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HOI4 Dev Diary - Operatives and Missions

Hi everyone, today it's time to continue talking about espionage. We will be covering the stars and main resource - the Operatives.

Operatives are a new character type just like Admirals and Generals. But instead of leading armies of fleets they are used for 3 things. Defence of the homeland against foreign operatives, Missions and Operations (topic of its own diary).

Recruitment
Operatives are recruited from you Agency. The max amount you can have is dependent on the number of agency upgrades you have as well as if you are spy master or not. A spy master get access to a lot more operatives, depending on the size of their faction. A non spy master can still do things, but is a lot more limited due to this.

When recruiting you get to pick from 3 recruits (upgrades can increase this)
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Operatives start as recruits but can become full agents by gaining experience which will improve their abilities. There are various traits that can be gained when active as well as being possible from the start. Some are acquired from upgrades such as commando training in the agency. Sadly I didn't have art ready for traits, but here are a few examples we have:
Tough - will give up less intel if captured
Natural Orator - increased ability when it comes to diplomatic missions and creating collaboration regimes
Seducer - bonuses to missions and operations that require a soft touch (or whatever the enemy may be into)
Commando - bonuses to operations that require combat or stealthy infiltration
Double Agent -
a turned enemy agent will have bonuses to operate in their country of origin
Master Interrogator - Increases the capture chance of enemy operatives when working on counter intelligence.
As well as a bunch of other....

Operatives also have (at least one) nationality and will have a bonus to operating in their homeland. The Agency has some upgrades like Localized Training Centers that increases the chance of picking up agents that can pass as locals in foreign (including you enemies) nationalities. This is a mechanic that will be benefiting the Allies as operatives from German occupied areas can be recruited and sent back on missions where they will blend in easily.

Missions
Operatives can perform various missions on the map. The strength and impact of a mission generally depends on the size and strength of a network (more on those below).

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Counter intelligence - The default mission of an agent not doing anything else is to run Counter Intelligence in their home nation. This boosts the Counter Intelligence value for your nation and helps counter enemy spies.

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Build Network - The Operative will build a network of contacts in an area. Several operatives can help out either to expand the reach of the network or to build it faster. Networks have various passive effects:
  • Reduction of naval invasion penalty
  • Countering enemy dig in or planning bonus
  • Faster division planning when entering a network (based on the first enemy state on the path)
  • Improve intel advantage in combat locally (25%) (based on the intel ledger’s intel rework)
  • Gives static intel on the nation based on nation level strength. You will only get naval intel if the network encompasses ports, rest are even.
Networks target cities (VPs of particular size) and spread over an area. They can link up multiple operative's networks into larger ones. Here is an example of the British agents cooperating vs a single operative
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Here you can also notice "Sparrow" as the selected operative. Operatives have codenames of course (I had a lot of fun picking out swedish codenames)...

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Quiet Network - If you do not plan to make use a network right away you can place it in quiet mode. It will no longer give effects, but risk that any of your operatives are caught is now very tiny while still maintaining it. Perfect if you have prepared a large network for a future invasion, for example.

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Boost Ideology - This replaces the old diplo action as now your operatives will be able to affect the ideology of a target nation

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Propaganda - This mission is used to hurt a target nation stability and war support

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Root Out Resistance - Helps fight resistance

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Control Trade - Influence trade opinion by boosting yours and reducing enemies to give you a bigger piece of the the resources up for trade. If multiple nations are involved they cancel each other out, but it still limit 3rd parties.

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Diplomatic Pressure - Makes AI to want to accept only your faction, requires human players to have a higher tension/opinion level for joining other factions. If multiple nation’s Operatives are involved they cancel each other out, but it still limit 3rd parties. This can be pretty neat if you are competing with AI nations over where you want someone to join, as well as in multiplayer.

Defense
Operatives on counter-intelligence as mentioned above will help defend your nation together with the agencies base counter-intel value.
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This value affects how easily enemy agents can be discovered and stopped as well as how difficult it is to perform operations in your nation (see future diary). In this example there is a base value of 2 and the operatives add 3 together for a total of 5.

When an operative is discovered several things can happen:
Forced Underground or Injured - The operative had to abandon their work and lay low to avoid being captured. Any mission including networks will be on hold during this and networks will start to decay if no other agent is there
Captured - An operative captured by the enemy will be leaking intelligence to them and will eventually be killed (unless rescued). Operatives assigned suicide pills can also minimize the intel leaks here. Operatives who are caught also have a direct impact on their network as people working with them are assumed to have been captured along with them.

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Killed - In rare cases operatives may be killed in action leaving one of your slots empty where you will need to recruit a replacement.

The defensive game is mostly a passive affair for the defender as we were cautious of creating required micro, and by having a solid defense and capturing enemy operatives you might actually benefit a bit from the intel gathered on your enemies.

