Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

[Monphat]

That's precisely what I meant by how resources from trade might vary by empire. I think I'd like if you could turn some of it into consumer goods, for example, to have high living standard empires rely more on trade.

Have you considered the idea of completely revising living standards and consumer goods mechanics, maybe even getting rid of them? With all the changes to make economy feel more dynamic and natural, those abstractions begin to look outdated and arcade-like.

"Press a button to make everyone happy in one day" seems strange if you want a more complex and intelligent system.

Maybe you can make trade value itself consume minerals (so mineral sink remains intact + it makes way more intuitive sense) and make trade value unequally consumed by people holding different jobs, resulting in different levels of happiness and other values. That would be a way to model social inequality that you can either embrace (high crime, high productivity), tolerate or fight (low crime, low productivity).

 

[Lys91]

Questions: is there something ala EU trade nodes, where building longer trade chain increase value (i.e. nodes in the chain add +X%)? As you try to generate high-level value network piracy may increase. You could balance so you have to make a trade-off between trade income and cost of keeping done piracy? Is that something that would make sense? The % may also be dependent on building, so you may want to build regional trade hub to which you link neighbouring zone to, then send from there to the capital. If we are fancy we could tie that in the political system, where a sector with a high trade value is more likely to be independent (and/or diverges towards a certain ideology). Just a thought.

It may already play somewhat like that, I was not very sure how starbase/planet improvement played into this.

 

[TGK72]

So the "trade points" can be stolen by pirats but food points still magically transported

This,
Trade routes "SHOULD" be extended to act as food import/export lines too. If a planet is importing food, and the Trade Hub supplying it gets cut off then the planet should begin starving in turn.

Same for resources. If a mining world gets cut off from the rest of the trade network, then the minerals should cease too, not only if the planet gets under siege

 

[Ridixo]

@Wiz Good Dev Diarie, very good indeed. I just wonder, why needs the trade value be delivered to the capital? Can't just build some sort of trade hub world, think NY stock exchange turned ecunemopolis. Your capital doesn't need to be your final destination for all the trade. Maybe you can make some planets into trade hubs, you send the rings of providence there and they convert them into energy. I don't want to bring a WH40K example but there, in the Holy Terra you don't see too much trade income, unless psykers is now a currency, the planet is just a bureaucratic ministry planet-wide.

 

[arc2611]

Questions: is there something ala EU trade nodes, where building longer trade chain increase value (i.e. nodes in the chain add +X%)? As you try to generate high-level value network piracy may increase. You could balance so you have to make a trade-off between trade income and cost of keeping done piracy? Is that something that would make sense? The % may also be dependent on building, so you may want to build regional trade hub to which you link neighbouring zone to, then send from there to the capital. If we are fancy we could tie that in the political system, where a sector with a high trade value is more likely to be independent (and/or diverges towards a certain ideology). Just a thought.

It may already play somewhat like that, I was not very sure how starbase/planet improvement played into this.

The problem with this is that there is nothing to stop modifiers from snowballing out of control, because trade nodes and routes are dynamically generated and can be manually redrawn by the player, unlike EU4 where trade routes and nodes are fixed and there's a hard cap on the number of merchants you have.

 

[grandad1982]

There is already the event that transforms the Earth in a Wormhole, so...

Keep your towel close by

 

[Zetesofos]

@Wiz For the purposes of "transmitting" Trade Value, what determines the number of hops a Trade Hubbed Starbase can make to deliver their payload?

I'm pretty sure it says that it's hyperlane jumps, with each trade hub extending that range by one level, similar to listening posts.

 

[Crexxer]

@Wiz If Trade Value is a resource that can be transformed into other resources, why wouldn't I focus on assigning more jobs to resource gathering rather than making Trade Value? Why would I make Clerks in my empire when I can make more Energy Gatherers?

 

[ParasiteX]

If Trade Value is a resource that can be transformed into other resources, why wouldn't I focus on assigning more jobs to resource gathering rather than making Trade Value? Why would I make Clerks in my empire when I can make more Energy Gatherers?

Maybe because buying resources with energy credits is not nearly as efficient as just directly gathering it?

 

[Crexxer]

Maybe because buying resources with energy credits is not nearly as efficient as just directly gathering it?

If that was the case, then why trade at all?

 

[Judge_Holden]

I actually excreted joyous fluids when reading this DD, this is exactly the change in the game I have been desperate to see.
Although, since I made suggestions along these lines in other threads, I will be taking FULL credit for their implementation.

@Wiz will the introduction of tangible trade routes also involve the transportation of resources such as food and minerals between the point of production (be this a planet or mining station) to the point of consumption?

I ask this because as one of the key gameplay changes of 2.2 is to allow the player to specialise planets towards the production of certain resources, the current system would create no risk or downside to this strategy.

This is because these resources are currently synthesized directly to the top panel of the UI, which then can be drawn upon in an instant to construct or feed anything in the whole galaxy. So for instance, if a planet in the core sector is producing all the food for hyper-specialised planets in other distant sectors, there is no feature currently that represents the extensive (and very vulnerable) logistics operation that would be required to move this food through lightyears of possibly unprotected space.

