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Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue talking about the 2.2 'Le Guin' update, on the topic of Trade Value and Trade Routes. As said before, we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when Le Guin is coming out, only that it's a long time away and we have many more topics to cover before then. Also as said before, screenshots will contain placeholder art and interfaces and non-final numbers.

Trade Value
Trade Value is a new value that's being added in the Le Guin update for non-Gestalt empires, representing the civilian and private-sector economies of these empires. All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants. Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry). Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
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In order for Trade Value to count as exploited, it has to fulfill two conditions:

1) There must be an upgraded Starbase in range from the system to collect the Trade Value. By default, upgraded Starbases can only collect inside their own system, but their collection range can be extended by constructing additional Trade Hub modules, with each module extending the collection range by a single system up to a maximum of 6 hyperlane jumps away. You do not need to build an orbital station to collect trade value from planets - this is done automatically if it is in range of a collecting Starbase.

2) Once collected, Trade Value needs to be sent to your capital system. This will be done automatically if the Starbase collecting is located in said capital system, but otherwise the Starbase must be connected to the capital through a Trade Route (more on that below).

Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
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Trade Routes
Trade Routes are paths are that used to connect remote Starbases to your capital in order to exploit the trade value collected there. Each upgraded Starbase can support a single Trade Route by connecting to another Starbase, which is where the first Starbase will send all of its collected trade value. For example, an empire might have a remote Starbase (we'll call it starbase A), which is sending trade value to another Starbase closer to the capital (starbase B), which in turn sends on both its collected trade and all trade sent to it by starbase A on to the capital. The player has full control over which Starbase sends its value where, and can redraw routes, though there may be an efficiency loss on a newly drawn route for a time.

This means that if starbase A collects a value of 10 from the systems around it, and starbase B collects 15, 10 value will be sent from A to B and all 25 combined value is then sent on to C (the capital) and is successfully exploited. Any trade value that fails to reach the capital, either because of lack of collection, lack of a route, or piracy (more on that below) is wasted - the empire gets no benefits from it - so it'll be especially important to ensure any populous colonies that are generating a lot of trade value are properly connected via trade routes to your capital.

Trades routes will have a special map filter showing routes, protection and piracy, and is also planned to be visualized inside the systems, but more on that later.
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(Ignore any weird visuals such as sector borders, it's just a bug)

Piracy and Trade Defense
Of course, all that lucrative merchandise being moved through space won't exactly go unnoticed by the less savory elements of your empire. Over time, piracy will begin to accumulate along trade routes, especially routes with a high degree of trade value moving through them. For each system with piracy that the trade route passes through, a certain amount of the trade value will be lost. To combat piracy, an empire can make use of a combination of Starbases and fleet Patrols. All upgraded Starbases will have a trade protection value, that is essentially a minimum amount of trade value that will always make it through any system under their protection, regardless of the level of piracy (representing heavily escorted merchant convoys). By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.
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Additionally, any military fleet can be given orders to patrol a route between two Starbases to actively eliminate pirates and reduce the amount of piracy in the systems. The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates. Overall, pirate fleets is something you will experience less often and can actively work to prevent, but will be more of an actual threat when they do spawn. We will most likely keep some sort of penalty for having a sprawling empire with a lot of unprotected connections, possibly by simply raising the amount of piracy experienced along your trade routes, or some sort of efficiency penalty. We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.
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(Yes, we know the grammar/spelling is wrong, no need to point it out - the icons are also placeholders)

That's all for today! Next week we're continuing to talk about the Le Guin update, on the topic of Decisions and Planetary Bombardment

EDIT: Since it keeps being asked, at this point we are not ready to talk about how trade trades/trade agreements with other empires will work, only that they will exist in some form.
 
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So, this means that there will be a new viable path for empires in Stellaris, that being Trade Federations. That's great!
 
The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates.

That's too bad, I actually rather liked the new piracy system.

Would it be worth changing that, instead, to "Independents"? Same mechanics, except what pops up is an independent base that might/might not be hostile? That way you can move piracy to the new system, while keeping a deterrent against snaky empires. An independent system that's left alone long enough could perhaps take on its own personality, like an enclave or a minor empire in some other 4X games. It might even give some interesting unpredictability to the board.

