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Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue talking about the 2.2 'Le Guin' update, on the topic of Trade Value and Trade Routes. As said before, we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when Le Guin is coming out, only that it's a long time away and we have many more topics to cover before then. Also as said before, screenshots will contain placeholder art and interfaces and non-final numbers.

Trade Value
Trade Value is a new value that's being added in the Le Guin update for non-Gestalt empires, representing the civilian and private-sector economies of these empires. All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants. Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry). Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
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In order for Trade Value to count as exploited, it has to fulfill two conditions:

1) There must be an upgraded Starbase in range from the system to collect the Trade Value. By default, upgraded Starbases can only collect inside their own system, but their collection range can be extended by constructing additional Trade Hub modules, with each module extending the collection range by a single system up to a maximum of 6 hyperlane jumps away. You do not need to build an orbital station to collect trade value from planets - this is done automatically if it is in range of a collecting Starbase.

2) Once collected, Trade Value needs to be sent to your capital system. This will be done automatically if the Starbase collecting is located in said capital system, but otherwise the Starbase must be connected to the capital through a Trade Route (more on that below).

Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
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Trade Routes
Trade Routes are paths are that used to connect remote Starbases to your capital in order to exploit the trade value collected there. Each upgraded Starbase can support a single Trade Route by connecting to another Starbase, which is where the first Starbase will send all of its collected trade value. For example, an empire might have a remote Starbase (we'll call it starbase A), which is sending trade value to another Starbase closer to the capital (starbase B), which in turn sends on both its collected trade and all trade sent to it by starbase A on to the capital. The player has full control over which Starbase sends its value where, and can redraw routes, though there may be an efficiency loss on a newly drawn route for a time.

This means that if starbase A collects a value of 10 from the systems around it, and starbase B collects 15, 10 value will be sent from A to B and all 25 combined value is then sent on to C (the capital) and is successfully exploited. Any trade value that fails to reach the capital, either because of lack of collection, lack of a route, or piracy (more on that below) is wasted - the empire gets no benefits from it - so it'll be especially important to ensure any populous colonies that are generating a lot of trade value are properly connected via trade routes to your capital.

Trades routes will have a special map filter showing routes, protection and piracy, and is also planned to be visualized inside the systems, but more on that later.
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(Ignore any weird visuals such as sector borders, it's just a bug)

Piracy and Trade Defense
Of course, all that lucrative merchandise being moved through space won't exactly go unnoticed by the less savory elements of your empire. Over time, piracy will begin to accumulate along trade routes, especially routes with a high degree of trade value moving through them. For each system with piracy that the trade route passes through, a certain amount of the trade value will be lost. To combat piracy, an empire can make use of a combination of Starbases and fleet Patrols. All upgraded Starbases will have a trade protection value, that is essentially a minimum amount of trade value that will always make it through any system under their protection, regardless of the level of piracy (representing heavily escorted merchant convoys). By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.
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Additionally, any military fleet can be given orders to patrol a route between two Starbases to actively eliminate pirates and reduce the amount of piracy in the systems. The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates. Overall, pirate fleets is something you will experience less often and can actively work to prevent, but will be more of an actual threat when they do spawn. We will most likely keep some sort of penalty for having a sprawling empire with a lot of unprotected connections, possibly by simply raising the amount of piracy experienced along your trade routes, or some sort of efficiency penalty. We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.
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(Yes, we know the grammar/spelling is wrong, no need to point it out - the icons are also placeholders)

That's all for today! Next week we're continuing to talk about the Le Guin update, on the topic of Decisions and Planetary Bombardment

EDIT: Since it keeps being asked, at this point we are not ready to talk about how trade trades/trade agreements with other empires will work, only that they will exist in some form.
 
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it means that you have rather dictatorial powers to decide what is good, so if you have that power, you can make a decree that this route is the official, will be state-sponsored, anything else will be impeded by the state power. The thing with individuals getting too much wealth is that they will translate said money power into political power, so it is quite oligarchic, isnt it.

...

Sorry if this got off-topic a bit :p This is just an info-thing stuck for some heads-up wall of text.

Ok, sorry. Obviously hit a nerve there. My comment was not meant as a ”communism is good/bad”. All I was trying to say is that Wiz said that they try to make the game so that there is ”local trade” and ”empire trade” or ”unofficial trade” and ”offical trade” (not sure/can’t remember what terms Wiz used). Thats in the Galactic market vs local market and the sectors having the possibilty to build their own buildings.

In the same way it would tie in better to have a trade system separate from the state, ie:
1. trade from a system goes to the trade station that is nearest, regardless of its owner (or possibly to the station that is ”strongest”, ie some kind of trade attraction value you can increase in different ways.)
2. Trade from a trade station should flow organically, not be set by players (= trade routes).

