EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

[Mik_C]

Gameplay wise, It would avoid the tipical situation that happens when France takes rousillon, create Catalonia there and just feeds them later the entire eastern spanish coastline + Baleares practically for free just a war later. And that happens a lot on mp games.

As I understand, the case of both regions sharing the same culture does not mean that Catalonia will have cores on all the provinces so, if any country releases Catalonia the reconquest causus belli will only have free the other 4 core provinces. It would need to pay diplo points for the other provinces and Catalonia will need to create the cores. In terms of coring duration, if each area had its own culture it will have the same duration because they would be in the same culture group (if I had understand the wiki correctly).

Apart from the fact that Catalonia wasnt populated enough to justify them rivaling Czech, Castilian or Portuguese in terms of dev and that moriscos still lived on Valencia (around 1/3 of the population), and the fact that Valencians never (and never is never) considered themselves catalans, i dont see why they should stay catalans. The fact that the actual Catalans claim Valencia to be part if his lands doesnt make them magically Catalán.

I checked the culture wiki page and unfortunately it does not explain what makes a culture be a culture in the game, if there is an official criteria I would appreciate if someone can explain it. (A bit off the topic, I found there a note regarding culture groups that makes me understand why basque is in the in the Iberian culture group: "Note that culture groups are not just based on linguistic criteria - for example, Romanian is grouped with the Carpathian cultures due to cultural similarities and for gameplay purposes, even though Carpathian is not a linguistic family.").

Personaly, I consider the culture to be very similar in both areas (and also in the baleares), so it makes sense to be the same culture for that. The issue is that there is not a common name to represent itself in the 3 areas and if one of the names is used it seems that it is trying to "eat" the other 2 (this section of article is a good reflection of the situation, where they have used the 3 names at the same time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluricentric_language#Catalan–Valencian–Balearic ), so it will be difficult to use a name that satisfies everyone in any case.

What I think that is necessary is to reflex the complex organization of the crown of Aragon.
* One option could be having Catalonia, Valencia and Majorca as personal unions as someone has proposed in a post, because historically each area had autonomy (see the last paragraph of the context section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon#Context ), but that would need to apply also to Sardinia and Sicily and its too much unbalanced. Also, we have to consider that at the start of the game Catalonia, Valencia and Majorca were in Aragon since 200-300 years.

* The option that I like the most is having provincial modifiers in the areas that reflex the Catalonian, Valencian and Majorcan self-governments inside Aragon and Spain later on if there is an Iberian Wedding. A similar modifier could also be used in Navarra once it is incorporated or conquered. As it is explained in the las paragraph of the section expansion ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon#Expansion ) this self-government was used to reduce the influence of nobles and make the people of the areas more loyal, so the effects could be reduced influence of the noble estate per area, less taxes and manpower, negative unrest and block the possibility of the core to disappear. This could also be complemented with flavour events that could make the people angry (unrest or instant revolts in each area) or the opposite.

---
The Iberian Revolts event could have a rework with different outcomes and something like the Danzig event where it becomes a vassal of Poland but with Catalonia (republic) becoming a vassal of France. Also, considering the second option to reflex the autonomy of certain areas their loyalty towards Spain should impact on triggering the event.

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

Not sure if serious here. Including Grenade, Castille with this update will have double the provinces of Aragón in the Iberia region. 32 to 16. Many of them also with higher development than the Aragonese ones (as it should be). I also don´t really know what eliminating Rioja would do to solve your apparent issues with how few provinces Castile has given that it's a Castilian province.

Sorry I have to say this but the way I see it is that you are very happy with the current situation because Castille is underrepresented.
If not, then I don't see the reason why you don't understand the need for Guadalajara and/or Segovia. Naranjito posted some books in previous posts that are very englightening and he even made the effort to compare the ingame development of Iberia with the UK, Burgundy and some other countries

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

Things can change again until the release it. I don't see why it should be 28 provinces and not 29 or 30 if those provinces were relevant throughout history and yeah this is a game but it's a historical game and it would be a shame if Segovia or Guadalajara are left out while having Gibraltar whose only purpose (it seems) is being able to choose a specific start.

I think you are grossly undervaluing the importance of Gibraltar. It has always been a key strategic point in the Peninsula, the gateway to the Mediterranean and North Africa. Its control was crucial for the several waves of invasion of the Moors, it was considered by Portugal as a potential conquest before Castile took it definitively (in fact, when the expedition to take Ceuta was being organised, the Portuguese spread rumours that their real target was Gibraltar so that the Muslims concentrated their defenses there), and of course it has been a vital component of British naval strategy and power projection in the Mediterranean. It would be a huge mistake imho to leave out Gibraltar out of the game.

 

[tommassi]

Sorry I have to say this but the way I see it is that you are very happy with the current situation because Castille is underrepresented.

