EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

[Mingmung]

To respond to all the people using population as the basis for adding/deleting provinces: If we followed that train of logic to the end, then all of Siberia should be one massive province because no one lived there. Same with most of North America. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The number of provinces a region gets should be based on a mixture of factors: gameplay, strategic depth, historical power/potential etc. Raw population only tells a small part of the story.

I would normally agree, but regions like Extremadura and central Castille are clearly based off modern-day Spain, not the situation during most of EU4.

I really understand why people want a little bit more provinces in the regions mentioned above (so, provinces like Plasencia, Segovia and Guadalajara), as well as a more defined Portugal (Aveiro makes absolutely zero sense in this context; there are bigger fish to fry in that area).

 

[Geofferic]

I'm gonna respectfully disagree with the Navarre map decision. While it does reflect the political borders of 1444 and beyond, it does not reflect the real world reality of the time period. The game's mechanics don't allow for Navarrese ships to be built and ported in the Bay of Txingudi, and there's no reason to believe that Navarrese traders had no access to this bay.

For example, sailed fishing vessels navigated the river from well inside Navarre. While at the lowest spring tide there are fords 4 feet deep, even in spring those same fords rise to 18 feet at high tide.

While ideally the game would have some locations where only trading vessels and galleys could birth, and it makes sense that Navarre could not properly field larger sailing ships, with the current mechanics of the game I feel it is unduly harsh to prevent Navarre from having trade ship access to the Bay of Biscay. It essentially crushes the already fragile economy of Navarre, which does not seem historically reasonable to me.

 

[Geofferic]

To respond to all the people using population as the basis for adding/deleting provinces: If we followed that train of logic to the end, then all of Siberia should be one massive province because no one lived there. Same with most of North America. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The number of provinces a region gets should be based on a mixture of factors: gameplay, strategic depth, historical power/potential etc. Raw population only tells a small part of the story.

The guiding principle should be economic and population potential, and not really anything else.

 

[Mingmung]

Oof, I'm halfway fact-checking the cities of the Maghreb, but it isn't looking pretty... The province-density is good, the names too, only the placement is horribly wrong.

Disclaimer that most of the Maghreb has been 'wrong' since Art of War came out. This patch only comes with a few new provinces in this region.

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

The guiding principle should be economic and population potential, and not really anything else.

I'm not sure I agree entirely, EU4 is a game, not a history documentary, and a game focused primarily on war in fact. The map should, hopefully within historical and geographic constraints, attempt to create fun strategic gameplay. So I am perfectly fine if the borders of provinces are drawn in a way that makes for interesting fort placements or army manoeuvring, even if those borders do not correspond exactly to historical administrative divisions. Same thing if priority is given to adding a coastal province that might have been slightly less important than some other one inland, because the extra naval forcelimit might help make the country more balanced, or vice-versa, for example. Ideally one will find a way of doing both, that is respecting history while trying to enhance gameplay.

The Iberian peninsula is in dire need of many more provinces to make the game there more interesting in my opinion (more than the devs are adding in the update shown so far), but thought should be given to how exactly those new provinces will impact the play, and not simply go down a list of which cities and towns had the greatest historical potential in 1444. That's why I argue that Lisbon should be at least two provinces away from the border so that reaching it from Spain is something that requires a bit more effort, or that Badajoz should be split so that a fort there does not neighbour one in Toledo. And it just so happens that there are good historical and geographic reasons to make those happen too.

 

[Colleoni]

I bet Paradox won't bother with it as it's very minor, but there's a bunch of interesting things to be done in the Canarias, like:

-Creating a 'Kingdom of Canarias' in Gran Canaria under king Maciot de Bethencourt that is a vassal of Castille.
-As follow up of the previous one, creating a chain of events regarding Portuguese-Castillian relations and claims over the islands, or even the seeling of the islands by Maciot to Portugal in 1448 (and the events that ensued).
-Creating a native 'Menceyato Guanche' in Tenerife that keeps Portugal from just straight up colonizing it and forces a war or has its own events to conquer it. I think this would be a more historical option, as the royal conquest of the largest islands took several years and bloodly battles.
-Given how each of the Baleares has been considered its own province, it wouldn't be that weird to separate the Canarias in four: Eastern Canarias, Gran Canaria, Tenerife, Western Canarias. That would give space for a more historical approach (both Eastern and Western Canarias being in the hands of Castille or the Kingdom of Canarias in 1444, while the two major islands are yet to be conquered) and more Canarias based events regarding natives and Portugal-Castille relations.

