saw them their thought was "Wow, this is kinda cool. And helps to be relaxed, while you will have something to be proud about". And there were a lot of suff like this. Peter just brought Russia into European Sphere, so there would be not only borrowing, but, also, sharing.
 
More than Morale, I would see a nice Army Tradition idea as Russia. Troops were loyal to the Czar because of the Church and the Generals.

Otherwise, shock damage on Finisher is something I'd enjoy as Russia, fits well to the idea of "Trust the Bayonet" that Russian General Staff believed in. And you'd kinda end up in the late 17th /18th century Russian army, Artillery and Bayonets.

Or if not a Military bonus, a bigger advisor pool to show the fact that Russia did make great minds come to them to modernise the country it's good but not something broken, more useful than +1 Legitimacy "for now" (lets be honest, when you get in a war and have no Morale / Discipline advisor in your pool, you grin a bit).
(in short I would get rid of the Advisor cost to boost the Army Tradition and just have a bigger pool of Advisors)
 
So, you don't know about polonophilia of court during reign of Feyodor III?:DDDD

Yeeah it didn't work that well. I guess it's hard to develop something towards your neighbour who is basically like you in everything but religion.

Because german engineering - best engineering?

Not even engineering - I had an American friend visiting, in a small town that piety was felt especially strongly. Mixed with Zadornovshina, it gave a really weird effecto_O
 
To illustrate this for everyone:

Traditions:
National Manpower Modifier +33%
Core-Creation Cost -10%

Aggressive Expansion Impact -10%
Colonists +1 & adjacent auto-explore
Artillery Cost -10% & Artillery Combat Ability +10%
Land Force Limit Modifier +50%
Yearly Corruption -0.1
Yearly Army Tradition +0.25 & Advisor Cost -10%
Land morale +5% & Fire damage taken -10%

Ambition:
Yearly Legitimacy +1

Suggestions:
Change AE -10% to culture conversion cost -20% as Russia had before
Remove land morale from last idea and increase army tradition to at least +0.5 ideally +1. If only +0.5 increase advisor discount to -20%
And as for the Ambition, how about something out of left field? Ship cost -20% (Peter the Great working as a shipwright in the Netherlands during the Grand Embassy)
  • I agree with this, AT bonus to 0,5 isn't OP and would reflect good generals Russia had (Suvorov).
  • Artillery bonuses are good.
  • I also agree on replacing AE -10% with Culture conversion cost -20%, e.g. come back to the original idea which gave Russia a specific edge there.
  • Finally, I like the -10% Fire damage taken. As far as I know, this is a very rare bonus (I think only Prussia has a -20% but it's a splendor bonus of the Age of Revolution). But +5% morale damage is weak and all NI morale bonuses are at least +10%. Therefore, I think I prefer a single bonus, either a boring +10% morale, or a more interesting -15% (or even -20%) fire damage taken as a last idea.
Anyway, with the current change in place, this means that:
Muscowy ideas are more efficient in the first part of the game, with +10% morale and +10% shock damage dealt. Then Russian ideas are probably more efficient when the fire phase and artillery come into their own with +10% artillery ability, -10% fire damage received, and morale decreases in value in favor of discipline and other damage bonuses.

As tech MIL 13 (1570) is generally the accepted point when artillery become useful in combat and not just in sieges, and the Tsardom of Russia was founded in 1547 by Ivan IV, I kind of like this new balance. :)
 
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Isn't it kind of strange that Muscovy is better at fighting than Russia? Why do Russian Ideas have no military bonuses? The Commonwealth is to their south with +Cav Combat, +Discipline, +Morale. I firmly believe that no player will ever take Russian Ideas and no AI with Russian Ideas will ever win against any of their natural rivals.

This is actually an absurdly bad idea set, like an idea set for a tier-3 nation.

Russian Ideas:

Traditions:
National Manpower Modifier: +33%
Core-Creation Cost: -10%

Land of the Rus: Aggressive Expansion Impact: -10%
Siberian Frontier: Colonists: +1
Russian Artillery Yard: Artillery Cost: -10%, Artillery Combat Ability +10%
Life-Long Conscription: Land Force Limit Modifier: +50%
Abolish the Mestnichestvo: Yearly Corruption: -0.1
The Table of Ranks: Yearly Army Tradition: +0.25, Advisor Cost: -10%
Broaden the Curriculum of the Cadet Corps: +5% Land Morale, 10% less fire damage received

Ambition:
Yearly Legitimacy: +1


Bolded are all military-based ideas. Bear in mind Fire damage is dominant later in the game; as are cannons.

And -10% Cannon cost isn't a bad idea [In fact it's unique now since Munster lost their reduction] at all given the cost of cannons.

Nor is +33% manpower with; you know; Mercs costing more?
 
Do you all remember that all Western European nations have access to Protestant and Reformed and that not only Russia has access to Orthodoxy?
I think his point was that Orthodox (in the current patch) gives a large manpower bonus. The closest any other Christian gets to it is Protestant and Coptic both with +10% recovery.

Also Russia has no Orthodox rivals and can easily end up the lone Orthodox state.