LOL.

 

[Naranjito]

I think you are grossly undervaluing the importance of Gibraltar. It has always been a key strategic point in the Peninsula, the gateway to the Mediterranean and North Africa. Its control was crucial for the several waves of invasion of the Moors, it was considered by Portugal as a potential conquest before Castile took it definitively (in fact, when the expedition to take Ceuta was being organised, the Portuguese spread rumours that their real target was Gibraltar so that the Muslims concentrated their defenses there), and of course it has been a vital component of British naval strategy and power projection in the Mediterranean. It would be a huge mistake imho to leave out Gibraltar out of the game.

Gibraltar and Rosellon are for what they are.

No more no less.

If Rosellon today was Catalonia, Catalonia would have 4 provinces, Gerona and Rosellon would be 1. Because Rosellon in the game has more development than Burgos or Valladolid, was a minor miniprovincia on the other side of the Pyrenees where lived 4 cats.

And Gibraltar, if it were not English, would not exist, it would be Cadiz.

It's a fucking rock, which was very easy to defend and see what comes from Africa. But neither population nor commerce nor anything. You need boats to control the Mediterranean. For England it was a military base, because it was very difficult to assault it if it was well guarded. In the game they are for historical reasons not of importance.

if they were Spanish they would not be.

 

[tommassi]

But they aren't, and there are good historical and gameplay reasons to have them there.

 

[Naranjito]

But they aren't, and there are good historical and gameplay reasons to have them there.

Very good.

And there are also good historical and gameplay reasons for the appearance of Segovia, Guadalajara and Extremadura with three provinces.

There are also good historical reasons and gameplay for Castilla is well represented, and not represented as if it were 2018.

Since that were not important Segovia, Guadalajara and Extremadura, we talked about 1450-1600 not 2018.

Ibiza, really? Xativa? What was there in Lleida?

 

[navaluiki]

But they aren't, and there are good historical and gameplay reasons to have them there.

And I also think there are good historical and gameplay reasons to have more provinces in Iberia, specially in Central Spain and Portugal, the regions that IMO haven't received enough attention on this patch

 

[tommassi]

And there are also good historical and gameplay reasons for the appearance of Segovia, Guadalajara and Extremadura with three provinces.

There are even better reasons to include Medina del Campo and I'm not seeing you ask for that. As for the reasons I've read for those three: sorry, having a nice, old city centre full of monuments doesn't really count as one.

Castile, as in proper Castile, not including Leon, Asturias or Andalucia, now has 11 provinces in the game: Cantabria, Burgos, Palencia, Valladolid, Rioja, Soria, Ávila, Madrid, Cuenca, La Mancha and Albacete. I would need very good reasons to be convinced that you need more than that to reflect the situation and evolution of Castille from 1450 to 1800.

Since you want to discuss the relevance of provinces already in game, Soria and Cuenca are two good places to start. Next in line is Ávila.

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

I think you are grossly undervaluing the importance of Gibraltar. It has always been a key strategic point in the Peninsula, the gateway to the Mediterranean and North Africa. Its control was crucial for the several waves of invasion of the Moors, it was considered by Portugal as a potential conquest before Castile took it definitively (in fact, when the expedition to take Ceuta was being organised, the Portuguese spread rumours that their real target was Gibraltar so that the Muslims concentrated their defenses there), and of course it has been a vital component of British naval strategy and power projection in the Mediterranean. It would be a huge mistake imho to leave out Gibraltar out of the game.

You replied yourself. It was important from a military point of view. Should we add a province for each strategic spot? No, normally we just add some modifier to the province if the spot was very important.
The story you mention is very interesting and I didn't know it but it doesn't justify making Gibraltar a province. However I find start game in 1700+ a good reason to have Gibraltar in the game. I don't want them to delete it, I just think that if there is a limit to the number of provinces that avoids Segovia or other important province to be represented them I'd rather have that and not Gibraltar.

Btw I failed to find information about Gibraltar population, governors, etc while Granada existed. If anybody has it I'd love to read it

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

There are even better reasons to include Medina del Campo and I'm not seeing you ask for that. As for the reasons I've read for those three: sorry, having a nice, old city centre full of monuments doesn't really count as one.

Castile, as in proper Castile, not including Leon, Asturias or Andalucia, now has 11 provinces in the game: Cantabria, Burgos, Palencia, Valladolid, Rioja, Soria, Ávila, Madrid, Cuenca, La Mancha and Albacete. I would need very good reasons to be convinced that you need more than that to reflect the situation and evolution of Castille from 1450 to 1800.

Since you want to discuss the relevance of provinces already in game, Soria and Cuenca are two good places to start. Next in line is Ávila.

