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EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

Welcome all to today’s dev diary, where I’ll be covering the long-awaited Iberian and North African map update coming in the 1.28 ‘Spain’ update.

iberia_map.png


Nations released for the sake of example


As things currently stand, though as always things are subject to change before release, Iberia consists of 571 development over 63 provinces. This includes the Macaronesia area but now excludes Labourd, which has been returned to the French region.

In Aragon, the distinction between the Kingdom of Aragon, the Kingdom of Valencia, and the Principality of Catalonia has become more pronounced. Tarragona is now rightly in the Catalonia area, and the province of Valencia has been split so that Castello and Xativa have become separate provinces. Valencia itself has the potential to be a very rich city indeed, as the player’s actions can lead to it becoming a major producer of silk. The three major Balearic Islands have become provinces in and of themselves, linked together by a strait and comprising their own Area.

Likewise, Galicia has seen itself grow from 1 province to 4, and now has an Area all to itself.

Portugal and Granada have been gifted one additional province each: Aveiro and Malaga respectively.

Last but not least, many citizens of Navarra are looking a little confused as they wonder where their coastline has gone. Wedged between major powers and with no immediate means of escape over the ocean, Navarra will be a very challenging nation in 1.28.

New releasable nations:

Valencia: The Kingdom of Valencia was a major constituent part of the Crown of Aragon in 1444. In 1.28 the former kingdom of El Cid will be a releasable nation.

Asturias: The Kingdom of Asturias ceased to exist long before our start date, but it nicely fills the absence of releasable nations in the region.

morocco_map.png


I’ve also taken another look at North Africa. Here we can see several new provinces along the coast, including those belonging to new nations that can emerge during the game.

The province of Demnate allows a route through the Atlas mountains; a convenient shortcut and potentially a deadly choke-point.

The Canary Islands have been split between Gran Canaria and Tenerife to represent the somewhat incomplete Castilian conquest and colonization of the islands.

For the masochists among you who play as Granada, they now have a core on the province on Ceuta.

New releasable nations:

Salé and Tétouan: Home to some of the most infamous Barbary Pirates, these nations will be releasable in 1444, and may emerge dynamically in the course of the game in the style of Habsan.

fezzan_map.png


Finally, I’ve made some minor changes to the eastern Maghreb. The province of Kairwan has been added for Tunis, and the addition of Sabha has allowed a more aesthetic redrawing of Fezzan’s borders.

That’s all for today. Next week, @Groogy will reveal some of the new features coming in the as yet unnamed Immersion pack to be released alongside 1.28.
 
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Well, let's see if Paradox Devs are reading are comments and taking them into consideration. Perhaps there are a few surprises for us:D
I haven't given up my claims for more provinces in Iberia yet;)
 
Regarding the new Kingdom of Valencia, i must keep insisting that it has to have it own culture. It just doesn't make any sense that catalans have more dev than Bohemia or Burgundy (without PUs) now that they will have +3 new provinces.
I really don't get what you are comparing now - the provinces with Catalan culture to the countries of Burgundy and Bohemia? How does that make sense?
If you were trying to compare Catalan culture to Czech and Burgundian culture, well:
  • Czech culture has 95 dev
  • Burgundian culture has 119 dev
  • Catalan culture as of right now has 84 dev
It is quite safe to assume that some of the dev for the new Catalan is to be split off from the existing ones - I would be surprised if the patch adds more than 5 dev. Hence, the Catalan provinces will still have less development than the Czech provinces, much less than the Burgundian ones, and also less than the Portuguese provinces (115 currently, probably more in 1.28), the Andalusian provinces (90 currently, more in 1.28) or the Castilian provinces (114 currently, more in 1.28).
There is no gameplay or game balance argument for splitting Catalan culture.
 