As I said... they probably won't bother with it, but i think the century-long conquest of the islands would give quite a lot of space for fun events. Their trade importance as a base towards both America and Africa should also go up as the game progresses.

 

[Zerodv]

I'm not sure I agree entirely, EU4 is a game, not a history documentary, and a game focused primarily on war in fact. The map should, hopefully within historical and geographic constraints, attempt to create fun strategic gameplay. So I am perfectly fine if the borders of provinces are drawn in a way that makes for interesting fort placements or army manoeuvring, even if those borders do not correspond exactly to historical administrative divisions. Same thing if priority is given to adding a coastal province that might have been slightly less important than some other one inland, because the extra naval forcelimit might help make the country more balanced, or vice-versa, for example. Ideally one will find a way of doing both, that is respecting history while trying to enhance gameplay.

The Iberian peninsula is in dire need of many more provinces to make the game there more interesting in my opinion (more than the devs are adding in the update shown so far), but thought should be given to how exactly those new provinces will impact the play, and not simply go down a list of which cities and towns had the greatest historical potential in 1444. That's why I argue that Lisbon should be at least two provinces away from the border so that reaching it from Spain is something that requires a bit more effort, or that Badajoz should be split so that a fort there does not neighbour one in Toledo. And it just so happens that there are good historical and geographic reasons to make those happen too.

If we use the warfare argument, Portugal provinces are more than enough.

 

[Franciscus123]

If we use the warfare argument, Portugal provinces are more than enough.

And why is that?

 

[Aramenian]

I bet Paradox won't bother with it as it's very minor, but there's a bunch of interesting things to be done in the Canarias, like:

-Creating a 'Kingdom of Canarias' in Gran Canaria under king Maciot de Bethencourt that is a vassal of Castille.
-As follow up of the previous one, creating a chain of events regarding Portuguese-Castillian relations and claims over the islands, or even the seeling of the islands by Maciot to Portugal in 1448 (and the events that ensued).
-Creating a native 'Menceyato Guanche' in Tenerife that keeps Portugal from just straight up colonizing it and forces a war or has its own events to conquer it. I think this would be a more historical option, as the royal conquest of the largest islands took several years and bloodly battles.
-Given how each of the Baleares has been considered its own province, it wouldn't be that weird to separate the Canarias in four: Eastern Canarias, Gran Canaria, Tenerife, Western Canarias. That would give space for a more historical approach (both Eastern and Western Canarias being in the hands of Castille or the Kingdom of Canarias in 1444, while the two major islands are yet to be conquered) and more Canarias based events regarding natives and Portugal-Castille relations.

As I said... they probably won't bother with it, but i think the century-long conquest of the islands would give quite a lot of space for fun events. Their trade importance as a base towards both America and Africa should also go up as the game progresses.

Gran Canaria was not owned by either the kingdom of castile or the Kingdom of Canarias in 1444, owned by the Kingdom of Canarias were the islands of Lanzarote and Fuerteventura

 

[Colleoni]

Gran Canaria was not owned by either the kingdom of castile or the Kingdom of Canarias in 1444, owned by the Kingdom of Canarias were the islands of Lanzarote and Fuerteventura

I'm aware, therefore my last proposal to switch the division to 4 provinces rather than 2.

 

[Pablogamonal]

Looks amazing

 

[Aramenian]

I'm aware, therefore my last proposal to switch the division to 4 provinces rather than 2.

as to the division of the Canary Islands into four provinces, I agree with this, I have made a new proposal to divide the islands
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...slands-and-the-tribe-of-the-guanches.1123364/

 

[Zerodv]

And why is that?

