EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

[Live Fast Die Young]

Which is whyyyyy we need an Iberian tag

Would you also have a Germania tag for a post-Germany formable nation? Or a Galia tag for a post-France nation?

 

[Arbus]

Would you also have a Germania tag for a post Germany formable nation? Or a Galia tag for a post France nation? See where this is going?

No, because in that case you already have Brandenburg->Prussia->Germany.

But anyway, it's different. Imagine Prussia decided to call itself "Germany" before actually unifying Germany. Don't you see how that's a problem as well? The name "Germany" would become more and more associated with that state, and not with Germany as a whole.

Even in the cited case of Britain, they actually call themselves United Kingdom in order to include Great Britain + Ireland.

In the game it makes perfect sense to call Spain to the partial unification of the peninsula, since that's what historically happened, and it also makes sense to have an Iberia as an end tag, since that is a plausible outcome of a unification taking place in the later stages of the game.

Plus, it allows for more flags, more ideias, more late game goals, I see only advantages.

 

[El Overlord]

No, because in that case you already have Brandenburg->Prussia->Germany.

But anyway, it's different. Imagine Prussia decided to call itself "Germany" before actually unifying Germany. Don't you see how that's a problem as well? The name "Germany" would become more and more associated with that state, and not with Germany as a whole.

It is not necessary to imagine it.

Prussia called itself Germany before uniting all Germany.

Remember that Austria never joined Germany. Except in a certain time represented in hoi4.

 

[regne_valencia]

Which is whyyyyy we need an Iberian tag

After Hispania,the peninsula only was unificate under the same king one time,since 1580 to 1640,the name of that union was Spain and the flag was this

Problem of using coa as flags is that in the game coats are not dynamic like in real life,so imho better using flags,they are more static and accurate tan coa

 

[Naranjito]

On the debate in the Netherlands if the developers looked at the future or not, if they were strong already in 1444 or not.

They were above average in 1500, but their big, huge jump was between 1500 and 1600, and between 1600-1700.

 

[Arbus]

It is not necessary to imagine it.

Prussia called itself Germany before uniting all Germany.

Remember that Austria never joined Germany. Except in a certain time represented in hoi4.

If it had failed, if it had stayed as the German Confederation, that would become "our" idea of Germany. A future state uniting all germans would have to adopt a different name. They even changed the name in the HoI4 period to reflect that. Pretty much like the Great Britain -> United Kingdom idea.

My point is that names change their meaning over time based on the de facto political situation. Had the Iberian Union survived and the name of Spain would have also survived. As it didn't, any future viable solution to include all nations would need a different name.

 

[Van Kasten]

Yes

Apart from the ones in Maghreb and Iberia, will there be new National Ideas for other countries as well?

 

[Arbus]

After Hispania,the peninsula only was unificate under the same king one time,since 1580 to 1640,the name of that union was Spain and the flag was this

Problem of using coa as flags is that in the game coats are not dynamic like in real life,so imho better using flags,they are more static and accurate tan coa

So were Flandres and Naples called "Spain", anything owned by a state is that state, it doesn't mean it represents them.

About the Cross of Burgundy, that flag only exists because one specific dynasty took hold of Spain at that time. On the other hand, the CoA of the Iberian Kingdoms existed for centuries. I'd much rather have the later.

 

[regne_valencia]

I like more coa,the problem is that coa are dynamic and the game dont dont update them,flags are more static and more easy for the game to be the most historical possible

edit :One coat i desing my own

 

[CM_01]

Everyone is crazy about map changes....what i a really concerned about are: mission trees and some events.
Regarding mission trees i would like to have the iberian wedding as a mission rather than an randon event as someone suggestioned, and please add some HRE related events, a spanish king was emperor of the hre, you may have heard of him...Charles I or V depending on where you are at, and a spanish prince was emperor after him Ferdinand, so maybe reflect the imperial ambition in the mission tree when spain is formed?
For the events....please i played for a tremendous amount of hours and castile is one of my favorite nations to play with so i have a lot of time expended on them and i still have ever seen the event for isabel not even with the AI, the other one is the union with portugal wich i have never seen until now. And lastly its only me or the event for a habsburg in the throne is harder now? i played as both castile and austria and it didnt happened.

 

[El Overlord]

I like more coa,the problem is that coa are dynamic and the game dont dont update them,flags are more static and more easy for the game to be the most historical possible

edit :One coat i desing my own

It looks too much like the Franco dictatorship's banner, besides the "Rojigualda" (red, yellow, red) was chosen by contest by Carlos III de Borbon in 1785. Although it was really in the period after the decree of new plant that eliminated the internal borders between the different viceroyalties of peninsular Spain.

