EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

[coegho]

You are right, I know I used a modern map with the 4 provinces as an example, but even using as a reference the old 7 provinces distribution I keep finding the south border and size of Lugo wrong in the EU4 map, and Ourense's shape it's just an invention, it doesn't resemble the original province or the modern at all.
I really don't care if they are left that way but in my opinion this provinces can be drawn better.
I agree with the name change from Vigo to Tuy.
View attachment 410033 View attachment 410034

Ok, you are right, sorry. I find it right as A Coruña/Lugo/Ourense/Pontevedra or A Coruña/Lugo/Ourense/Tui, both are ok.
As a curiosity, it could be a nice geeky touch if the names change if France conquer the provinces, because they were called "Tambre", "High Miño", "Low Miño" and "Sil" under Bonaparte's division. Well, maybe it could be an idea for a little mod...

Spoiler: French division of Spain

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

Well, actually, the Jucar has double the flow as the Segura, and it´s also 1.5 times longer. In any case: adding a river has some implications with movement of troops and bonuses to defense that I don't really think the Segura merit. Not even sure about the Jucar, and I couldn't really care less if it wasn't represented.

But no, Jucar and Segura are not nearly the same.

About troop movement, it´s the same as the Jucar. In some parts the river is traspasable in other parts is not.
If you say you don't care, then I see no problem. My proposal is already written in this forum, if the developers want to implement I'll be very happy.
Cheers from Murcia the BEST city ever

Try crossing this with 8k troops

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

Hi, I'd just like to add this in to bolster the argument about adding Setúbal to Portugal as a salt producing province:

http://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/7978.pdf

This is why I love the Paradox forums, in what other game forum are you going to find a paper on the 18th century salt trade between Setubal and Sweden? it's really interesting, I had no idea that this sort of major exchange existed back then, thanks for sharing!

 

[Mingmung]

In Aragon there is a big fail. Lleida it's a city of Catalonia not Aragon so, instead of Lleida this province should be named Caspe (one of the major aragonese cities in the zone that it's situated the newly province). Also Lleida it's much closer to the province of Urgell than the place where it's situated.

Another point to modify should be the provinces called Extremadura and Badajoz. In fact Badajoz it's a city of the region called Extremadura. The north province called Extremadura should be renamed Cáceres.

Check his latest updates; already done.

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

I'm sorry to insist, maybe nobody else agrees I still feel the need to add Guadalajara; it has always been a territorial division throughout the centuries we play in the game.

Besides Guadalajara I also wanted to talk about the Asturias releasable nation. It doesn't make much sense. It makes more sense to put Vizcaya releasable with Navarra group and then Asturias with León group.

First, let me show this map from 1065. Guadalajara was an important city when the muslims controlled the area. You can see it inside the Taifa de Toledo. However this map is too early but I show it because you can see where Castilla comes from. So it doesn´t make much sense to put Cantabria inside the releasable Asturias. However I understand that we need to take artistic licenses for the game but it would make more sense if you release Asturias together with the kingdom of León (next map).

This is another map, more advanced the Reconquista. Again notice Asturias inside León, Vizcaya inside Navarra, Cantabria inside Castilla. Again this map is much earlier than 1444 but I think it proves the point that it doesn't make sense to make the whole northern coast as a releasable Asturias:

The next is a map of the territorial divisions during the Antiguo Régimen (1474-1517). When it says "Reino" it means Kingdom. Principado can also be understood as Kingdom for the purpose of this game. Therefore if we want to be exquisite with the releasable nations (i.e. as we did with Mallorca) then we should have 10+ releasable nations in Spain area. I guess that's not convenient for playing but I'm just saying. Notice Castilla still controlling Cantabria as from the beginning. It makes more sense to make Leon and Asturias into the same releasable group than to make Asturias-Cantabria and then León. However I'm happy that the states division in the EU4 map somewhat resemble this map Also this is a longshot but please consider giving cores to Kingdom of Murcia in Murcia, Albacete and Alicante. Alicante too because belonging to Valencia kingdom it belonged to the Murcia kingdom not that long ago before the game starts.