One more time.. and same post.. Porto (as our second city) shouldn't be in the border with Spain, Braga/Guimarães are in the border.. not Porto. Lisbon wasn't that easy to reach and conquer... Elvas, called as the "Kingdom's Key" should fall first to open the path to Lisbon, and even that wasn't easy.. the Tejo River and some fortifications along it, made it always hard.. in the game, when we conquer Évora, "we are in Lisbon"... Peace of cake!... I think that 15 provinces are enough for Portugal.. One more time, if the DEV's found 13 provinces in Ireland (I'm not saying that's wrong) why not 15 in Portugal? When Portugal is even bigger then an "unified" Ireland?... When it comes about products in these provinces, in my opinion, it could be:
1- Braga - wool or wine
2- Vila Real - wool or wine
3- Bragança - wine
4- Porto - wine
5- Coimbra - grain or wine
6- Guarda/Castelo Branco - grain or wine
7- Aveiro - grain or fish
8- Leiria - grain; fish or naval equipments
9- Santarém - grain or wine
10- Évora - (keep) wine
11- Elvas - (local defensiveness) wine, cattle or grain
12- Lisboa - (keep) fish
13- Setúbal - salt, fish or wine (salt would be be a nice choice, from the roman times, salt was produced in this region and in Algarve too, In Setúbal District there's a city called Alcácer do Sal, founded by the romans)
14- Beja - (keep) cattle
15- Algarve - fish or salt
And of course, If AZORES are portuguese islands and are controlled by Portugal, it should be called Açores (portuguese) not Azores (English).. Açores and Madeira, nothing to change about its products. Another thing about the "seas". Pls, Gulf of Cadiz doesn't bath Alentejo (Beja) and never baths Lisbon.. that sea must be "Southern Lusitanian Sea", Gulf of Cadiz can bath the eastern coast of Algarve but... just the eastern part.
One more time, hope this post is helpfull and see it as an opinion..
 

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RIP Navarra :(
I hope that at least they will rework Navarra's traditions:

Traditions:
+20%
Naval force limit modifier
−20% Light ship cost

I find the landlocking of Navarra mostly disappointing too. It was a fun nation to play with reasonable difficulty. Now it's really the Prince of Viana motto: utrimque roditur! (they gnaw us from everywhere!)
 
Will development in Granada be boosted? It was one of the most populated cities at the time. It would give a Granada player some boosts and make it more challenging for Castile to annex it.
 
I really don't get what you are comparing now - the provinces with Catalan culture to the countries of Burgundy and Bohemia? How does that make sense?
If you were trying to compare Catalan culture to Czech and Burgundian culture, well:
  • Czech culture has 95 dev
  • Burgundian culture has 119 dev
  • Catalan culture as of right now has 84 dev
It is quite safe to assume that some of the dev for the new Catalan is to be split off from the existing ones - I would be surprised if the patch adds more than 5 dev. Hence, the Catalan provinces will still have less development than the Czech provinces, much less than the Burgundian ones, and also less than the Portuguese provinces (115 currently, probably more in 1.28), the Andalusian provinces (90 currently, more in 1.28) or the Castilian provinces (114 currently, more in 1.28).
There is no gameplay or game balance argument for splitting Catalan culture.

Apart from the fact that Catalonia wasnt populated enough to justify them rivaling Czech, Castilian or Portuguese in terms of dev and that moriscos still lived on Valencia (around 1/3 of the population), and the fact that Valencians never (and never is never) considered themselves catalans, i dont see why they should stay catalans. The fact that the actual Catalans claim Valencia to be part if his lands doesnt make them magically Catalán.

Gameplay wise, It would avoid the tipical situation that happens when France takes rousillon, create Catalonia there and just feeds them later the entire eastern spanish coastline + Baleares practically for free just a war later. And that happens a lot on mp games.

Considering that they said that the dev on entire peninsula gonna be increased around 10%, wont be surprising that if Valencia remains catalán, they will be easily almost 100 dev (probably even over 100).
 