My main arguement for this is things to do in game. Right now the middle game feels empty, unless you go to war. In EU IV i have had a lot of fun avoiding war to try to maximise trade income instead. I think stellaris would be much more fun if trade was something that was organic, but still something you could manipulate, so you could have fun trying to maximise profit. It also increases interaction with other empires, if trade flows to other empires even when you don’t want it to.

Right now it seems like the system will be: build trade station. Upgrade so it collects trade from further away. Set trade route. Send ships on patrol. Done. Doesn’t have to look at trade again, until 50 years have passed, and I have expanded enough so I have to build a new trade station. Upgrade it. Set trade route. Send ships. Done.

An organic trade system outside the players control would require, or at least encourage, constant interaction, reevaluating if I have sent my ”merchants” to the right trade stations? can I get more profit from building another trade station, competing with the enemys nearby station? Can I steer more trade towards my capital somehow? Does another empire build a new trade station, throwing everything off balance? How do I cope?

And a new idea I have is: a trade station could have a cap on how much trade can flow through it. For example 50. So you have to upgrade the station to get 100 as max, and then upgrade again. In that way having a true trading hub would take some serious investment. In my thinking of organic trade, a cap would make it harder, or at least making it take much more time, to interupt/steal a significant portion of a neighbours trade.
 
Something for Wiz/Devs: Will all Bastion type starbases provide trade route defense, or is this trade route defense specific to the Hangar Bay module. Because I would much prefer if a missile and gun battery bastion also worked.

All combat modules help, but hangar bays will likely be the best at it.
 
All combat modules help, but hangar bays will likely be the best at it.

This patch sounds better and better for each new thing we learn about it. I applaud your vision, the game keeps on getting better :).
 
We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

Perhaps you could make longer trade routes more lucrative?

So a long trade route might be subject to more piracy but also more rewarding if you can secure them.

Then you could get rid of the capital-only restriction. Perhaps also the bonus could be based on the product of length * economic development of the collecting planet.

I think this would make much more sense. Most people will probably send all their trade to their capital early on, but they have the flexibility to send to a another highly developed world, and long routes are still encouraged.
 
I can't help but wonder if piracy is going to keep doing what it does in the current version of the game, namely encourage you to eventually settle all of the "gaps" in your empire. Or is something else supposed to do that instead? If that's the case, I would happily go back to gestalt empires not generating pirates at all, that always felt a bit weird to me.
 
Would it be possible for modders to make all resources be collected like trade value, with Trade Routes and the like?

It would be a really neat thing from a roleplaying perspective, even if it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.
 
Would it be possible for modders to make all resources be collected like trade value, with Trade Routes and the like?

It would be a really neat thing from a roleplaying perspective, even if it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.

Depends. Not all resources should be centralised to the capital, but having to eg feed your refinery worlds with pink rocks via trade route would work.

However food and energy would probably be way too chaotic because they’re produced and used everywhere a bit.
 
There's a limit to how long a route can be, longer routes will probably also get more piracy.

Longer routes should also have a basic inefficiency malus, since more ships will be needed to fulfill a "turnaround" withing reasonable time, and you either add more ships or lose freshness as things have to sit around and wait longer (and even so you might need to add more ships for the longest routes)

Basically an "upkeep cost" for trade routes depending upon length (and reduced by certain techs or modules) might be a good thing? Then the longest routes will not be valuable since it'd be better to gather them up in smaller trading hubs along the way. (Faking downstream trade back to the originators)
 
Are you considering any trade route mechanics around migration/ethics?

In a real system, migration would be easier along established commerce routes if allowed. This could be represented by a shorter migration wind-up for populations moving from one planet to another along a connected route, and/or cheaper forced resettlement costs. If you allow/encourage xenos to migrate to your empire, you could have some sort of bonus to the migration rate for different species if you have trade routes passing through or abutting empires you have migration treaties with.

For ethics: there is already (or was at least) a distance modifier for ethics divergence, so the concept isn't necessarily a new one to the game. I could see two ways to use this system, maybe through a policy selection based on what type of empire you want to run. Option A would be to use trade routes to suppress divergent ideas, e.g. systems along trade routes get more frequent visitors from imperial inquistors/thought police, restrictive travel policies prevent political dissidents from traveling off-planet, etc. If you are more egalitarian empire, maybe you chooseOption B, which promotes the movement of ideas, e.g. people get to travel freely and share ideas, xeno-rights activists on Covfefe Prime can expand their mailing list to any empire citizen, etc...
 
Sounds great. Could you maybe add an option to designate a trade capital other than your empire capital, A la EU4 whereby you can redirect and collect from trade to places other than your empires homeworld?
 