Back to my point about Guadalajara.. This is a map of the territorial divisions in 1590 for Castille (mid game). Guadalajara pink in the center. The rest are more or less like the game represents them. Again, I think it's the only one missing in the game. Each color is a first level territorial division

This is for 1822 (end game) Guadalajara green near Madrid. I think it would be ideal that the game has divisions similar to this map. If you are worried about the provinces number then I would delete Gibraltar (which is currently only known because it's a colony of the UK) and add Guadalajara. Maybe other players will kill me for saying that

 

[Mingmung]

I think we should mainly focus on correcting the current setup than coming up with more provinces. As many others have already pointed out they'd like to see more, but it just falls to the design-philosophy of the devs.

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

I think we should mainly focus on correcting the current setup than coming up with more provinces. As many others have already pointed out they'd like to see more, but it just falls to the design-philosophy of the devs.

I thought so but I started searching for these maps last night so once I found them all I had to post them

I really think they could fix the releasable Asturias though. Maybe add it inside León and find other region to release

 

[tommassi]

I'm sorry to insist, maybe nobody else agrees I still feel the need to add Guadalajara; it has always been a territorial division throughout the centuries we play in the game.

Besides Guadalajara I also wanted to talk about the Asturias releasable nation. It doesn't make much sense. It makes more sense to put Vizcaya releasable with Navarra group and then Asturias with León group.

First, let me show this map from 1065. Guadalajara was an important city when the muslims controlled the area. You can see it inside the Taifa de Toledo. However this map is too early but I show it because you can see where Castilla comes from. So it doesn´t make much sense to put Cantabria inside the releasable Asturias. However I understand that we need to take artistic licenses for the game but it would make more sense if you release Asturias together with the kingdom of León (next map).

This is another map, more advanced the Reconquista. Again notice Asturias inside León, Vizcaya inside Navarra, Cantabria inside Castilla. Again this map is much earlier than 1444 but I think it proves the point that it doesn't make sense to make the whole northern coast as a releasable Asturias:

The next is a map of the territorial divisions during the Antiguo Régimen (1474-1517). When it says "Reino" it means Kingdom. Principado can also be understood as Kingdom for the purpose of this game. Therefore if we want to be exquisite with the releasable nations (i.e. as we did with Mallorca) then we should have 10+ releasable nations in Spain area. I guess that's not convenient for playing but I'm just saying. Notice Castilla still controlling Cantabria as from the beginning. It makes more sense to make Leon and Asturias into the same releasable group than to make Asturias-Cantabria and then León. However I'm happy that the states division in the EU4 map somewhat resemble this map Also this is a longshot but please consider giving cores to Kingdom of Murcia in Murcia, Albacete and Alicante.

Back to my point about Guadalajara.. This is a map of the territorial divisions in 1590 for Castille (mid game). Guadalajara pink in the center. The rest are more or less like the game represents them. Again, I think it's the only one missing in the game. Each color is a first level territorial division

This is for 1822 (end game) Guadalajara green near Madrid. I think it would be ideal that the game has divisions similar to this map. If you are worried about the provinces number then I would delete Gibraltar (which is currently only known because it's a colony of the UK) and add Guadalajara. Maybe other players will kill me for saying that

First map is pretty much irrelevant. Too far in time from the EU4 timeline. Second map is wrong in many places. Biscay stopped being part of Navarre in early 11th century, and this is just one example of where it´s wrong. Third one, irrelevant: they were not administrative borders by any means, at least in the Crown of Castille (there was only one cortes, contrary to what happened in the Crown of Aragon, in which Aragón, Catalonia and Valencia each had separate cortes). Fourth one: again, nothing administrative. Just shows which territories had a representative in the cortes. Guadalajara had one not because it was relevant, but because it was the seat of the Mendoza family. You will see for example that Zamora represented the whole of Galicia. That of course didn´t mean Zamora was part of Galicia. Last one: a proposal for provincial distribution of Spain after the timeline of the game is finished. Again, not very relevant.