It would be a superb feature in my view if the proposed changes of developing space infrastructure to protect trade value would also be extended to include strategic and other resources that are used directly by the state.

 

[ParasiteX]

If that was the case, then why trade at all?

Because it possibly something you can do in addition to normal mining operations. As if i'm not mistaken, you also gain trade value from regular resource deposits.

EDIT: And as the comment below mentioned. Resource gathering is capped by available deposits. So Trade value is simply an additional thing you can have with your normal resource gathering to further optimize your overall economy.

 

[arc2611]

If Trade Value is a resource that can be transformed into other resources, why wouldn't I focus on assigning more jobs to resource gathering rather than making Trade Value? Why would I make Clerks in my empire when I can make more Energy Gatherers?

1. Clerks aren't capped by resource districts, unlike resource gatherer jobs. That's one big reason, there.

2. If you can flip trade value production by changing a policy, that would give you more flexibility. So for example, as a militarist you might be able to enact a policy called "Requisition Civilian Goods" or whatever, turning all trade value into Alloys at the cost of not getting anything else. Once you're at peace, you quickly flip back to converting trade to consumer goods and energy in order to stop your economy from imploding.

 

[Highlordelliot]

We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

Collection points could be like the tiered trade centers in eu4 where, minor and medium centers of commerce within your empire that collect a portion of the trade but aren’t as good at it as the trade centers or the capital or core worlds. They could collect a fraction of the the trade but can’t make the most of it due to being cut off from the main network.

 

[Zetesofos]

I actually excreted joyous fluids when reading this DD, this is exactly the change in the game I have been desperate to see.
Although, since I made suggestions along these lines in other threads, I will be taking FULL credit for their implementation.

@Wiz will the introduction of tangible trade routes also involve the transportation of resources such as food and minerals between the point of production (be this a planet or mining station) to the point of consumption?

I ask this because as one of the key gameplay changes of 2.2 is to allow the player to specialise planets towards the production of certain resources, the current system would create no risk or downside to this strategy.

This is because these resources are currently synthesized directly to the top panel of the UI, which then can be drawn upon in an instant to construct or feed anything in the whole galaxy. So for instance, if a planet in the core sector is producing all the food for hyper-specialised planets in other distant sectors, there is no feature currently that represents the extensive (and very vulnerable) logistics operation that would be required to move this food through lightyears of possibly unprotected space.

It would be a superb feature in my view if the proposed changes of developing space infrastructure to protect trade value would also be extended to include strategic and other resources that are used directly by the state.

Well, one could theorize that you may have jobs on a planet that will convert trade value on a system INTO resources, such as food or minerals. So, while not directly exchanging descreet goods, it seems like you might have a situation where goods are 1) produced on planet A 2) those farmers/miners also produce trade value 3) that trade value is shiped downstream to planet B 4) that trade value is converted back into raw goods.

 

[Kukumarro]

Just an idea, additional collection points could be assigned at will but with severe losses. For example, if your empire is cut in half, you could have a collecion planet that gives you 1/2 of the collection. If you set up a third collection point, both non-capital collection points collect at 1/3 efficency, and so on.

Also, this could lead to independence movements in the future. An "independentist area" could be associated to each non-capital collection point, and be composed by all the planets whose trade ends up in that collection point. It would represent one group of planets (or individual planet) that trade between them but not with the capital, paying a tax on their commerce, eventually wondering why should they pay that tax at all.

 

[Shadeseraph]

Suggestion for multiple collection points: add a building (customs office) that allows a planet to collect trade value at a decreased rate (I. E: 50%). You can go for shorter routes to collection points, but they'll cost you. Only your capital will give you 1:1 trade conversion.

Incidentally, I'd add multiple of these, with each building being able to convert trade value into different resources, and only one building of this type could be built per system.

Personally, I'd extend this to apply to other resources as well, but I understand that having to define networks for all your resources and ensuring that inflow, consumption and outflow for each planet is fine can easily become too micro intensive

Edit: hah, kukumarro had pretty much the same idea. The idea of secondary collection points generating unrest and desiring independence is very cool, too

 

[arc2611]

I personally like the "everything routes to the capital" system, even if it's not the most realistic. Quite simply put, can you imagine what the trade map would look like when you have a dozen different end nodes and every starbase needs to decide which of those end nodes it should be sending its trade to?

Having everything route to the capital might be an unrealistic abstraction, but it keeps everything neat and comprehensible.

 

[Druski]

Don't know if it's been mentioned but sounds like trade routes might just be something that barbaric despoilers could take advantage of in some way.

For example, if despoilers should be able to flag fleets as 'pirate' (privateer?) which can then go and raid other nations' trade routes during peacetime (even across closed borders). Sure you may know it's coming from them, but you might not be in a position to declare war on them over it. As a bonus (though we havent heard anything about how it works yet) they may also get to gather slaves from it

 

[SnakeInATopHat]

You don't understand how exited I am for this update.