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@RodDel

I noticed reading further on. Let me vow to you and all your companions for your efforts on listening to the grumpy spanish comunity. If i am not too late, ill try to contribute some data that could be interesting to the discussion. I could show you some maps of the eu4 timeframe, but I'm not sure if they could be of any use. Like another member (can't remember his name) said, perhaps going for a 6-7 provinces region on Galicia would be a good idea, since it really was one of the richest regions of Spain up until XVIII century. Cartagena as a little province could also be a good idea. Antequera could be a good province for Andalucía, since it was a really important city and the neuralgic center of the region (resuming, as important as, per example, Cordoba, Sevilla or Cadiz, excluding the sea oportunities the last two had of course). Thats all what I can contribute for at the moment. I can not back them up with any data as I am bussy, so you would have to "trust" me there.

I'll keep an eye on you guys for the next DD, which I guess it won't be related to the map, so give it all the possible love while you can ;)

PD: Kind of thought about Antequera, and the more i think about it, the more you should include it. Personally, of course.

PD2: I'll back it up with data (regarding Antequera) on the weekend if you are interested, but it is a really interesting province that could provide you some good events on spanish culture and arts.
 
I am one of those people that seek as much as nations for detailed gameplay and I somewhat feel like this discussion is gonna be about balance of colonization. Its very nice stepping stone for players to colonize so I feel like you find enough reasons to justify this as opm. Castille was meant to conquer it so for historical reasons, it might be just better to create a nation.
Dears @neondt and @RodDel,

First of all, thank you very much to listen the users and to do the changes in the peninsula.

Although there are pending things in the peninsula, there is one thing that I believe is the MOST IMPORTANT for the historical development of the region.

I see that the Canary Islands have been divided in two, separating the province of Tenerife. This is a great idea and it is historical: Tenerife was conquered by the Catholic Kings, between the years 1494 and 1496. I say well: conquered. Tenerife was inhabited by the Guanches. The Guanche people were a Berber people of pagan religion and tribal organization. Although it was divided into several tribes, I think it is important to establish an independent duchy called: Guanche. Otherwise, Tenerife will be colonized by Portugal in all the games in 1460 and Castile will not be able to conquer Tenerife.

Please take this suggestion into account and establish the independent dukedom Guanche, of Berber culture and pagan religion, so that it can be conquered by Castile in 1494 and not colonized by Portugal in 1460. This would be profoundly ahistorical.

I add bibliography. I can also provide names of Guanche leaders and governors, in case you consider and implement this duchy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife#Spanish_conquest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aguere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Acentejo


Thank you very much and best regards.
 
You're right, but this did not happen. Well, in truth, the right of conquest of the Canary Islands was for Portugal for 52 days. Pope Eugenius IV declared the bull "Romanus Pontifex" granting Portugal the conquest of the Canary Islands. However, after the Castilian pressure, claiming his right as successor to the old Visigothic kingdom, he repealed that bull and signed the bull "Romani Pontificis", finally granting possession of the Canary Islands to Castile, in 1436.

http://www.historiadeiberiavieja.co...eval/cuando-islas-canarias-fueron-portuguesas (translate please)

For that reason, when Enrique the Navigator wanted to establish a portugese possession in the Canaries, he asked the King of Castile for permission. Permission that was denied.

It is true that Portugal maintained the dispute until the Treaty of Alcazobas of 1479 was signed, where the distribution of the African coast was established.

In my opinion, it would be perfect if in Tenerife there was an independent dukedom Guanche, of Berber culture and animist religion.

And, if Castile and Portugal enter into war before of 1480, as a peace treaty, through an event, the issue could be discussed and the distribution of the Atlantic possessions distributed: Azores, Madeira, Canary Islands and the other provinces that Portugal or Castille have (Cape Verde, Arguin, Guinea, etc)

This would be fantastic. In that negotiation, one could pass from PU between Porgual and Castilla (Castilla as minor), to Portugal losing all its oceanic possessions. The intermediate point would be the historical treaty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Castilian_Succession

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Alcáçovas

Would it be possible, @neondt and @RodDel ?