Thats it for this week. See you again next week!

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How is an operative rescued? Is it through a mission by other operatives?
Would be cool as a diplomatic option to swap captured operatives.
How is the rescue missions done? do you need the enemies to surrender or do you rescue them randomly when taking land from opponent? or is it a mission you send operators to do?
Its an operation. a thing we havent really talked about yet. Will be in a future diary.

This sounds like it could be incredibly powerful in MP if multiple people gang on germany for example. It will cripple production massively.
We have tried to build the system with this in mind as games where you can stack spies are seldom fun
- non-spy masters are likely going to sit on 2 spies if they try to do this, and you will need both to make a dent as Propaganda requires a big network to have good effect and the other spy is doing the actual propaganda work. Getting 2 spies will require industrial investment too so its not free.
- the mission itself is stacking penalized if multiple nations do it
- defense is not stacking penalized and is as effective no matter how many attackers there is. So in this case germany would be capturing and gaining intel from spies who put a lot of effort into something that wouldn't be a lot stronger than a single big nations effort.

I think it can be good in combination with other strategies but I think its a situation that resource wise very much benefits the defender side (e.g Germany)

So do ideologies get boosts/nerfs to their Espionage abilities? How is fascist-monarchist incompetence at Intel gathering/democratic adeptness at infiltration/communist proliferation of sympathizers going to be simulated?
The plan is to use ai strategy plans to have nations focus on different stuff


perhaps this is talked about earlier, operatives really really should have a (partially or completely) invisible loyalty value that is random for each unit. This will make you guess weather they double crossing you or not. Perhaps some traits like "xenophobic", or "super nationalistic", or just "loyal" would help us to know they are less likely to double cross but it could always be an option. Also make getting caught(before we know it) a loyalty check to see if they turn coat right away and so it never looks like they switched. Just a thought.

Thats pushing it into ck territory and HOI has always been a game where you can trust and rely on stuff you see so imo it wouldnt really fit into hoi4.

I don't really feel like that's a good excuse, I think its because they want the Soviet survival dependent on the Allied landings, which I don't agree with.
Let me remind that by the time the Allies landed in Europe, the USSR had already neutered Germany's offensive capabilities and pushed them back significantly.
Imo the Soviets should have at least a fair chance of survival and to form a stalemate without the allied landings.

Yes we want the soviets to depend on allied help to survive. Without that there is no reason for the allies to do anything in the game which doesnt make for a good game. And it is a game, not just a railroaded simulation. From a historical perspective I think the soviets would have been able to handle things, but it would have taken a lot longer and been a lot bloodier.

Straight pipes are for reserved for code breakers. Spies smoke filterless cigarettes.
the pipes might be guns tho
upload_2019-11-7_16-6-34.png
 
Its an operation. a thing we havent really talked about yet. Will be in a future diary.


We have tried to build the system with this in mind as games where you can stack spies are seldom fun
- non-spy masters are likely going to sit on 2 spies if they try to do this, and you will need both to make a dent as Propaganda requires a big network to have good effect and the other spy is doing the actual propaganda work. Getting 2 spies will require industrial investment too so its not free.
- the mission itself is stacking penalized if multiple nations do it
- defense is not stacking penalized and is as effective no matter how many attackers there is. So in this case germany would be capturing and gaining intel from spies who put a lot of effort into something that wouldn't be a lot stronger than a single big nations effort.

I think it can be good in combination with other strategies but I think its a situation that resource wise very much benefits the defender side (e.g Germany)


The plan is to use ai strategy plans to have nations focus on different stuff




Thats pushing it into ck territory and HOI has always been a game where you can trust and rely on stuff you see so imo it wouldnt really fit into hoi4.



Yes we want the soviets to depend on allied help to survive. Without that there is no reason for the allies to do anything in the game which doesnt make for a good game. And it is a game, not just a railroaded simulation. From a historical perspective I think the soviets would have been able to handle things, but it would have taken a lot longer and been a lot bloodier.


the pipes might be guns tho
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@podcat still no answer to how voluntary boosting will work? That's extremely important. Is it only possible with agents now, who could get killed or captured by your friends? How is positive voluntary boosting going to work? There are two different types...not just offensive involuntary boosting.
 
If I don't care at all about the Spies side of the game (missions, operatives, etc) will there be a way to let the AI handle it, maybe setting some guidelines on where it should focus the efforts?

Thanks,
 
Why wasn't this on "Home"?
 
@podcat still no answer to how voluntary boosting will work? That's extremely important. Is it only possible with agents now, who could get killed or captured by your friends? How is positive voluntary boosting going to work? There are two different types...not just offensive involuntary boosting.

yeah we havent got a solution but we have been discussing it. Maybe just a game setting for it because its not really intended gameplay ;)

If I don't care at all about the Spies side of the game (missions, operatives, etc) will there be a way to let the AI handle it, maybe setting some guidelines on where it should focus the efforts?