I'm not opposed to Guadalajara being included in the game, mind you, but having three small, low-development provinces in the frontier with Aragon doesn't make much sense to me (at least if they're set on keeping the number of provinces as it is right now). Either you would need to remove Soria or Cuenca. If they decide to add another one... well, then I can probably think of other places where it would be a better idea to add it: Segovia, most probably.

Remember this is not necessarily a representation of how important a place was in 1444, or 1600, or 1800. It's gameplay reasons mostly that will drive the decision, as it should be.

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

First map is pretty much irrelevant. Too far in time from the EU4 timeline. Second map is wrong in many places. Biscay stopped being part of Navarre in early 11th century, and this is just one example of where it´s wrong. Third one, irrelevant: they were not administrative borders by any means, at least in the Crown of Castille (there was only one cortes, contrary to what happened in the Crown of Aragon, in which Aragón, Catalonia and Valencia each had separate cortes). Fourth one: again, nothing administrative. Just shows which territories had a representative in the cortes. Guadalajara had one not because it was relevant, but because it was the seat of the Mendoza family. You will see for example that Zamora represented the whole of Galicia. That of course didn´t mean Zamora was part of Galicia. Last one: a proposal for provincial distribution of Spain after the timeline of the game is finished. Again, not very relevant.

I'm not opposed to Guadalajara being included in the game, mind you, but having three small, low-development provinces in the frontier with Aragon doesn't make much sense to me (at least if they're set on keeping the number of provinces as it is right now). Either you would need to remove Soria or Cuenca. If they decide to add another one... well, then I can probably think of other places where it would be a better idea to add it: Segovia, most probably.

Remember this is not necessarily a representation of how important a place was in 1444, or 1600, or 1800. It's gameplay reasons mostly that will drive the decision, as it should be.

Hi maybe you should read my post, the purpose of the first maps are not to show political divisions but to prove that Cantabria shouldn't be part of an Asturias releasable nation.

About Segovia yeah that's also a good idea they should put that. I just keep giving ideas for provinces and the developers will decide when it's enough.

Finally, what you mentioned about the third map is true, but I think it works to show the different political divisions that we could reflect in the game. And about the forth map, yeah it's out of the timeframe of the game. It's exactly 1 year after the game ends and I did that on purpose. I don't think it's irrelevant (my god you really love that word). It is in fact very similar to the map we have in the game

 

[tommassi]

Hi maybe you should read my post, the purpose of the first maps are not to show political divisions but to prove that Cantabria shouldn't be part of an Asturias releasable nation.

I did read it. I only said that it's not relevant to the situation in 1444. Not that long before the date of that map Cantabria was indeed part of Asturias.

IMO, Asturias shouldn't even be included as a releasable tag. We already have Leon and it's exactly the same kingdom. But if they are going to include it, giving it a core in Cantabria makes as much sense as not doing it. After all, in most playthroughs it won't ever release and if Cantabria gets the right culture, that core will disappear with time.

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

I did read it. I only said that it's not relevant to the situation in 1444. Not that long before the date of that map Cantabria was indeed part of Asturias.

IMO, Asturias shouldn't even be included as a releasable tag. We already have Leon and it's exactly the same kingdom. But if they are going to include it, giving it a core in Cantabria makes as much sense as not doing it. After all, in most playthroughs it won't ever release and if Cantabria gets the right culture, that core will disappear with time.

What do you mean if Cantabria gets the right culture? I think I might be missing some game mechanics here :/

 

[Nuajan]

I've taken a look at city positioning as well as a few other matters. First though I'd like to quote this post by @Trin Tragula which explains some of the reasoning behind such things:



The short version is that city positioning and province shapes aren't entirely a matter of historical geography. With that said, here's how Iberia is looking on my personal build right now. Once again, nations are released for the sake of example.