I would recommend removing the eagle of San Juan, along with the yoke and arrows of the Trastamara dynasty. And change the shield so that the shield of Portugal is the same size as the other kingdoms.

Something like that:

 

[navaluiki]

It looks too much like the Franco dictatorship's banner, besides the "Rojigualda" (red, yellow, red) was chosen by contest by Carlos III de Borbon in 1785. Although it was really in the period after the decree of new plant that eliminated the internal borders between the different viceroyalties of peninsular Spain.

I would recommend removing the eagle of San Juan, along with the yoke and arrows of the Trastamara dynasty. And change the shield so that the shield of Portugal is the same size as the other kingdoms.

Something like that:

Wow, I really like that coat.

 

[Arbus]

I like more coa,the problem is that coa are dynamic and the game dont dont update them,flags are more static and more easy for the game to be the most historical possible

The problem is that historical flags were:
1. In many cases non-existant
2. Dynastic flags
3. Naval and army flags were different
4. There were many unique and short lived flags

For these reasons, it is better to find something that represents the nation, instead of the dynasty. Luckily the Iberian Kingdoms have such "flags", since their unique CoA are among the oldest in Europe (arguably "Leon" was the first). For flavour and immersion I want to keep these CoAs as flags as much as possible.

About the lack of dynamic flags, one way around it is to have separate tags. That's one of the reasons why I defend that Castille+Portugal should give rise to an Alternative Spain with a different set of ideas and missions, and why I also defend an Iberian tag with its own ideas and missions, which could only be formed later in the game.

 

[Mik_C]

Valencia and Catalonia were quite diferent at the game start. Catalonia was liberated from muslim hands quite early, around early 800s. Valencia, on the contrary, wasnt fully liberated until 1238. Thats more than 400 years of difference of muslim rule over the territories, and obviously, the 200 years until the game start is not enough to "catalanize" a population that was protected by the "Fueros" stablished by the Aragonese King. While catalonians obviously had its rightfull weight on the valencian society, wasn't until early 1600, when the "moriscos" expulsion from Spain happened, when they would trully being the dominant culture.

Just saying that if u defend Leon having is own culture just because they may had a different language, maybe the 400 year gap of muslim rule difference between Catalonia and Valencia may be enough to consider them different.

If Valencian remains Catalan, their cores would inevitably dissapear. If catalan rebels spawn they would implant their cores on Valencia, wich would be ahistorical since the concept of "Catalan Countries (Catalonia, Valencia, and Baleares)", is a XIX Century concept, and is not well accepted on modern Valencia and Majorca. In fact, the actual catalonian separatists (at least the major part), already dropped the idea because it means a superiority of Catalonia over Valencia and Baleares, and that triggers hate.

I still think that it would be better if it was an unique culture (it does not need to be called catalan), but I see your point. The thing is that in Valencia there was a mix of the moriscos, aragonese and valencian-catalan, so the culture must be one of those (considering that the game only represents the majoritary culture), not a "culture that represents that there are multiple cultures there". A similar situation is in the Castilian kingdoms conquered in the same time (Sevilla, Cordoba, Jaen and Murcia), where the game reflects as majoritary culture andalusian (moriscos), not "a proportion of castilian and a proportion of andalusian". Also, it comes to my mind Algarve from Portugal (it was conquered in the XIII century too), but I don't know the proportions of population in any of these provinces.

Note that in my post I insisted in the fact that the cores should not disappear if there is a "fuero" active in the area (¿maybe implemented using something similar to pashas of the ottoman?) and also that rebels from one area should not go to the other ones nor create cores, at least until the end game or if some conditions are met. Also have in mind that what needs to be historical is the situation at the start of the game (cultures, cores, etc.), not what happens since that point, so I don't share the ahistorical argument for an hypothetical case.

Edit: To clarify:
* There should be the same culture
* I'm also agains rebels in any of the 3 areas going to the other ones and creating cores
* I think that should be avoided using a different mechanic than province culture

---

Please devs, consider implementing "fueros" as an area modifier.

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

The problem is that historical flags were:
1. In many cases non-existant
2. Dynastic flags
3. Naval and army flags were different
4. There were many unique and short lived flags

For these reasons, it is better to find something that represents the nation, instead of the dynasty. Luckily the Iberian Kingdoms have such "flags", since their unique CoA are among the oldest in Europe (arguably "Leon" was the first). For flavour and immersion I want to keep these CoAs as flags as much as possible.