Also, will it be possible to have trade routes represented by actual ships in motion? It would bring more life to star systems and would feel much more dynamic to hunt or protect actual trade vessels than a purely abstract route. The x% lost to piracy could be the percent of trading vessels that pirates hunt down. (And, while speculative, something like this could open up room for privateers and raiding vessels in future updates.)
 
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Plundering trade routes is something we want to do but haven't yet figured out exactly how it will work. At the very least you can cut their routes by targeting starbases.

Is there also going to be something like a naval blockade? Cut a very lucrative trade route for the enemy for example by blocking a system in the middle?
 
Three questions:

1) Will you be able to script trade to work with multiple resources simultaneously? Instead of converting it to minerals, for example, have it be 50% minerals and 50% energy?

2) What happens if a planet is within range of multiple stations? Will the trade value be split evenly between them, split in proportion to the size/importance of the starbases, choose one to go to (preferably the one with lower piracy en route), or count double?

3) Will trade hubs still produce some energy on their own and if not what will the effect of Offworld Trading Companies be?
 
Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
Sorry, but this is a bit strange / redundant since there're already the EC(s), which you want to enforce as the galactic currency-/money-units since it's only possible to buy / sell resources via EC(s) on the galactic market, but now, you're introducing trade-value, which will be converted into any resources, too ? ...

I would still separate EC(s) into energy (resource) and "Credits" (currency / money), you generate / terminate "Credits" in the cases, that you sell / buy resources on the galactic market and I would use the trade-value to "manipulate" the galactic-market-fees or/and to "steal" "Credits" from other empires or/and to "produce" additional "Credits" in general.

All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants.
I don't really know, whether it makes sense or not, that all POPs generate trade-value ...
It seems, that some POP-Jobs produce a mess of different resources, whereas I would rather prefer, that 1 POP-Job produces 1 resource, so that in this case, I would only allow the merchants to produce trade-value ...

Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry).
Similar thoughts like the ones in regards to "all POPs generate trade-value" ...
 
Quite simply put, can you imagine what the trade map would look like when you have a dozen different end nodes and every starbase needs to decide which of those end nodes it should be sending its trade to?

It would look like the regular galaxy map with small spaceships or bright dots moving over each hyperspace link in the direction and numbers indicative of the shipments of the selected resource over said link. If dots, you could select multiple goods and color-code the dots.

If done right, you could pretty much just see your empire's logistics flow at a glance and it would also make the galaxy seem more alive.
 
He mentioined adding additional collection points, but sector capitals would make the idea system to centralize around.

Perhaps if a Planet/System (with a station) in a Sector, that has trade flowing through it AND has a Governor, some small % of that Trade Value could be used by that Sector.
That would be a very cool way to provide any owned Sector some resource income indirectly by directly placing the Route through a "Governed" Sector... :)
 
Piracy and crime, profitable trade routes that can be sabotaged, pop division by strata, need for stability on planets, sectors that actaully make sense. I sense a great potential for espionage. My bet is that the next large update will focus on politics espionage and diplomacy. ( on seocond though espionage will probably be a DLC, but Im ok with that)
 
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The concern I admittedly have with this is inflation. As-is the game is pretty flooded with resources, especially energy. And with the HUGE caveat that numbers are WIP, still most of the screenshots we see have trade numbers in the double digits for relatively small empires.

@Wiz will resources and income be rebalanced to prevent runaway incomes? Do you have a sense yet of how?

And fwiw, you could have gestalt empires use trade if you wanted to, at least if the concern is realism. Modern trade theory is far more focused on comparative advantage than mercantile self interest, and that applies to pretty much any organizing principle. Even a hive mind would generate wealth by creating supply chains and taking advantage of local conditions to increase efficiency.

Anyhow! I was actually surprised. I had thought that trade would involve the marketplaces. My personal guess had been that trade value would equate to a percent-discount on the internal or galactic marketplaces. (I.e. if I have 50 trade value, then I might get a 5% favorable marketplace adjustment. Something like that). Will be interesting to see this in practice.
 
I think the system in its planned way will lack in liveliness. Ever played SoaSE: Rebellion ? different game, old now, but ... Each system with a trade station that was directly connected to another hyperlane made a trade route. The longer the route, the higher the income. Trade ships were spawning. Also, refinery ships did too and carried metal/crystal for refinement in 1 jump away max. Sometimes civilian ships could be seen. Pirates stole income in cash, as well as by destroying merchant ships, you had lowered amount of trade based probably on the number of ships active. Game slowed down if you had the trade ships shown as icons or if you played mods. Piracy and pirates were then more felt unlike a statistic that feels very europa universalistic. If you perhaps changed the pirates, including their cruisers disappearing, instead of exploding, FE ships to have proper explosions too, so they dont just go poof with that old unpatched effect. Changes like them using ship types/hulls of whoever supports them, or if they utilize your own tech. Not necessarily engined and turreted asteroids. If so, make them shoot parts of their asteroid hulls too. I imagine the rocks are pretty huge.