View attachment 409932

Oh man, thank you very much!! It is very grateful that you listen to the users

 

[tommassi]

What do you mean if Cantabria gets the right culture? I think I might be missing some game mechanics here :/

Cores in provinces of different cultures than your primary one disappear after 50 years if the province culture is not in the same group as yours and you don't own the province, and 150 years if it is in the same group (anyone correct me if I got the numbers wrong). If yoru nation is the primary one for a given culture, those cores will never disappear. These are the current cultures within the iberian group in EU4, with the primary nation for each besides it:

So: cores of Leon in Leonese culture provinces will never fade. Cores of Castille in Leonese culture provinces will fade after 150 years. Let's imagine France somehow gets a core in a Leonese culture province, but it doesn´t own the province: the core will fade in 50 years.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Asturias will get Leonese culture. I'm also guessing that Asturias will not be the primary nation for the Leonese culture. Much less of the Castilian culture. Asturian cores will fade after 150 years. But, even if they came up with a new Asturian culture (doubt it, it would be just one province), Cantabria should still get Castilian culture. Meaning that the Asturian core on the province will fade in 150 years. That is, by 1594 that core will be gone unless at some point Asturias is released with Cantabria being part of it.

 

[Thevow]

Well, here goes some comments regarding the "Iberia update", my first ever contribution to this excellent forum!

Now, my comments will be mostly directed toward Portugal in the context of the aforementioned update, being approaching from both an historical and gameplay perspective.

As it has been noted several times, the topography in Iberia seems way… "flat" - flat in the sense that, besides the inclusion of the natural border of the Pyrenees, there is nothing else. As someone pointed out before, Spain is quite mountainous:

"Spain has six principal mountain ranges—the Pyrenees, the Cordillera Cantábrica, the Montes de Toledo, the Sierra Morena, the Serranías Penibéticas, and the Sistema Ibérico. The principal peaks are Pico de Aneto (3,404 m/11,168 ft) in the Pyrenees and Mulhacén (3,478 m/11,411 ft) in the Penibéticas." - (source -

https://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Spain-TOPOGRAPHY.html#ixzz5TYe0jwLq​

)


Wikipedia also has a list of mountains existing in Spain - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountains_in_Spain. I've also taken the liberty of locating this map online :

You'll note that the greener, the higher the elevation of the terrain - both the mountainous regions of northern Africa and the Pyrenees are roughly represented in EU4, however as we all know the same cannot be said for the mountain ranges that exist within Spain, even though the existent mountains are within the same elevation range - this should be rectified, as it would allow for a greater strategic depth and possibility for the Iberia region, while at the same time meeting the same criteria as the two offered examples (North Africa and Pyrenees).

Now, onward to Portugal - from an historic perspective, we're talking about a country that has one of the oldest borders in the world, it is also one of the oldest countries in Europe. The Portuguese Empire was actually the first global empire in history and one of the longest-lived colonial powers, lasting for almost six centuries from when Ceuta was captured in 1415, until Macau was handed-over in 1999.

We're talking about a country, who claimed victories over powers such as the Ottoman Empire, Spain, France to name a few, through multiple continents (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Portugal). Now, from a gameplay perspective, as someone has pointed out, Portugal is "sort of locked out" of some approaches, because if simply cannot be competitive with other Iberian powers, whilst in fact it was one of the major powers not only regionally but globally. The way Portugal is implemented, is toward solely being a colonial power, solely having the possibility of playing out an European game much later (note that I'm talking about a more casual player at best, trying to focus on something that would possibly be the most realistic "birds-eye-view" of the player population). Someone compared the Portuguese scenario with the whole of Ireland - (no offense or anything like that is intended) a region that during the time period to which EU4 is dedicated, cannot simply compete to the historical global significance of Portugal.

Portugal is portrayed a weak, pathetic country that is simply overrun by either Spain or Morocco most of the time (talking about AI), this is completely far from the truth, Portugal withstood several invasion attempts, time and time again, never being conquered - the union with Spain, was solely caused by a succession crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_succession_crisis_of_1580) , culminating with the eventual Portuguese victory in its war for independence. Think about the Spanish Invasion of Portugal in 1762 - both Spain and France where heavily defeated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_invasion_of_Portugal_(1762)), this is something that would be impossible under the terms in which Portugal is currently presented, even more so if Spain is given more provinces to have and develop, while Portugal won't.