About the lack of dynamic flags, one way around it is to have separate tags. That's one of the reasons why I defend that Castille+Portugal should give rise to an Alternative Spain with a different set of ideas and missions, and why I also defend an Iberian tag with its own ideas and missions, which could only be formed later in the game.

I agree, this addresses the main issue I have with the current set-up, that the only promotion available to Portugal does not represent it or its nuances at all. If anything it steers away from it. It's really not an outrageous idea for alternative unification to exist (perhaps even as a customization mechanic to also address the inherent nuances of Scotland forming GB or Brittany forming France or Austria forming Germany) in addition to a nationalism-era Iberia tag. Not sure why this is getting resistance.

This is why my initial proposition was even to just set up an HRE-like system. It would put aside the Iberia question, internalize the way Spain and the Iberian Union were formed and create a platform were the leading nation, whether it be Portugal, Castile/Leon, Aragon or even Granada, can impose its individual nuances on the greater whole and have to deal with the nuances of the lesser partners, as well as have unintegrated nations like an independent Portugal existing side by side with a united Spain.

 

[regne_valencia]

It looks too much like the Franco dictatorship's banner, besides the "Rojigualda" (red, yellow, red) was chosen by contest by Carlos III de Borbon in 1785. Although it was really in the period after the decree of new plant that eliminated the internal borders between the different viceroyalties of peninsular Spain.

I would recommend removing the eagle of San Juan, along with the yoke and arrows of the Trastamara dynasty. And change the shield so that the shield of Portugal is the same size as the other kingdoms.

Something like that:

The original tha i used to edit was this, the symbol in the middle is called "sagrado corazon de Jesus",i changed by Portugal shield in my design

Franco copy the eagle from catholic kings (Isabel and Fernando) coa

This is Juana and Felipe coa

Carlos V coa,he was the last king of Spain that used an eagle in his coa

Your design is good,i liked

 

[El Overlord]

Franco copy the eagle from catholic kings (Isabel and Fernando) coa

Your design is good,i liked

Yes, Franco took over the Eagle of San Juan among other things. But even being historical symbols, I do not like that a hypothetical Spanish flag for EU4 remember the Spanish flag of the Franco dictatorship. I think there are less controversial options.

The image is not of own design. It is an image that I found on the internet that shows how I would like the shield of a Spain that unify all the Iberian kingdoms, it does not have to be exactly like the shield of the image.

The idea is the "Rojigualda" with a shield of that style.

 

[Anarchya]

Mmm something that happened in history... why not the: UNITED KINGDOM OF PORTUGAL ALGARVE AND BRASIL? B) O Reino Unido de Portugal, Algarve e Brasil ihihihihihih the Colony of Brasil would extinguished (did I write it correctly? Hope so.. XD ) a new flag, and would be the white one, with the portuguese crown over the armilar sephere and then the portuguese shield over the sephere... the players (if playing Portugal ofc) could chose form it or not.. or do it in time, maybe after the 1780/90 or/and reached a specific adm level. Players could control the brazilian provinces as they do with the portuguese ones in europe, africa or asia.. moving capital could be allowed too to the brazilian territory

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

Yes, Franco took over the Eagle of San Juan among other things. But even being historical symbols, I do not like that a hypothetical Spanish flag for EU4 remember the Spanish flag of the Franco dictatorship. I think there are less controversial options.

The image is not of own design. It is an image that I found on the internet that shows how I would like the shield of a Spain that unify all the Iberian kingdoms, it does not have to be exactly like the shield of the image.

The idea is the "Rojigualda" with a shield of that style.

I see nothing wrong with the eagle. Actually it's cool.

It's cool, and it's historical. Yes it resembles the flag of the dictatorship, so? Everybody knows he copied it from the Catholic Kings. And if someone doesn't know then they will know thanks to the game. People doesn't need to be so afraid of Franco anymore he is dead. He is history. Don't let him win and steal symbols that belong to all of us.

I wouldn't mind having the eagle although I think it's not important anyway. I'm just saying that the reason for not having it shouldn't be Franco. There should be a better rrason

 

[frivolity]

To respond to all the people using population as the basis for adding/deleting provinces: If we followed that train of logic to the end, then all of Siberia should be one massive province because no one lived there. Same with most of North America. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The number of provinces a region gets should be based on a mixture of factors: gameplay, strategic depth, historical power/potential etc. Raw population only tells a small part of the story.