Europa Universalis IV - Development Diary 7th of February 2023 - Russia

[Romanix90]

I'm not sure it's clear to you that an empire can claim whatever it wants in regards to its subjugated people and it doesn't make it true. "Little Russian" is a pejorative term, and the languages are not the same.

It would be like if the Iberian union had lasted and the Spanish Empire claimed Portugal to be little spaniards, and their language just a dialect of spanish/castillian.

Let me put you like this. After the Russian revolution, when bolsheviks took power in Russia, there were many refugees that came in newly formed Yugoslavia. Most of the refugees were supporters of the white army or were military personel. To cut the long story short most of them come from modern teritory of Ukraine and they identified themselves as Russians or Little Russians. No Ukraininans and that term was unknown to my people in that time. But lets go further than WW1, lets go into history of Kievan Rus. In all written documents and diplomatic relations that Kievan Rus had with its neighbours they identified their state as Kievan Rus and its inhabitans called themselves Rus. Again no mentioning of Ukrainians. It was from Kievan Rus that many smaller Russian states came, especially after Mongols destroyed Kievan Rus. Do you follow the patern here. So people who founded Muscovy were descendands of those from Kievan Rus, colonists basically. And suddenly it seams that those from Kievan Rus became different thanks to Mongol conquest while those in smaller Russian states remained the same. That is why Kiev is considered to be the mother of all Russian cities and from where Russian culture, civilization and language begun. Also Little Russians accepted Russian empire as their state in the same maner RE accepted them and even considered them the same as Russians. And like i said before in those times language that Little Russians used was considered dialect of Russian and that is why that language was accepted. The same goes for Byelorussians. Byelorussians = White Russians.

 

[The Tsar]

Rus =/= Russian

What was the difference in that time?

 

[Romanix90]

What was the difference in that time?

There is no difference.

 

[santali]

I'm not sure it's clear to you that an empire can claim whatever it wants in regards to its subjugated people and it doesn't make it true. "Little Russian" is a pejorative term, and the languages are not the same.

It would be like if the Iberian union had lasted and the Spanish Empire claimed Portugal to be little spaniards, and their language just a dialect of spanish/castillian.

Absolute nonsense. Maloros was never meant as a pejorative. The history and origin of this term is clear. Just like the name "Rossiya" it's Greek, has to do with the structure of the orthodox church and is meant in the same way as Greater and Lesser Greece in antiquity. Unlike some posters on the forum who keep refering to the subjects of the Russian Tsardom/Empire as "Muscovites" (a term that nobody ever used to refer to themselves), which is a transparent attempt to introduce into English the modern Ukrainian pejorative of moscal.

The whole talk of Russification, or any -fication for that matter in the EU4 time period is pure fantasy, since it is an age before mass literacy and mass compulsory education, and whatever changes happenned to the ethnic makeup the world, did so through sheer numbers and demographic pressure.

 

[Romanix90]

You seem to be misinterpreting my comment. I've never claimed the word "ukrainian" existed at the time.

I am just making it clear that the people and language of what was called "Ruthenia" at the time was not one and the same with the people and language of the core lands of the Russian empire. They were related, of course, but they were not the same, nor is one a dialect of the other.

Yes, the people in Ruthenia accepted the Russian empire as their nation, that doesn't make them literally the same as people from other parts of the Russian empire, do you understand what I'm saying? Norwegians and Swedes are closely related, but they are not one and the same, even though both could have lived in the same empire, and both could be citizens. I'm just saying they are not "the same people".

Besides clarify what I meant to both you and the person above, I won't engage anymore as I feel we are straying from the topic of discussion.

And this is where we disagree. You claim they are different, i claim they are exact same. So the best thing for both of us is to simply move on. I accept your views and accept that they're different than mine and hope that you can do the same. It's better this way than to have endles arguments between both of us where you'll have your stance and i'll have mine. Cheers.

 

[FishieFan]

Because they are separate to this day?

But ruthenian in eu4 covers far more than what ukraine would start with as a socialist republic

I think that there should be slightly more content associated with Russian conquest of Caucasus and Central Asia.


• Russian conquest of Caucasus was a long, bloody and complicated process, which envolved peoples of different cultures and religions. The same goes for Central Asia (in fact Khiva and Bukhara were protectorates, with Russification introduced only after revolution). It would be nice to see new events and cultures in those regions.

Its eu4, conquest is simple as being sub 100 WS sadly

 

[FishieFan]

Why only Sarai gets Yoke modifier? Muscovy was paying tribute to Crimea up to the 17th century. Crimeans literary burned Moscow in 1571.