Definitely agree on this! The War of the Castilian Succession and Treaty of Alcáçovas would tie in nicely to add some flavor, similar to what I mentioned earlier on adding some events specifically around Charles II at a later date.

There's some events, but these have a huge MTTH (see https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Spanish_events#The_Portuguese_Crown for ex). I think the events related to the the War of Castilian Succession could happen through an approach similar to the War of the Roses events for England?

Regarding my earlier comments about Olivença - events pertaining to it could be tied in to a creation of a province referencing the city of Elvas - it was referred to as "The key to the kingdom of Portugal", and it is actually one of the largest fortified cities in Europe wikipedia offers some insight - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_of_Elvas - the city exists since Moorish occupation and its fortifications have been relevant for centuries, having been well maintained - here's a current photo of the city:

upload_2018-10-11_8-23-20.png


From my perspective, which seems to be a perspective shared among many - Portugal definitely needs some re-work in terms of province placement/flavor plus the unrealistic portrayal of the terrain in Spain/Granada.

Also enjoyed the previous comments about the Canary Islands!

There are some changes in terms of map design that I think that are important: the aforementioned addition of Portuguese provinces, consequent balance on Spain and Aragon while I also agree on giving higher development of the provinces that Granada has - should display the relevance that the country and area had back then, perhaps if such development could be added in an "indirect way", through events?

Although not as "big" as the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans, I'd suggest some similar events (as those that exist toward the Ottoman Empire conquering Constantinople) adding benefits to whomever from the Iberian Peninsula conquers Granada - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granada_War#Last_stand_at_Granada - sort of making Granada the islamic version of Byzantium in EU4, from a gameplay perspective (well, it was after all a great cultural and technological centre, definitely would be a great parallelism comparing the scenarios of Byzantium/Granada from a Christian/Islamic perspective).

I think this would be a great direction!!
 
Definitely agree on this! The War of the Castilian Succession and Treaty of Alcáçovas would tie in nicely to add some flavor, similar to what I mentioned earlier on adding some events specifically around Charles II at a later date.

There's some events, but these have a huge MTTH (see https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Spanish_events#The_Portuguese_Crown for ex). I think the events related to the the War of Castilian Succession could happen through an approach similar to the War of the Roses events for England?

Regarding my earlier comments about Olivença - events pertaining to it could be tied in to a creation of a province referencing the city of Elvas - it was referred to as "The key to the kingdom of Portugal", and it is actually one of the largest fortified cities in Europe wikipedia offers some insight - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_of_Elvas - the city exists since Moorish occupation and its fortifications have been relevant for centuries, having been well maintained - here's a current photo of the city:

View attachment 410104

From my perspective, which seems to be a perspective shared among many - Portugal definitely needs some re-work in terms of province placement/flavor plus the unrealistic portrayal of the terrain in Spain/Granada.

Also enjoyed the previous comments about the Canary Islands!

There are some changes in terms of map design that I think that are important: the aforementioned addition of Portuguese provinces, consequent balance on Spain and Aragon while I also agree on giving higher development of the provinces that Granada has - should display the relevance that the country and area had back then, perhaps if such development could be added in an "indirect way", through events?

Although not as "big" as the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans, I'd suggest some similar events (as those that exist toward the Ottoman Empire conquering Constantinople) adding benefits to whomever from the Iberian Peninsula conquers Granada - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granada_War#Last_stand_at_Granada - sort of making Granada the islamic version of Byzantium in EU4, from a gameplay perspective (well, it was after all a great cultural and technological centre, definitely would be a great parallelism comparing the scenarios of Byzantium/Granada from a Christian/Islamic perspective).

I think this would be a great direction!!