What will replace piracy as the mechanism to discourage ugly borders?

Trade value. Trade-focused starbases collect trade value in a disk-shaped area around themselves and need to be close enough that these spheres will tend to overlap, leading to a nice blobby shape where systems inside are better than the systems outside without using a hard limit.

Now all you need is piracy rating getting a bonus from nearby uncontrolled systems because they offer hideouts.
 
Kind of wonder how this would interact with the border mechanic though; it would be incredibly annoying to have to deal with an enemy that can raid you and then flee back across the border, leaving you unable to retaliate because the other empire has closed their borders to you. If raiding mechanics are implemented I feel there definitely needs to be either an automatic casus belli allowing you to declare war on the raiders, or the ability to ignore closed borders for a period of time and conduct punitive expeditions/counter raids of your own.

Raids in CK2 are annoying in part because you have no real way to get back at the raiders except by declaring war on them. You could kill the raiding armies, for sure, but they could freely sack your holdings while you have no way to respond in kind.

If a bunch of alien corvettes cross into my empire's space and start plundering trade routes and generally making a mess of things, I should damn well be able to send a fleet across their borders and start blowing up their infrastructure and bombarding their planets in retaliation.

It's a good question. Honestly I can see this either being amazing or awful, but I lean amazing.

You're definitely right. Raiding should trigger its own casus belli, maybe like if you win the war they can't send privateers for 10 years or something. Still... not to join the realism crowd, but it's definitely a tactic armies have used throughout history. You raid, then retreat behind a friendly border.

It might be an awesome diplomatic/military question. All they're doing is stealing a little bit of trade here and there. Is that really worth launching a whole war over? Or what about if another empire is letting their ships through to raid you? Etc.

Or it might be a frustrating game of whack-a-mole, and nothing more than another way of declaring war.

Personally I think it would probably be great. It would give you a real reason to need border patrols, especially with a semi-hostile border, and I kind of love the question of diplomatic incidents. I think it would be exciting to have to figure out what to do about provocations from a neighbor to the west, or to take advantage of another empire's war to get rich off their under-protected border. It would certainly raise the stakes for having border patrols.

Maybe a good way to avoid incredibly frustrating whack-a-mole would be to require privateer fleets to have a leader? That would help keep spam down somewhat.
 
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You're absolutely right because FTL is probably impossible.

Wormholes who's endpoints originate in the same spacetime event and are constrained to move slower than light but which stay the same approximate length internally no matter how far away the endpoints are, are consistent with current physics and allow effective FTL at the cost of having to build a road first.

That's actually pretty much the best-case scenario: civilization can start and spread, but the rate is capped so it has incentive to develop it's area and it won't overrun the universe which will instead be overrun by an infinite number of civilizations which have evolved from some initial likely low density to saturation through colonization. So it's basically like Stellaris, except moving a ship to a non-Gated system takes years at the absolute minimum but once there it can drop the wormhole endpoint it's been carrying and effectively constructing a controlled Gate allowing instant travel to and from any other Gate.
 
It's a good question. Honestly I can see this either being amazing or awful, but I lean amazing.

You're definitely right. Raiding should trigger its own casus belli, maybe like if you win the war they can't send privateers for 10 years or something. Still... not to join the realism crowd, but it's definitely a tactic armies have used throughout history. You raid, then retreat behind a friendly border.

It might be an awesome diplomatic/military question. All they're doing is stealing a little bit of trade here and there. Is that really worth launching a whole war over? Or what about if another empire is letting their ships through to raid you? Etc.

Or it might be a frustrating game of whack-a-mole, and nothing more than another way of declaring war.

Personally I think it would probably be great. It would give you a real reason to need border patrols, especially with a semi-hostile border, and I kind of love the question of diplomatic incidents. I think it would be exciting to have to figure out what to do about provocations from a neighbor to the west, or to take advantage of another empire's war to get rich off their under-protected border. It would certainly raise the stakes for having border patrols.

Maybe a good way to avoid incredibly frustrating whack-a-mole would be to require privateer fleets to have a leader? That would help keep spam down somewhat.

I think this would work particularly well because of the defensive emphasis of the 2.0 game.

First, it would give aggressive options short of launching an all-out attack. I can do something against my neighbor even if I'm not in a position to actually invade.

Second, it would create more of a dilemma for the targeted player. It's one thing to fight their ships in border raids, but when is it worth trying to take on their starbases and defenses? You could have actual escalation of hostilities.

Personally, the more I think about it, the more I think this would be a terrific mechanic. But privateers should require something specific. Whether they're a different class of ship or have some other restrictions, you shouldn't be able to just set a fleet of battleships to "Raid" and send them over the border.
 
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