Better shown as war reps than actual tribute

 

[FishieFan]

Ruthenian - yes, Russian - no. The russification of Kyiv by Muscovy was fierce and brutal with burning books and language suppression.

Russoficiation of kyiv didnt see book burning or language suppression, just the dialect of the literarti being taught over common vernacular

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

Why would bylerusian and ruthenian be not included?

The fact that they would develop separate national identities from the "unified Russian" "culture" is strong enough reason. However, there is an argument to be had considering that during this time such national identity didn't exist, but we could imagine a world in which a leader from Kyiv/Kiev comes to unify Ruthenia or Belarus and forges a separate cultural identity from Moscow or Novgorod.

That being said, a "Russian" culture that unifies Muscovite, Ryazanian, and Novgorodian into a Russian culture would be a great idea. Could even make it a decision that costs stability, administrative and diplomatic points and is called "Standardize the Russian Language"

 

[Romanix90]

That being said, a "Russian" culture that unifies Muscovite, Ryazanian, and Novgorodian into a Russian culture would be a great idea. Could even make it a decision that costs stability, administrative and diplomatic points and is called "Standardize the Russian Language"

I like the idea "Standardize the Russian Language".

 

[ADV. S. SEPVLCHRI]

What was the difference in that time?

Because Rus in the EU4 timeframe is long gone.
I think we all can agree that Roman =/= Italian. And Spain, France, Portugal etc. can all claim to be descendants of Romans but no one ever tried to say that they were the true Rome and needed to subjugate the rest.
Thus, after the fall of Rus, it was split into several states that existed separately for hundreds of years and developed their languages and traditions separately. I'm not speaking of Ruthenian or Belarusian cultures but of Novgorodian, Ryazanian, etc. Novgorod existed apart from Muscovy and had its differences that could've evolved more if not for the Muscovite subjugation of them in 1478. So there is no point in mushing all the cultures as people here suggested and calling all of them Russian or reestablishing the Rus.

 

[Port.Sacral]

Because Rus in the EU4 timeframe is long gone.
I think we all can agree that Roman =/= Italian. And Spain, France, Portugal etc. can all claim to be descendants of Romans but no one ever tried to say that they were the true Rome and needed to subjugate the rest.
Thus, after the fall of Rus, it was split into several states that existed separately for hundreds of years and developed their languages and traditions separately. I'm not speaking of Ruthenian or Belarusian cultures but of Novgorodian, Ryazanian, etc. Novgorod existed apart from Muscovy and had its differences that could've evolved more if not for the Muscovite subjugation of them in 1478. So there is no point in mushing all the cultures as people here suggested and calling all of them Russian or reestablishing the Rus.

If Moscovy didn't subjected Novgorod it could've evolved more. But Moscovy did. So it's logical to add a decision to unite moscovite, novgorodian and ryazanian to russian culture. It's what happened in real history. Paradox could add a decision that makes it free choice of the player to do so or not.

 

[ADV. S. SEPVLCHRI]

If Moscovy didn't subjected Novgorod it could've evolved more. But Moscovy did. So it's logical to add a decision to unite moscovite, novgorodian and ryazanian to russian culture. It's what happened in real history. Paradox could add a decision that makes it free choice of the player to do so or not.

My point is that it is already established enough to be separate culture, and there is no way something will be able to unite them in one click.
And to be fair, Uniting Mongol, Manchu and Japanese cultures is a bad idea either. In the time of no one established literary language and broad lands with the fastest connection being the horse (in Mongolia's case), the differences in cultures will be more than enough to not cramp them all together.
What we will have next? Combine all German cultures into one "German"? Or maybe There should be only French and Occitan cultures in France? No Tuscan, Lombardian, or Romagnan cultures?

I mean there is the reason why the "Diverge culture" decision in CK3 is celebrated as one of the best features implemented. And in the EU4 Abilutist timescale, any way of changing culture should be a long-time effort like it is now with "convert culture" and not some magic button.

 

[Port.Sacral]

My point is that it is already established enough to be separate culture, and there is no way something will be able to unite them in one click.
And to be fair, Uniting Mongol, Manchu and Japanese cultures is a bad idea either. In the time of no one established literary language and broad lands with the fastest connection being the horse (in Mongolia's case), the differences in cultures will be more than enough to not cramp them all together.
What we will have next? Combine all German cultures into one "German"? Or maybe There should be only French and Occitan cultures in France? No Tuscan, Lombardian, or Romagnan cultures?