Thanks,
You can just put a little into defense and leave it to an ally to be spymaster
 
Also, I really like this. How generic will the names/portraits be? Will we be able to have most nations/cultures/languages/ethnicities/regions on the map be covered?
 
Will Nancy "The White Mouse" wake, be available for New Zealand as a operative or maybe free France?
Like you find her if you start building a network.

If anyone doesn't know who she was, then you really should learn about her(HERE), she was very influential in the French resistance.
 
Will Operatives from Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, SAU (Arabia) use portraits from different pools?
 
yeah we havent got a solution but we have been discussing it. Maybe just a game setting for it because its not really intended gameplay ;)


You can just put a little into defense and leave it to an ally to be spymaster
@podcat
Wait what? Thats not intended? But thats what everyone wants. Every time my group hosts we're bombarded with requests for boosting. It's a standard and expected feature of the game. I think paradox needs to get more in touch with their own game and the people who play it. Voluntary boosting is a part of every hoi4 session ive played in the 1000 hours I put in.

I seriously hope for the sake of all players expecting voluntary boosts this problem is considered and properly implemented.

In fact, the common ban is on INVOLUNTARY offensive boosting, NOT the other way around.

Edit: alternative history is a huge draw to this game. The potential to remake Byzantium, reform Austria-Hungary, swing USA fascist, turn Japan communist, and all these options are already in the game. They can't usually be accomplished quickly in a regular multiplayer game but many people wish for boosting to assist with these alternate history paths the game devs have actually put in the game...

Honestly I'm shocked it's "not intended" when every new focus tree gives you more and more options for alternative ideology...

Second edit: there is a simple sosolution---just make the pre-game rules more robust with more options so players can set the game up the way they want. Doesn't matter what the devs intended. Allow us the freedom to play how we want.

There is already a "boosting" rule but we never use it because there is no "voluntary boosting only" option. That's really the simplest fix.
 
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yeah we havent got a solution but we have been discussing it. Maybe just a game setting for it because its not really intended gameplay ;)
just make who ever has an advisor of that ideology (though this would require adding at least generic non-aligned advisors to minors) not capture or interfere with spies that are bosting that ideology
 
Yes we want the soviets to depend on allied help to survive. Without that there is no reason for the allies to do anything in the game which doesnt make for a good game. And it is a game, not just a railroaded simulation. From a historical perspective I think the soviets would have been able to handle things, but it would have taken a lot longer and been a lot bloodier.

I mostly agree, I also don't want the game to be a railroaded simulation.
I'm just saying the USSR should at least have a chance to achieve a stalemate and not simply guarantee die if the Allies fail the naval invasions, in this case the Allies job would be to crack into Germany, you know, be the responsible force for the start of the offensive.
I say this because I feel if the USSR survival (emphasize survival, not victory) is basically decided by the Allied landings, it makes the game too predicable, it peels off the veneer of uncertainty Barbarossa had if I'm making myself clear. I find this very important when I'm playing a minor involved in WWII, and I believe if you play as Germany you should have that extra "borrowed-time" type challenge into your campaign.

I mean, even though HoI4 is not a simulation it still draws its main beats from history right?
Just my thoughts, thanks for your answer.
 
From a historical perspective I think the soviets would have been able to handle things, but it would have taken a lot longer and been a lot bloodier.

From a historical perspective, I think the Soviets would have been able to cope without a second front, but I'm not sure the case on them coping without any Allied intervention at all (of course, Stalin would disagree post-war, even if he vehemently agreed during the war :) ). Both the strategic bombing offensive and the war in the Mediterranean drew a significant amount of Germany's airpower away from the Eastern front, and the impact of lend-lease was also very important at giving the Soviets the strategic and tactical mobility it needed to be able to counter German offensives, and then push back once they'd built up enough strength, as well as in supporting the Soviet aviation industry.

Had Britain made peace, and Germany and Italy not had to dedicate resources to the Battle of the Atlantic/naval war in the Med (while not widely mentioned, in net warship tonnage including submarines, in WW2 Germany commissioned more than Japan did), the Soviets could have been in a very tight spot indeed.

Not trying to be argumentative - more supporting the game's position that the Soviets shouldn't be able to roll Germany all by themselves. As always, just an opinion and I could be off, I'm nowhere near as well read on the Eastern Front as I am on things naval (and even then, I have gaps larger than a Yamato class BB).
 
@podcat
Wait what? Thats not intended? But thats what everyone wants. Every time my group hosts we're bombarded with requests for boosting. It's a standard and expected feature of the game. I think paradox needs to get more in touch with their own game and the people who play it.