Stations with range increase and ion cannon should provide something too to the percentage. Station tier upgrade, fleet power accounts for something ? Pirating could happen outside the range ofc, within the system. It feels strange, however, if some mobile force is there, there could be some use of small system-only space-policing units that dont necessarily requite even a hyper engine. Or stuff like, ship type smaller than a corvette ? Between a fighter and a corvette. Drones maybe. It depends on how big or serious the piracy thing is, but without a visual representation of small-scale piracy, making a few ships disappear here and there, it does feel abstract and can escalate into their fleets emerging ex percentage and RNG.

all you currently have in space is stations, military ships. Lack of a visual even if sprites, attribute to a lack of activity of its own. Trading of resources, transportation, all that is untouchable. Planetary food, resource stockpiles, even possibly resource allocation, not just oh I have this amount in my bank account, so it is immediately disposable. Shipyards could have a resource/workforce flow to them too. Or do ships build themselves or are shipyards automated, incl. its maintenance ? U know those extrasmall robots.
 
@Wiz
Great DD!
Some questions:
1. Will the systems that are on a trade route but not a starting point get any benefits? Being a transshipment point can be quite lucrative - passing ships will spend on fuel, maintenance, provisions, spacers will spend their wages etc.
2. In earlier DD it was mentioned, that budgets can be allocated to sector governors. Will we be able to allocate part of locally generated or transshipped trade value to them? IMO this can play especially nice into feudal realm role-playing - a powerful local potentate setting up his own tariffs on passing trade.
3. I know that international trade is a matter for future DD, but may I suggest that a levy on trade can be a wargoal or something demanded by a marauding horde - i.e pay us 10% of your trade income or else.
4. Will the empire that is a host to galactic market get a boost to trade value?
 
Devs: The new pop system seems to make lategame less of a framey lagfest
Community: Could you put 100's of civilian ships moving aimlessly across trade routes because they're immersive?

As someone who already can't play lategame on the largest galaxy settings without lategame stuttering, pls no kill my ability to play the game at all.
 
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I love what's being done here and I'd like to piggy back on it (though I'm not sure what it'd do to game balance). In real life, the most powerful, wealthy, and technologically advanced civilizations were those who sat in the center of trade routes. Why? Because the mere regular contact between cultures came with new ways of thinking, new technologies, and new cultural practices. Open civilizations (whether through friendliness or imperialistic force) got the benefit of these new thoughts in a way that closed civilizations did not.

Which brings me to my question: would it be possible to get a stacking buff to research for techs that a trade partner has that you don't? This is on top of explicit research agreements. Maybe something like a default point per month in all techs a partner knows depending how tight the trade relationship is?
 
So, this will make things more interesting in peacetime in my mind, as even once you run out of empty unclaimed systems you'll still have pirates to contend with, and it gives good reason to not just park your fleet in a few specific places.

Will this help make players and the AI have to break their fleets down from doomstacks to smaller groups for such things? This could very easily serve to help spread out wars into less big large brawls when the fleets finally find each other.
You can draw trade through other empires so long as you have open borders.

This will make being friendly with other nations a big thing.

Something that comes to mind @Wiz from this- are you going to make it be a possible thing for nations to THREATEN to close borders and therefore cut off trade routes if you have a disconnected Empire?
 
The trade route defense really seems like a missed opportunity to re-introduce non-starbase static defenses in a more useful capacity than they used to have. The various freely-placed defense platforms the game had would fit in with establishing a trade route and placing defensive stations along the way between Starbases. Platforms to guard parts of the route and give some cover to trade ships until the fleet patrols could get there would add a bit more narrative to the trade system and make it feel a bit more realized than just with fleet patrols. Platforms being a more passive measure to discourage piracy along the trade routes, with fleets the more active and mobile element of the defense to actually stop any problems after they occur.
 
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Will the trade route map mode also include something to indicate the collection range of starbases? I can see counting out ranges getting old very quickly.
 
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