I mean there is the reason why the "Diverge culture" decision in CK3 is celebrated as one of the best features implemented. And in the EU4 Abilutist timescale, any way of changing culture should be a long-time effort like it is now with "convert culture" and not some magic button.

Yeah, the point with german cultures I understand. And with french it's not necessary because French is already the primary culture of France. But to found Russia and not have russian as primary culture is unsatisfying. A compromise could be that moscovite changes to russian and novgorodian and ryazanian remain untouched. But Japan is one of the most homogeneous People in the world. To split Japan into three different cultures was a silly idea to begin with.

Edit: If Novgorod founds Russia, it would of course be novgorodian which changes to russian.

Edit 2: And the manchurian ruler Nurhaci officially changed the Name of his people from Jurchen to Manchu after the unification of the jurchen tribes. To implement this in the game is only logical.

 

[ADV. S. SEPVLCHRI]

Yeah, the point with german cultures I understand. And with french it's not necessary because French is already the primary culture of France. But to found Russia and not have russian as primary culture is unsatisfying. A compromise could be that moscovite changes to russian and novgorodian and ryazanian remain untouched. But Japan is one of the most homogeneous People in the world. To split Japan into three different cultures was a silly idea to begin with.

Edit: If Novgorod founds Russia, it would of course be novgorodian which changes to russian.

Edit 2: And the manchurian ruler Nurhaci officially changed the Name of his people from Jurchen to Manchu after the unification of the jurchen tribes. To implement this in the game is only logical.

How you can understand my point about German culture but not understand about Russian? They are the same. Russia in the game is Title, same as Britain, Bharat, Spain, etc.
Forming Britain doesn't spawn British culture, and forming Spain doesn't spawn Spanish, I don't see why forming Russia should somehow spawn Russian.
I see what you are trying to say, and may agree that the culture that creates the title, should have their culture name renamed to Russian, i.e. Muscovite to Russian or Novgorodian to Russian, and the same may apply for other countries, i.e. Castillian culture becoming Spanish. But I still think it's a bit controversial, and respectfully disagree that all the other related cultures should be absorbed into it. By the way, what will happen with those cultures if they will be outside the borders of a Newly formed country? For example Pskov with the Novgorodian culture that remained Independent? Why would independent Pskov change the name of their culture as their neighbour?

I think Manchu is more of an exception. As it was just on paper that all the people became the same.

And the Japanese are very homogenous now, but how do we know about 1444? And what about the Ainu? Or the Ryukyu? And Japan lies on a large island with different climates and natural backgrounds, all of which make people adapt, thus making them different. And Sengoku period won't help the cultural assimilation and unification. We can easily open the map of Japanese dialects and see the division into Western, Eastern and Kyushu groups. Add to that Religious practices that are different across the archipelago, art, cuisine, etc and you will see different cultures within one culture group.

Not to mention that the term "Yamato" for all Japanese cultures as a collective term is a product of 19th-century scientific racism, and we shouldn't really step in that direction in the game.

 

[Fediuld76]

Privet! Welcome to this week’s Dev Diary, which is all about Russia. The last time Russia saw any big changes was with the release of “Third Rome” in 1.22 and the addition of their mission tree in 1.26. Ever since not a lot has happened there. 1.35 will change this as we are revisiting this region and updating it so it can keep up with Scandinavia, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Ottomans.

Have you considered to change the Russia colour from that green it has?
Why? Because when taking over Ottoman lands, the two colours are indistinguishable and have to hover every time to see which areas occupying or not.
Consider it to be darker green at least.
Thanks.

 

[Port.Sacral]

How you can understand my point about German culture but not understand about Russian? They are the same. Russia in the game is Title, same as Britain, Bharat, Spain, etc.
Forming Britain doesn't spawn British culture, and forming Spain doesn't spawn Spanish, I don't see why forming Russia should somehow spawn Russian.
I see what you are trying to say, and may agree that the culture that creates the title, should have their culture name renamed to Russian, i.e. Muscovite to Russian or Novgorodian to Russian, and the same may apply for other countries, i.e. Castillian culture becoming Spanish. But I still think it's a bit controversial, and respectfully disagree that all the other related cultures should be absorbed into it. By the way, what will happen with those cultures if they will be outside the borders of a Newly formed country? For example Pskov with the Novgorodian culture that remained Independent? Why would independent Pskov change the name of their culture as their neighbour?

I think Manchu is more of an exception. As it was just on paper that all the people became the same.