Medina del Campo should be represented, we've been asking for that in previous posts. It got lost afterwards but yeah

Again you oversimplify other people's message. It wasn't just the monuments and pretty city center man check the data it has been posted here

 

[Naranjito]

There are even better reasons to include Medina del Campo and I'm not seeing you ask for that. As for the reasons I've read for those three: sorry, having a nice, old city centre full of monuments doesn't really count as one.

Castile, as in proper Castile, not including Leon, Asturias or Andalucia, now has 11 provinces in the game: Cantabria, Burgos, Palencia, Valladolid, Rioja, Soria, Ávila, Madrid, Cuenca, La Mancha and Albacete. I would need very good reasons to be convinced that you need more than that to reflect the situation and evolution of Castille from 1450 to 1800.

Since you want to discuss the relevance of provinces already in game, Soria and Cuenca are two good places to start. Next in line is Ávila.

Castilla as a castilla has 200,000 km2.

Tremendous 14 provinces.

I prefer to debate because they are Xativa, Alicante, Urgell, Gerona and Tarragona, which were not important in 1450-1600 or in 1800.

They were never important in this game.

And a rather small territory, 32,000 km2 Catalonia and 22,000 km2 Valencia.

I believe that the fans of the Catalan countries, your game is Victoria 2, not this one.

This is for the Castilians, and the one who does not think the same as he reads books.

 

[Thevow]

Adding to my previous posts and concerns about Portugal, I just had a jump at one of the Dev Diaries for Rule Brittania (here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-16th-of-january-2018.1065283/) - and... I don't know :

"In the 1.25 update we hope to better show how the various minor states in Ireland thrived as English rule grew weaker and weaker. We hope the new setup will better show how diverse the Island was and offer the player to lead one of the many clans or earldoms of Ireland to perhaps put up a stronger resistance to the English threat or fail and at best hope to rule as an English vassal." - the Immersion pack for the British Islands, rightfully took the time and placed effort toward portraying "many clams or earldosm of Ireland to perhaps put up a stronger resistance to the English threat", in all fairness, with the map that has been presented, I sincerely fail to see the same dedication and effort placed toward Portugal, a country that wasn't a push-over toward any of the Iberian countries...

" In the South two provinces have been carved out to show that the Anglo-Scottish border is in fact not flat and hard to defend. The addition of the West and East March provinces instead allows Scotland to fight an invader before they reach the farmlands around the capital
The Highlands have also been broken up, ensuring that a resurgent Highlander kingdom will be stronger and stand a better chance of surviving." - Several provinces were added and "broken up" to ensure that the "kingdom will be stronger and stand a better chance of surviving", Portugal has to this day remained independent and was solely occupied once by the combined forces of Napoleonic France and Spain (although France+Spain failed at their first attempt) - this in spite of being one of the oldest countries in Europe. How is a country like Scotland made more difficult to invade/easier to defend, while a country like Portugal is so fragile?

"While England was updated once before after release we felt that it was simply not up to date with regions like Denmark or Germany, and that it was too easy to overrun the island of Great Britain for a naval invader." - How is it "too easy"? I've never seen the AI do this, while in fact Portugal gets pounded into dust most of the time - while realistically, it was a really tough bone to chew (as mentioned before) - I fail to see the same concern being dedicated toward Portugal, given that its a country that is simply too simple to conquer by either sea or land - something that is far from what happened historically.

If invading Great Britain was/is "too easy" then invading Portugal is a EU4 tutorial on forts and how to move troops.

After reading the aforementioned Dev Diary, I'm even more confused with what was shown to us map-wise, there was so much dedication placed on the British Islands (not to mention France and the Low Countries), that I fail to see why Iberia isn't being given such attention, at least from a comparable point in the Dev Diary stage.

I really hope this gets reviewed...

 

[Naranjito]

Adding to my previous posts and concerns about Portugal, I just had a jump at one of the Dev Diaries for Rule Brittania (here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-16th-of-january-2018.1065283/) - and... I don't know :

"In the 1.25 update we hope to better show how the various minor states in Ireland thrived as English rule grew weaker and weaker. We hope the new setup will better show how diverse the Island was and offer the player to lead one of the many clans or earldoms of Ireland to perhaps put up a stronger resistance to the English threat or fail and at best hope to rule as an English vassal." - the Immersion pack for the British Islands, rightfully took the time and placed effort toward portraying "many clams or earldosm of Ireland to perhaps put up a stronger resistance to the English threat", in all fairness, with the map that has been presented, I sincerely fail to see the same dedication and effort placed toward Portugal, a country that wasn't a push-over toward any of the Iberian countries...