... The potential to remake Byzantium, reform Austria-Hungary, swing USA fascist, turn Japan communist, and all these options are already in the game. They can't usually be accomplished quickly in a regular multiplayer game but many people wish for boosting to assist with these alternate history paths the game devs have actually put in the game...

Doesn’t matter what the devs intended. Allow us the freedom to play how we want.


Firstly, Voluntary boosting makes no sense in the context of HoI4’s setting. Until you change ideology, you’re still representing the original government. In fact, if you want your friends to boost you it makes FAR more sense for them to make risks in doing so. (For example, Neville Chamberlain’s government is hardly going to let foreign agents help Mosley into power). If your own country arrests one of your friend’s agents, think of it as the actions of the government you’re trying to overthrow.

Secondly, it DOES matter what the devs intend. This is their vision for the game and they’ve decided to go for a more difficult, realistic and dynamic way of changing someone else’s ideology. Not everyone will agree and that’s fair enough, so that’s why the game has been opened up to the Steam Workshop and you can bet that something as simple as pre-Resistance ideology boosting will be available and free in a matter of days.

Finally, please don’t be so presumptuous to speak for ‘everyone’ - you speak for your own opinion. Also please don’t use terms like ‘I think paradox needs to get more in touch... etc etc’. This isn’t a parliamentary election, I’ve had enough of those as it is.
 
Firstly, Voluntary boosting makes no sense in the context of HoI4’s setting. Until you change ideology, you’re still representing the original government. In fact, if you want your friends to boost you it makes FAR more sense for them to make risks in doing so. (For example, Neville Chamberlain’s government is hardly going to let foreign agents help Mosley into power). If your own country arrests one of your friend’s agents, think of it as the actions of the government you’re trying to overthrow.

Secondly, it DOES matter what the devs intend. This is their vision for the game and they’ve decided to go for a more difficult, realistic and dynamic way of changing someone else’s ideology. Not everyone will agree and that’s fair enough, so that’s why the game has been opened up to the Steam Workshop and you can bet that something as simple as pre-Resistance ideology boosting will be available and free in a matter of days.

Finally, please don’t be so presumptuous to speak for ‘everyone’ - you speak for your own opinion. Also please don’t use terms like ‘I think paradox needs to get more in touch... etc etc’. This isn’t a parliamentary election, I’ve had enough of those as it is.


You're completely missing the point. There are groups of players that want voluntary boosting. As I said, in every game I've ever played, dozens of people request boosts. It's standard procedure. I thought it was safe to speak for the majority of the people I've played with who enjoy boosting.

Obviously a player will represent the original government, but then why the are we given options to radically change our government? That's exactly what boosting is. It's making a change.
Just look at the new focus trees.

Your idea of the "hoi4 setting" is flawed because you're speaking as if the game is fixed in historical boundaries. It is not. We are not talking about mods here. You CAN make the Austro-Hungarian Empire if you want to. You can play monarchist Britain if you want to. You can play communist Japan. You can play fascist America. You can remake the German empire and oppose Hitler. you can do almost anything you want to and the devs continuously expand
our options for alternative history. And mostly everyone seems excited about doing something different than strictly the historical options.

So... again... There are more options to change then there are to remain historical... Which means the idea of a "hoi4 setting" being strictly historical is ridiculous.

There is nothing unbelievable about helping to change a foreign government's ideology peacefully. It's realistic. And it would satisfy the majority of every player I've ever played a game with.
 
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So China (ROC) will have Agent intelligence logos? in Last time Dev Diary I didn't see it I want to ask if it will eventually appear in the game? When This DLC is available Or in the future? I'm thinking Maybe I can use mods But They are different I hope Paradox will add it I don't opposition PRC has two logos But I mean just add one logo for the ROC please The two logos of PRC have exceeded the game end time So I think I have the right to ask for logs for ROC I don't know if you will see this I don't know if you will talk to the team for this Maybe my English has a lot of mistakes But I still have to say Because I want China (ROC) to have its own logos Although it may not happen in the end But I tried it I don't know but I hope someone else agrees me Here are some pictures, if you want, you can check

Thank you


@podcat
 

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So China (ROC) will have Agent intelligence logos? in Last time Dev Diary I didn't see it I want to ask if it will eventually appear in the game? When This DLC is available Or in the future? I'm thinking Maybe I can use mods But They are different I hope Paradox will add it I don't opposition PRC has two logos But I mean just add one logo for the ROC please The two logos of PRC have exceeded the game end time So I think I have the right to ask for logs for ROC I don't know if you will see this I don't know if you will talk to the team for this Maybe my English has a lot of mistakes But I still have to say Because I want China (ROC) to have its own logos Although it may not happen in the end But I tried it I don't know but I hope someone else agrees me Here are some pictures, if you want, you can check

Thank you


@podcat

New logos should be pretty easy to mod in, and probably won't break Ironman. So not including one for every last country is not a big deal.