Because between 1444 and 1820 Portuguese mainland soil wasn't exactly at the center of that many conflicts(like 5-6?) and I'm not sure why Portugal need to be able to grind down armies, this isn't 17th century Italy or Netherlands.

 

[Geverk]

About the Canary islands and macaronesia, I'm happy to see the division in two, I like the suggestion of @Aramenian of 3 provinces, (not the 4) but I understand the 2 province it's in order to keep balance in game with other nations.

I do not understand those who complain, (mostly from portugal flag players) . The macaronesia 3 million people is divided in 2 millions in the Canary, half million in Cape Verde and other half million in between Azores and Madeira. This division let 2 provinces to Gastille and portugal so now it's more fair for Castille, since the Canary should have more weight than other island there. you can also compare the land area, much more bigger from the 700km2 of Madeira to the 2000 km2 of Tenerife. just checking the largest of each kingdom.

check on wikipedia: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaronesia
sorry to use the spanish one but the is no this complete data in english or portuguese


I see that many people have mention also about not a colonization but a conquest for tenerife. hard to agree, of course at that time the process wasn't called colonization and it was called conquest, but for the purpose of this game, it was a colonization, since castilla didn't take any city and put his flag over. They just build cities and force the local people to convert. (there was no cities to take since this islands was poorly developed with people unable of sealing living in islands that can see each other... )

I will suggest any case make a system to make it easier to castile the colonization, like a "tordesilla" agreement granteen canary to Castille and Azores to Portugal, that make sense since the claims over the islands was already approved by the Pope.

Also to try to keep in a historical way, Tenerife wasn't colonize until the end conquest of Granada and the discover of "the new way to Indias" when Castille has troops and interest to take all the islands. So it can have a strong and aggressive local population that force the colonizer to have a strong army there to protect the colony, and at the with the conquest of Granada mision get and important bonus on the colonization of Tenerife and a extra colonist in this province, that can't be used at any other location. (or any other mechanic since this colonization was kind of quick after 1492)

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

Because between 1444 and 1820 Portuguese mainland soil wasn't exactly at the center of that many conflicts(like 5-6?) and I'm not sure why Portugal need to be able to grind down armies, this isn't 17th century Italy or Netherlands.

The history of Portuguese resistance against invasions in its Iberian territory is entirely about grinding down armies. The Portuguese Succession Crisis of the 14th century, the War of Restoration and especially the Fantastic/Ghost War of 1760s were all about Portugal using its terrain to outmaneuver, trap, guerrilla against or grind to a halt the invasions of Castillian, Spanish and French forces. Everytime Portugal ignored this aspect of its defences or it somehow did not factor in, it lost the conflict at hand (War of Oranges and the 16th Century War of Sucession).

The territory never survived solely on the virtue of the country's army size.

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

Also to try to keep in a historical way, Tenerife wasn't colonize until the end conquest of Granada and the discover of "the new way to Indias" when Castille has troops and interest to take all the islands. So it can have a strong and aggressive local population that force the colonizer to have a strong army there to protect the colony, and at the with the conquest of Granada mision get and important bonus on the colonization of Tenerife and a extra colonist in this province, that can't be used at any other location. (or any other mechanic since this colonization was kind of quick after 1492)

Castile could get an event to spawn a colony there (if there isn't one there already) with, say, 500 pop already so that it would finish quickly even without a colonist. There are already random events of this sort so it shouldn't be too hard to add. Could be one of the rewards for the discovering the Caribbean mission.

The history of Portuguese resistance against invasions in its Iberian territory is entirely about grinding down armies. The Portuguese Succession Crisis of the 14th century, the War of Restoration and especially the Fantastic/Ghost War of 1760s were all about Portugal using its terrain to outmaneuver, trap, guerrilla against or grind to a halt the invasions of Castillian, Spanish and French forces. Everytime Portugal ignored this aspect of its defences or it somehow did not factor in, it lost the conflict at hand (War of Oranges and the 16th Century War of Sucession). The territory never survived solely on the virtue of the country's army size.