Adding to the Portuguese Succession Crisis (and apologies if already implemented, at least I do not recall ever seeing it) - I believe this should be included for flavor, considering not only the dichotomy of Portugal/Spain but taking into consideration Savoy as well (even if with a modifier heavily toward Spain, sort of similar to what happens when firing the triggers for the Burgundian Inheritance).

I'd definitely would like to see a further rework of the Portuguese province scenario, agreeing on most of what has already been said - Setúbal, Braga for most part, while Olivença could prove to be nice addition for flavor, I'm thinking about similar to the "surrender of Maine" events between England and France.

Olivença was (and is) a region that has been heavily contested between Portugal and Spain for centuries now - http://www.olivenca.org/litigio_uk.htm the provided link has a ton of mentions (from a Portuguese perspective) to its rights for claim, along with the inclusion of its Chronology, also available on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivenza

Another comment in favor of adding Setúbal - not only because of its historical significance by itself, but also considering the significance of several of the towns that constitute the county - thinking of Almada on the other side of the river Tejo, facing Lisbon - Almada which had ( and still has) a fortress that was highly significant, along with a gold mine - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_of_Almada. Adding Setúbal, would represent the various different strategic and economic assets in the area from an historic perspective, and would add another province that from a gameplay perspective strengthens Portugal's presence in both sea by adding another port (and why not also a
Important Natural Harbor modifier or Estuary? also makes sense both historically, and for gameplay balance) while it also improves the ability to defend the capital - also something that is realistic and adds to the gameplay possibility.

One thing I'd suggest adding in Favor of Portugal, would be some sort of even to add a chance of Portugal Inheriting the crown of Castille/Spain - both countries were constantly competing, but at the same time both shared royal ties for centuries. As the crown of Spain inherited Portugal, there should be a sort of "what if" scenario included, in which the Portuguese crown could inherit the Spanish one - possibly something adding some additional Flavor? - Thinking of possibly something related with El Hechizado, Charles II of Spain and the War of the Spanish Succession.

what do you guys think?

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

Cores in provinces of different cultures than your primary one disappear after 50 years if the province culture is not in the same group as yours and you don't own the province, and 150 years if it is in the same group (anyone correct me if I got the numbers wrong). If yoru nation is the primary one for a given culture, those cores will never disappear. These are the current cultures within the iberian group in EU4, with the primary nation for each besides it:

View attachment 410064

So: cores of Leon in Leonese culture provinces will never fade. Cores of Castille in Leonese culture provinces will fade after 150 years. Let's imagine France somehow gets a core in a Leonese culture province, but it doesn´t own the province: the core will fade in 50 years.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Asturias will get Leonese culture. I'm also guessing that Asturias will not be the primary nation for the Leonese culture. Much less of the Castilian culture. Asturian cores will fade after 150 years. But, even if they came up with a new Asturian culture (doubt it, it would be just one province), Cantabria should still get Castilian culture. Meaning that the Asturian core on the province will fade in 150 years. That is, by 1594 that core will be gone unless at some point Asturias is released with Cantabria being part of it.

Hi, thanks for the explanation.
Well, as you put it it wouldn't be much of an issue.
I was thinking that they would give Asturias, Cantabria and Vizcaya something like "Asturian" culture. I didn't imagine to separate the culture from the releasable nation.
I realize my error thinking more in terms of culture rather than cores. Subconscious is really annoying

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

Adding to the Portuguese Succession Crisis (and apologies if already implemented, at least I do not recall ever seeing it) - I believe this should be included for flavor, considering not only the dichotomy of Portugal/Spain but taking into consideration Savoy as well (even if with a modifier heavily toward Spain, sort of similar to what happens when firing the triggers for the Burgundian Inheritance).

I recall receiving a Portugal succession event as Castille loooong loooong time ago and it never happened again but it seems they do have it. I don't think they took Savoy into consideration for that event though.
I think that they could make this event more frequent.

Edit:

One thing I'd suggest adding in Favor of Portugal, would be some sort of even to add a chance of Portugal Inheriting the crown of Castille/Spain - both countries were constantly competing, but at the same time both shared royal ties for centuries. As the crown of Spain inherited Portugal, there should be a sort of "what if" scenario included, in which the Portuguese crown could inherit the Spanish one - possibly something adding some additional Flavor? - Thinking of possibly something related with El Hechizado, Charles II of Spain and the War of the Spanish Succession.