Beautiful walls. I'll visit this next time I go to Portugalll

About Granada. The devs already said there are some surprises coming about Granada but I think we can all agree they deserve higher development. Some of Spain's greatest minds came out from the different taifas: Averroes, Maslama, Abenarabi, Azarquiel, Abulcasis and many more. But all of that cultural boiling pot had it's highest dimension in Andalucia and Granada should have a higher development than the game represents. Even today you can visit buildings from the time and they are amazing.

PS.: I don´t know why but on my last games with Castille, neutral Portugal would always get on my way while conquering Granada and Tanger and steal some provinces :mad: That is not cool Portugal
 
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Paradox managed to make a critical error in this map : Lleida is in Catalonia, not Aragon...
How is that possible ?
 
Non-releaseable nations will have its unique missions? I would like to see an implemented option to start as non-released nation without playing as a released nation and then released because I'm tempted to destroy my economy and then free a nation to play. :D
 
One more time.. and same post.. Porto (as our second city) shouldn't be in the border with Spain, Braga/Guimarães are in the border.. not Porto. Lisbon wasn't that easy to reach and conquer... Elvas, called as the "Kingdom's Key" should fall first to open the path to Lisbon, and even that wasn't easy.. the Tejo River and some fortifications along it, made it always hard.. in the game, when we conquer Évora, "we are in Lisbon"... Peace of cake!... I think that 15 provinces are enough for Portugal.. One more time, if the DEV's found 13 provinces in Ireland (I'm not saying that's wrong) why not 15 in Portugal? When Portugal is even bigger then an "unified" Ireland?... When it comes about products in these provinces, in my opinion, it could be:
1- Braga - wool or wine
2- Vila Real - wool or wine
3- Bragança - wine
4- Porto - wine
5- Coimbra - grain or wine
6- Guarda/Castelo Branco - grain or wine
7- Aveiro - grain or fish
8- Leiria - grain; fish or naval equipments
9- Santarém - grain or wine
10- Évora - (keep) wine
11- Elvas - (local defensiveness) wine, cattle or grain
12- Lisboa - (keep) fish
13- Setúbal - salt, fish or wine (salt would be be a nice choice, from the roman times, salt was produced in this region and in Algarve too, In Setúbal District there's a city called Alcácer do Sal, founded by the romans)
14- Beja - (keep) cattle
15- Algarve - fish or salt
And of course, If AZORES are portuguese islands and are controlled by Portugal, it should be called Açores (portuguese) not Azores (English).. Açores and Madeira, nothing to change about its products. Another thing about the "seas". Pls, Gulf of Cadiz doesn't bath Alentejo (Beja) and never baths Lisbon.. that sea must be "Southern Lusitanian Sea", Gulf of Cadiz can bath the eastern coast of Algarve but... just the eastern part.
One more time, hope this post is helpfull and see it as an opinion..
Way too many provinces! And too small too.
 
Dears @neondt and @RodDel,

First of all, thank you very much to listen the users and to do the changes in the peninsula.

Although there are pending things in the peninsula, there is one thing that I believe is the MOST IMPORTANT for the historical development of the region.

I see that the Canary Islands have been divided in two, separating the province of Tenerife. This is a great idea and it is historical: Tenerife was conquered by the Catholic Kings, between the years 1494 and 1496. I say well: conquered. Tenerife was inhabited by the Guanches. The Guanche people were a Berber people of pagan religion and tribal organization. Although it was divided into several tribes, I think it is important to establish an independent duchy called: Guanche. Otherwise, Tenerife will be colonized by Portugal in all the games in 1460 and Castile will not be able to conquer Tenerife.

Please take this suggestion into account and establish the independent dukedom Guanche, of Berber culture and pagan religion, so that it can be conquered by Castile in 1494 and not colonized by Portugal in 1460. This would be profoundly ahistorical.

I add bibliography. I can also provide names of Guanche leaders and governors, in case you consider and implement this duchy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife#Spanish_conquest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aguere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Acentejo


Thank you very much and best regards.

This. Will do for historical acuraccy and balance (because otherwise Portugal will get Tenerife almost always). Hope devs see this thread.
 
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