Even in the Peninsular war, it was the use of the terrain that made the Lines of Torres Vedras so formidable. The Lines would obviously correspond in EU4 to building a level 4 fort in Lisbon, but that would be adjacent to the fort in Evora (which makes sense, it is the crucial fortress of Elvas) and so from a gameplay perspective it is discouraged.

 

[Sukramo]

I bet Paradox won't bother with it as it's very minor, but there's a bunch of interesting things to be done in the Canarias, like:

-Creating a 'Kingdom of Canarias' in Gran Canaria under king Maciot de Bethencourt that is a vassal of Castille.
-As follow up of the previous one, creating a chain of events regarding Portuguese-Castillian relations and claims over the islands, or even the seeling of the islands by Maciot to Portugal in 1448 (and the events that ensued).
-Creating a native 'Menceyato Guanche' in Tenerife that keeps Portugal from just straight up colonizing it and forces a war or has its own events to conquer it. I think this would be a more historical option, as the royal conquest of the largest islands took several years and bloodly battles.
-Given how each of the Baleares has been considered its own province, it wouldn't be that weird to separate the Canarias in four: Eastern Canarias, Gran Canaria, Tenerife, Western Canarias. That would give space for a more historical approach (both Eastern and Western Canarias being in the hands of Castille or the Kingdom of Canarias in 1444, while the two major islands are yet to be conquered) and more Canarias based events regarding natives and Portugal-Castille relations.

As I said... they probably won't bother with it, but i think the century-long conquest of the islands would give quite a lot of space for fun events. Their trade importance as a base towards both America and Africa should also go up as the game progresses.

Maciot de Bethencourt died in 1425 so no dice. Atleast one source puts in at 1454 though. And one source puts his death at 1422. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jean-de-Bethencourt

 

[Franciscus123]

Because between 1444 and 1820 Portuguese mainland soil wasn't exactly at the center of that many conflicts(like 5-6?) and I'm not sure why Portugal need to be able to grind down armies, this isn't 17th century Italy or Netherlands.

You clearly are not familiar with Portuguese history. The sole reason Portugal was not conquered outright by much larger forces was it ability to use the terrain to whittle down much larger armies and to turn its population against the invader - getting to Lisbon should not be as easy as it is, there were forts in both the southern approach through the Alentejo (Olivenca, Elvas, etc), which was a bad way to go anyway as it would put any invading army facing the Tagus, and in the Northern approach - , Santarem, Almeida, etc. Not to mention the hills in the Beira region and Tras os Montes. Portugal had a very efficient system of border fortifications.

Edit: Wellington's campaigns are a good example of this.

 

[tommassi]

You clearly are not familiar with Portuguese history. The sole reason Portugal was not conquered outright by much larger forces was it ability to use the terrain to whittle down much larger armies and to turn its population against the invader - getting to Lisbon should not be as easy as it is, there were forts in both the southern approach through the Alentejo, which was a bad way to go anyway as it would put any invading army facing the Tagus, and in the Northern approach - Elvas, Santarem, Almeida, etc. Not to mention the hills in the Beira region and Tras os Montes.

Well, let's be fully honest here: the sole reason Portugal was not conquered outright by whoever is that pretty much nobody, except in very specific occasions, had any interest in doing so since the late 1600s. And even then, it wasn't realy conquest that was the goal of the very few invasions that Portugal has suffered.

 

[Franciscus123]

Well, let's be fully honest here: the sole reason Portugal was not conquered outright by whoever is that pretty much nobody, except in very specific occasions, had any interest in doing so since the late 1600s. And even then, it wasn't realy conquest that was the goal of the very few invasions that Portugal has suffered.

After the late 1600s you mean? Well, you have Napoleon's Continental Blockade system which Portugal abandoned, the fact that Lisbon was still one the biggest cities in Iberia, or the huge inflows of gold after the 1690s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Gold). Also the control of strategic trade routes and the fact Portugal still maintained one of the largest trading fleets in the world. I am pretty sure if the opportunity presented itself, either Spain or France (or even England) would have been all too happy to integrate Portugal and its resources into their realms. But maybe I fail to see you point.