And the Japanese are very homogenous now, but how do we know about 1444? And what about the Ainu? Or the Ryukyu? And Japan lies on a large island with different climates and natural backgrounds, all of which make people adapt, thus making them different. And Sengoku period won't help the cultural assimilation and unification. We can easily open the map of Japanese dialects and see the division into Western, Eastern and Kyushu groups. Add to that Religious practices that are different across the archipelago, art, cuisine, etc and you will see different cultures within one culture group.

Not to mention that the term "Yamato" for all Japanese cultures as a collective term is a product of 19th-century scientific racism, and we shouldn't really step in that direction in the game.

I don't agree with you there. Even if you're right, and Japanese wasn't all that unitary (which it was, by the way, at least in the 15th Century), why shouldn't the player get the possibility to create a unified japanese culture if he would like to do so? And the Ainu weren't in any way included in my argument. They were and are different from Japanese. I meant the three japanese cultures Kyushuan, Saigoku and Togoku.

 

[Gouda_boy]

How you can understand my point about German culture but not understand about Russian? They are the same. Russia in the game is Title, same as Britain, Bharat, Spain, etc.
Forming Britain doesn't spawn British culture, and forming Spain doesn't spawn Spanish, I don't see why forming Russia should somehow spawn Russian.
I see what you are trying to say, and may agree that the culture that creates the title, should have their culture name renamed to Russian, i.e. Muscovite to Russian or Novgorodian to Russian, and the same may apply for other countries, i.e. Castillian culture becoming Spanish. But I still think it's a bit controversial, and respectfully disagree that all the other related cultures should be absorbed into it. By the way, what will happen with those cultures if they will be outside the borders of a Newly formed country? For example Pskov with the Novgorodian culture that remained Independent? Why would independent Pskov change the name of their culture as their neighbour?

Using British and Spanish aren't really the best cases for your argument as even today, unlike Russian, there is a strong distinction for both of these groups. Castillian IS Spanish. It just represents the specific Ibero-Romance language. Spaniards today speak Castilian Spanish. Aragonese, Galician, Catalan, etc. All the languages on the peninsula are still unique from each other and there wasn't really an aggressive approach to replacing the other languages until the 20th century (which backfired on them a fair bit). The UK is a formation of different historical Kingdoms, aka Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland, and ENGLAND, of which people today are still known as English. British itself serves only as a national identity, and does not serve as a basis for a language or ethnicity. However when you take a look at Russia, the Ethnic Identity, Language, the Land, is ALL known as Russian, mainly because of how the Russian Empire standardized it and began calling themselves (and their language) Russian and only Russian. There is no cultural distinction within recent History between Russians living in St. Petersburg and Arkhangelsk, Moscow, or Ryazan. Despite the distinctions that may have existed throughout earlier history, they were lost and melded together into a singular cultural sphere of Russian as the Empire gained influence, power, and greater levels of standardization. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing an absorbing German culture for the northern, low German cultures, but I feel the main reason "German" does not exist is more due to the fact that Germany didn't exist as an entity until outside the games timeframe. Lastly, I think it'd be totally fine with a "Standardize the Russian language" mission completion to only affect Owned provinces, so if Pskov at that moment is still independent, it would remain Novgorodian, as it wouldn't be affected by Russia's literacy/linguistic reforms

 

[Cuke]

If Moscovy didn't subjected Novgorod it could've evolved more. But Moscovy did. So it's logical to add a decision to unite moscovite, novgorodian and ryazanian to russian culture. It's what happened in real history. Paradox could add a decision that makes it free choice of the player to do so or not.

What's the point? Empires have the cultural union feature anyway, so for Russia there is no difference between muscovite and novgorodian. It would only affect any invaders (PC and AI alike) if they would want to accept the new culture (which, in turn, might screw up the balance among cultures).
And although I concede that if some people want a feature - they may have it, nevertheless I don't want an extra untaken decision clog my GUI.

 

[Port.Sacral]

What's the point? Empires have the cultural union feature anyway, so for Russia there is no difference between muscovite and novgorodian. It would only affect any invaders (PC and AI alike) if they would want to accept the new culture (which, in turn, might screw up the balance among cultures).
And although I concede that if some people want a feature - they may have it, nevertheless I don't want an extra untaken decision clog my GUI.

It's not about gameplay, at least in my case. It's about the cosmetics, if you want to say so. And one Decision more or less in the list, that's not really that problematic, isn't it? The notification you can turn off at least. So it shouldn't be inconvenient.