" In the South two provinces have been carved out to show that the Anglo-Scottish border is in fact not flat and hard to defend. The addition of the West and East March provinces instead allows Scotland to fight an invader before they reach the farmlands around the capital
The Highlands have also been broken up, ensuring that a resurgent Highlander kingdom will be stronger and stand a better chance of surviving." - Several provinces were added and "broken up" to ensure that the "kingdom will be stronger and stand a better chance of surviving", Portugal has to this day remained independent and was solely occupied once by the combined forces of Napoleonic France and Spain (although France+Spain failed at their first attempt) - this in spite of being one of the oldest countries in Europe. How is a country like Scotland made more difficult to invade/easier to defend, while a country like Portugal is so fragile?

"While England was updated once before after release we felt that it was simply not up to date with regions like Denmark or Germany, and that it was too easy to overrun the island of Great Britain for a naval invader." - How is it "too easy"? I've never seen the AI do this, while in fact Portugal gets pounded into dust most of the time - while realistically, it was a really tough bone to chew (as mentioned before) - I fail to see the same concern being dedicated toward Portugal, given that its a country that is simply too simple to conquer by either sea or land - something that is far from what happened historically.

If invading Great Britain was/is "too easy" then invading Portugal is a EU4 tutorial on forts and how to move troops.

After reading the aforementioned Dev Diary, I'm even more confused with what was shown to us map-wise, there was so much dedication placed on the British Islands (not to mention France and the Low Countries), that I fail to see why Iberia isn't being given such attention, at least from a comparable point in the Dev Diary stage.

I really hope this gets reviewed...

That was your mistake, not having been invaded by England.

Then you would have 15-20 provinces.

You would have more provinces through history, with 50 years of English or French possession, you would have your rosellon, your Gibraltar, your Irish mini-provinces ...



Ironic mode

 

[navaluiki]

When taking a look at the population of Spain on the 15th Century it is very clear that Central Spain is quite underrepresented.
As I wrote at my thread, the population of Extremadura was ~ 380 000 and only has 2 provinces ingame while Catalonia with 300 000 has 5, Valencia with 255 000 has 4 and Aragon with 200 000 has 4 too. Besides the Kingdom of Toledo (a.k.a. as Castilla La Nueva, New Castille) had 762 000 inhabitants and just 5 provinces.
Central Spain definitely deserves more attention

 

[Bizkit II]

When taking a look at the population of Spain on the 15th Century it is very clear that Central Spain is quite underrepresented.
As I wrote at my thread, the population of Extremadura was ~ 380 000 and only has 2 provinces ingame while Catalonia with 300 000 has 5, Valencia with 255 000 has 4 and Aragon with 200 000 has 4 too. Besides the Kingdom of Toledo (a.k.a. as Castilla La Nueva, New Castille) had 762 000 inhabitants and just 5 provinces.
Central Spain definitely deserves more attention

This

 

[KRBLACK]

@RodDel

I don't know if this has been asked before, but since the Maghrebi nations will be receiving map changes I am wondering whether they are part of the ''main'' focus for the Iberia patch.

The raid coasts mechanic introduced in Mare Nostrum has not been changed since its release, and in my opinion requires so much micromanagement the mechanic is really anti-fun. Are there any plans to revisit this mechanic in the next patch?

 

[Thevow]

That was your mistake, not having been invaded by England.

Then you would have 15-20 provinces.

You would have more provinces through history, with 50 years of English or French possession, you would have your rosellon, your Gibraltar, your Irish mini-provinces ...



Ironic mode

About those provinces...

 

[GeoHector]

I'll be happy if they just add Setúbal below Lisboa, Mérida between Cáceres and Badajoz and Guadalajara between Soria, Cuenca, Madrid and Toledo. I'd call it done.

@RodDel

I don't know if this has been asked before, but since the Maghrebi nations will be receiving map changes I am wondering whether they are part of the ''main'' focus for the Iberia patch.

The raid coasts mechanic introduced in Mare Nostrum has not been changed since its release, and in my opinion requires so much micromanagement the mechanic is really anti-fun. Are there any plans to revisit this mechanic in the next patch?

I think we can expect something in this regard since they added two new 'pirate' tags. Let's see what they come up with

 

[tommassi]

When taking a look at the population of Spain on the 15th Century it is very clear that Central Spain is quite underrepresented.
As I wrote at my thread, the population of Extremadura was ~ 380 000 and only has 2 provinces ingame while Catalonia with 300 000 has 5, Valencia with 255 000 has 4 and Aragon with 200 000 has 4 too. Besides the Kingdom of Toledo (a.k.a. as Castilla La Nueva, New Castille) had 762 000 inhabitants and just 5 provinces.
Central Spain definitely deserves more attention

The map needs to represent not just the situation in 1450, but all the way through to 1800. And you are also ignoring that not all provinces have the same development.

Central Spain, including Leon, and Extremadura, will have 16 provinces. I really don't see the issue here.