I agree that would be awesome

 

[Nuajan]

Welcome all to today’s dev diary, where I’ll be covering the long-awaited Iberian and North African map update coming in the 1.28 ‘Spain’ update.

View attachment 409270

The Canary Islands have been split between Gran Canaria and Tenerife to represent the somewhat incomplete Castilian conquest and colonization of the islands.

Dears @neondt and @RodDel,

First of all, thank you very much to listen the users and to do the changes in the peninsula.

Although there are pending things in the peninsula, there is one thing that I believe is the MOST IMPORTANT for the historical development of the region.

I see that the Canary Islands have been divided in two, separating the province of Tenerife. This is a great idea and it is historical: Tenerife was conquered by the Catholic Kings, between the years 1494 and 1496. I say well: conquered. Tenerife was inhabited by the Guanches. The Guanche people were a Berber people of pagan religion and tribal organization. Although it was divided into several tribes, I think it is important to establish an independent duchy called: Guanche. Otherwise, Tenerife will be colonized by Portugal in all the games in 1460 and Castile will not be able to conquer Tenerife.

Please take this suggestion into account and establish the independent dukedom Guanche, of Berber culture and pagan religion, so that it can be conquered by Castile in 1494 and not colonized by Portugal in 1460. This would be profoundly ahistorical.

I add bibliography. I can also provide names of Guanche leaders and governors, in case you consider and implement this duchy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife#Spanish_conquest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aguere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Acentejo


Thank you very much and best regards.

 

[Mingmung]

@neondt Iberia is starting to look much better, there are still some bits to do, though.

Could you do a city-check in the Maghreb as well? Some capital cities are placed in different provinces altogether. Like Tétouan, Sidi Ifni, Salé and Rabbat. As well as others. I will try to make a suggestion again for this region later this week.

We're almost there!

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

Please take this suggestion into account and establish the independent dukedom Guanche, of Berber culture and pagan religion, so that it can be conquered by Castile in 1494 and not colonized by Portugal in 1460. This would be profoundly ahistorical.

Having Portugal establish itself in the Canaries is not at all profoundly ahistorical, they disputed the control of the islands with Castile until finally renouncing their claim in 1479. Nevertheless I like your suggestion of a Guanche tag!

 

[Nuajan]

Having Portugal establish itself in the Canaries is not at all profoundly ahistorical, they disputed the control of the islands with Castile until finally renouncing their claim in 1479. Nevertheless I like your suggestion of a Guanche tag!

You're right, but this did not happen. Well, in truth, the right of conquest of the Canary Islands was for Portugal for 52 days. Pope Eugenius IV declared the bull "Romanus Pontifex" granting Portugal the conquest of the Canary Islands. However, after the Castilian pressure, claiming his right as successor to the old Visigothic kingdom, he repealed that bull and signed the bull "Romani Pontificis", finally granting possession of the Canary Islands to Castile, in 1436.

http://www.historiadeiberiavieja.co...eval/cuando-islas-canarias-fueron-portuguesas (translate please)

For that reason, when Enrique the Navigator wanted to establish a portugese possession in the Canaries, he asked the King of Castile for permission. Permission that was denied.

It is true that Portugal maintained the dispute until the Treaty of Alcazobas of 1479 was signed, where the distribution of the African coast was established.

In my opinion, it would be perfect if in Tenerife there was an independent dukedom Guanche, of Berber culture and animist religion.

And, if Castile and Portugal enter into war before of 1480, as a peace treaty, through an event, the issue could be discussed and the distribution of the Atlantic possessions distributed: Azores, Madeira, Canary Islands and the other provinces that Portugal or Castille have (Cape Verde, Arguin, Guinea, etc)

This would be fantastic. In that negotiation, one could pass from PU between Porgual and Castilla (Castilla as minor), to Portugal losing all its oceanic possessions. The intermediate point would be the historical treaty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Castilian_Succession

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Alcáçovas

Would it be possible, @neondt and @RodDel ?